John MacArthur interview with Ben Shapiro

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Joseph Knowles, Dec 3, 2018.

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  1. Joseph Knowles

    Joseph Knowles Puritan Board Freshman

    Here's a short clip from the interview in which Dr. MacArthur says that Christians and Jews worship the same God:

    I think that's clearly wrong (see John 8:19 among other verses). Can anyone recommend any resources for helping explain this issue to a friend that doesn't see it that way?
  2. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 1 John 2:23.

    "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." John 5:23.

    Any good book dealing with a faithful exposition of John 4, (those worshippers which the Father seeketh) on worship, CLEARLY indicates that the Jewish Faith does not have the Father because they do not have the Son. They do not worship the same God. They do not worship rightly from the get go.

    Can a carnal mind "not" be at enmity with God?

    Can a carnal mind "understand" the Scriptures?

    Though some reprobated Jewish teachers from old commented on practical living in a manner that may be consistent with Matthew 5-7, doesn't mean they worship the same "God".

    On an academic level, if "a person" collected just the data of Theology Proper of the OT, they could come away with a "theology of God in the OT". That doesn't mean they are true worshippers, or that they have the Father. They are merely fact checkers.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  3. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

    Judaism is a human system. It is not to be confused with the religion of the Old Testament.
  4. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    It's one of those things, given MacArthur's other attributes, how he gets to this conclusion. I am sure it is based on some Dispensational principle and how the Jews fit into the scheme of things under that theology. Two gospels.
  5. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    He just can't let go of his dispensationalism and it gets him into trouble at times. However, he is faithful man of God even if he's a Baptist or something ;)
  6. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    I watched/listened to about 2/3 of the interview last night. I quit when JMac got going on the "latent antisemitism" of, well, as he seems to see it: anyone who isn't a dispensationalist. Anyone who doubts the distinction between "Israel" and the "church."

    His interpretation of church history in general is paper thin, if you ask me, but pretty close to standard Baptist boilerplate (from about half a century ago)--apologies to my Baptist-brethren on this site. Basically, what we have is a fortuitous agreement between the Romanist and the Restorationist read of history. JMac agrees with Rome's extravagant claims... he just positions himself on the opposite side.

    And that is what is also the case with his stated views on the OT, and borne out by a representation of a "Judeo-Chrisitan God." There is a segment of Christianity--sometimes even found in Reformed (or reformdish) circles, but endemic to dispensationalism--that agrees with the Pharisaic understanding of the OT. They just position themselves on the opposite side (at least until the church age is past).

    Not wholly or entirely--I suspect JMac does not agree with the classic-Dispensational view of the intrinsic-efficacious nature of animal sacrifices, or the possibility of perfectly-legal obedience and meritorious covenant-keeping. But enough, that he grants that world history must conclude with: a carnal-Jewish kingdom of glory as the chief of the nations, with Christ as its political head leading armies of killers and overseeing a temple regularly burning animal carcasses... for a thousand years.

    After all, if you disagree with that interpretation, or think the NT gives the correct OT reading (not a stop-gap reinterpretation, only for while Israel is in the ditch grinding gears) that identifies all OT revelation as typological, and which fulfillment goes beyond the formal constraints of frame-of-reference analogues--"obviously" you aren't taking the Bible seriously.

    I thought there was more good than bad in the early going of the interview. I have, and still do appreciate the majority of JMac's preaching/teaching effort. And, for what it's worth, he does not soft-peddle the call to repent and believe in Jesus for salvation, even for his equally unapologetic Jewish interviewer. However, I think that JMac's voiced consent to the Jewish-nationalist, genetic-superior, worldly-hope expectation plugged into the OT text undermines the call he makes.
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  7. Ryan&Amber2013

    Ryan&Amber2013 Puritan Board Junior

    Honestly, I watched the clip and was quite impressed with Johnny Mac. Are you sure you guys aren't misunderstanding what he's saying? I got the impression that he was saying the God of the OT is the same God as the NT, which we have to agree is accurate. In the interview he didn't say we worship the same God, he is saying we have the same God. Yes, there is a difference in the way the Jews and Christians perceive God in the present day, but I think John M. is saying that the Scriptures still point to the one true God and are authored by Him.
  8. TheInquirer

    TheInquirer Puritan Board Freshman

    I haven't followed MacArthur in quite some time. Is that something he usually teaches or was that a passing comment that may have been a mistake?
  9. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    Yes, to the extent that we hear his terms and they resonate with us truthfully, he's saying that much.

    But with the words that follow, and considering his interlocutor--a self-described devout Jew--while he does get to the question: "What does a person do with Jesus?" as the distinctive line-in-the-sand concerning the religious divide, I'm still not convinced (per what we have to watch) that his statement doesn't sound like an affirmation that Jews and Christians both serve Jehovah, the one true and living God. I think JMac is guilty, even if it merely follows inadvertently from his terms.

    Jesus is clear that apart from faith in him, no one is serving that LORD of OT faith. JMac kind of says both things. But even with qualifications, at best standard Judaism is participating in pronounced 2C violation. And you cannot find any nice regard in the OT for the golden calf--not at Sinai, not in the northern tribes. [In both cases, the claim is that the true God, Jehovah, may be worshiped by other means]

    Now, I think it's important to realize that in spite of the long-format interview (the version I saw at first was 1:10) and the pause-in-conversation commercials, the whole show (and the clip in particular) is still an EDITED product, even if "lightly" edited. The short clip has "some" context, but in the nature of the thing is less-than full context. Therefore, JMac could have included qualifications and nuance that were left on the cutting room floor. That has to be considered when watching a video. This is Shapiro's product.
  10. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    I was thinking the exact same thing.
  11. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Perhaps I did not listen to the discussion carefully enough, as I was doing something else at the time, but my impression was the same as Ryan's.
  12. Josh Williamson

    Josh Williamson Puritan Board Freshman

    I agree. I think MacArthur's language was "clunky," but it seems he was trying to show that God is the same in both the OT and NT. The mere fact he went on to stress that those in the OT were saved in the same way as those in the NT, and called Shapiro to trust in Christ, shows that he makes a clear distinction between the teaching of Judaism and Christianity.

    Overall, I think the interview went well, and MacArthur impressed me with many of his answers, although, I did disagree with several. Christ was proclaimed, so for that I give thanks.
  13. JM

    JM Puritan Board Professor

    The other JM was clearly articulating Dispensationalism.

    Yours in the Lord,

  14. Rutherglen1794

    Rutherglen1794 Puritan Board Sophomore

    I thought he did a great job; it was a joy to watch, regardless of some theological differences.

    I am thankful it was him in that seat instead of many others.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  15. Ryan&Amber2013

    Ryan&Amber2013 Puritan Board Junior

    Grant, I'm pretty sure MacArthur would agree. I think he's simply saying the God of Martin Luther is the same God of Moses.
  16. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

    If he wanted to say the the God of the OT and the God of the NT is the same God, he could have said that. He didn't say that. He spoke of Jews and Christians having the same God.
  17. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Puritan Board Sophomore

    There's your typo. Isn't his name John MacArthur? :think: Diminutives for such a prolific man of faith, esp. of very great age, seems a little saucy. ;)
  18. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    Well that would be your opinion.
  19. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    I watched the full video (1 hour 10 min. long). If you pay attention to what Shapiro says (even in the above video) seems that even when he reads the NT he sees more continuity between the 2 testaments (specifically the words spoken by Christ while on earth) than most Dispensationalist.

    In my opinion, Johnny Mac does the best when he says that Jesus must either really be the Messiah or a blasphemer and false teacher. This exposes the issue with Jewish people who claim that Jesus was just a good teacher.

    At 1hr 4min. in the original video, Johnny Mac does qualify slightly by saying that you do not really know God unless you know Christ because God can only be known through Christ. However, at 1:04:20s, Johnny Mac says that he sees Judaism and Christianity as "perfectly complimentary".

    I believe if you will watch the last 10min of the below video, you will see Johnny Mac qualify things a bit more (though he will still maintain dispensational distinctives). I hope this is helpful, I now digress.:detective:
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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