John 20:23

[ServantofGod]

My grandmother(who is Roman Catholic) and I have many long discussions of theology and the doctrines of grace. Most recent discussions have revolved around John 20:23:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

I run into a problem in our discussion because of this issue: Christ gave the apostles this authority to declare God's judgment on sin, and to the Roman church, the popes and priests have obtained this authority. My question is two(three?)-fold:

1. When, unless I lack an understanding of this verse, did the power and authority of the apostles end?

2. If we still have the authority to declare the forgiveness sins: Who can and can't declare the forgiveness sins? and how can one explain that we do not act IN THE PLACE OF Christ, but merely His spokespeople?



(I don't think I made any sense...)

 

[Contra_Mundum]

1. Roman (il)logic asserts the continuance of "apostolic authority" in an "apostolic succession" that is not unlike the Jewish-genetic succession of the Old Testament priesthood. Unfortunately (for their argument) Paul effectively demolishes any intrinsic worth in one's pedigree in Rom 2:28:29 "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." If it is by faith, and grace-bestowed thereby, and not by genetic (or organic-institutional) bestowal, then Rome has no claim to be the "one, true church," incapable of either declension or (deductively) reformation. (Interestingly, Paul warns the church of ROME that they might be "broken off for unbelief"--so, can Rome fall or not? Rom 11:19-21)

So the issue is: which church(es) continue to preach the apostle's doctrine? Rome preaches another gospel, hence, she has no claim on the apostles--even if her pretentious claims to "succession" were demonstrable.

It is Christ, by his APOSTLES (who being dead, still speak, Heb. 11:4), who have the authority to remit/retain sins. They, because they spoke the Word of Christ they had from him, as well as the permission from him, and inspiration of his Spirit. This kind of authority is nowhere transferable--which is why there are no more apostles: no more direct commissions. This kind of "authority" died with the final apostle.

2. We do still have the authority to declare the truth of the apostle's doctrine, Luke 10:16. On the authority of Jesus Christ in his Word, we can declare what he has already declared: that those who believe on his name, who trust in his substitutionary death, are forgiven, justified, and receive his Spirit, Jn 5:24. It is for the listener to appropriate Christ's Word for himself, by faith.

We do no more than warn the unrepentant, and comfort the repentant sinner. Frankly, the apostle's themselves had no more authority than this, in the final analysis. They might receive some special revelation concerning someone's heart, but even in this they could not go beyond what Christ himself said through them. How many RCC priests are getting revelation from God about the truth or falsity of the confessor's words?

It is excessive for them to further assert that in their own office they exercise this power over men. They make themselves utterly indispensable to the laity. It is a system we can call "the dictatorship of the church." This the Reformers clearly understood, as did Protestantdom for several centuries.

Hope this is truly helpful.

 

[Robert Truelove]

Also, the following verse is instructive...

"18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:18&19 (ESV)

Rome claims it has the 'keys of the kingdom' due to apostolic succession and therefore its councils have the full authority of God...

However...if this verse is translated literally it reads...

"18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'" (Young's Literal Translation)

Notice, the authority is not given to the church and then God agrees with its rulings. Rather, the authority is through God to the church. "shall be having been bound in the heavens", "shall be having been loosed in the heavens". That means that the church has authority to seek the mind of Christ in its use of the keys, and having come to the mind of Christ, has authority to act upon it.

This means the church is fallible and its rulings are open to scrutiny. The church may make a ruling that is contrary to the mind of Christ; the ruling having not 'first been determined' in heaven.

My grandmother(who is Roman Catholic) and I have many long discussions of theology and the doctrines of grace. Most recent discussions have revolved around John 20:23:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

I run into a problem in our discussion because of this issue: Christ gave the apostles this authority to declare God's judgment on sin, and to the Roman church, the popes and priests have obtained this authority. My question is two(three?)-fold:

1. When, unless I lack an understanding of this verse, did the power and authority of the apostles end?

2. If we still have the authority to declare the forgiveness sins: Who can and can't declare the forgiveness sins? and how can one explain that we do not act IN THE PLACE OF Christ, but merely His spokespeople?



(I don't think I made any sense...)

 

[ServantofGod]

This kind of authority is nowhere transferable--which is why there are no more apostles: no more direct commissions. This kind of "authority" died with the final apostle.

Would I be correct to assume that Matthew 16:19: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed on earth." had ended when Peter died? It is cross referenced with John 20:23. Or does the Roman Church correctly assume that the authority still rests in the church(not necessarily the Roman Church though) as given to Peter(the rock upon which the church was built) by Christ?

 

[BobVigneault]

Excellent reply Pastor Bruce!

The RC priest pronounces absolution but as in so many of their rituals there is an element of magic or formula. The penitent does something and then the priest speaks his formula and they believe the priest has exerted authority over sin. He's moved heaven anew and cleansed a sinner.

The pastor, as Bruce has said, draws his authority from the Word. The Pastor should pronounce an absolution of sin but it is just that, a pronouncement. It's a declaration of the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross, of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. We need to hear this every week because in our crusty hearts we think there is something more we need to do to be forgiven.

We are all sinners but some are more successful in their struggle against sin. The ones who are least successful think there is still something good inside them that can overcome sin in our own strength. They think a priest or a book or the right list of imperatives can make them a better person

The ones who are most successful realize that we are completely and utterly ruined, so ruined that we can't remember the benefits of the cross from one day to the next - so ruined that we can only fall upon the mercy of the Creator and find assurance only in the finished work of the Savior. The Christian walk is a simple equation - hopelessness plus faith.

 

[ServantofGod]

Also, the following verse is instructive...

"18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:18&19 (ESV)

Rome claims it has the 'keys of the kingdom' due to apostolic succession and therefore its councils have the full authority of God...

However...if this verse is translated literally it reads...

"18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'" (Young's Literal Translation)

Notice, the authority is not given to the church and then God agrees with its rulings. Rather, the authority is through God to the church. "shall be having been bound in the heavens", "shall be having been loosed in the heavens". That means that the church has authority to seek the mind of Christ in its use of the keys, and having come to the mind of Christ, has authority to act upon it.

This means the church is fallible and its rulings are open to scrutiny. The church may make a ruling that is contrary to the mind of Christ; the ruling having not 'first been determined' in heaven.

My grandmother(who is Roman Catholic) and I have many long discussions of theology and the doctrines of grace. Most recent discussions have revolved around John 20:23:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

I run into a problem in our discussion because of this issue: Christ gave the apostles this authority to declare God's judgment on sin, and to the Roman church, the popes and priests have obtained this authority. My question is two(three?)-fold:

1. When, unless I lack an understanding of this verse, did the power and authority of the apostles end?

2. If we still have the authority to declare the forgiveness sins: Who can and can't declare the forgiveness sins? and how can one explain that we do not act IN THE PLACE OF Christ, but merely His spokespeople?



(I don't think I made any sense...)

I see you were answering my questions as I was asking them!

 

[BobVigneault]

See this thread

This kind of authority is nowhere transferable--which is why there are no more apostles: no more direct commissions. This kind of "authority" died with the final apostle.

Would I be correct to assume that Matthew 16:19: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed on earth." had ended when Peter died? It is cross referenced with John 20:23. Or does the Roman Church correctly assume that the authority still rests in the church(not necessarily the Roman Church though) as given to Peter(the rock upon which the church was built) by Christ?