John Piper and the 2nd Commandment

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CalvinandHodges

Puritan Board Junior

So? You delete my post, but you engage in the same activity? Hmmm. Some here are not Epistemologically Self-Conscious.

Grace and Peace, brother,

Rob
Um, I'll excuse your presumption, but I did not delete your post, thank you very much. Nor did I ask anyone else to do so. I don't appreciate the accusation. And I also have no idea what your beef is.

Check out post #10 dude - if you did not do it - then you agreed with it. Which makes the "accusation" stick.

All I am simply pointing out is that "accusations" from administrators and moderators should apply to themselves as well. That is my "beef"

Now that I have made myself clear - I will end this conversation.

Blessings,

Rob
 

Kim G

Puritan Board Junior
Check out post #10 dude - if you did not do it - then you agreed with it. Which makes the "accusation" stick.

All I am simply pointing out is that "accusations" from administrators and moderators should apply to themselves as well. That is my "beef"

Now that I have made myself clear - I will end this conversation.
Well, Sir (as opposed to dude), I was looking for some post tonight, and didn't realize. Furthermore, I don't even remember what it is that you wrote. Whom here, specifically, have I called a Liar? Go back and read very carefully. Insofar as I am able to tell, I haven't "accused" anyone here specifically of lying. I will not defend myself any further, but one can go back and read all my posts and see if my character is replete with offensiveness and accusations.
Josh said, "To do X is to lie about Y." He made a statement of truth.

He did not say, "You did X and you are a liar." This statement may be true but is not particularly edifying.

Let's not make this into something bigger than it is. :)
 

ManleyBeasley

Puritan Board Junior
I think Piper is giving the Passion movie a fluff job here. I guess I'm sort of off topic but there is something that really bothers me. I'm not a Piper fan nor am I a Piper enemy. I think he's written some good stuff but what bothers me so much is that it seems that no matter what the man says people are in total shock when he is wrong. Many people get defensive of him too. Let's face it. He made some stupid, uncalled for statements on this mp3. I get so tired of seeing people defend their heroes. I love reading Gordon Clark but I realize that he got way off course on some things. I refuse to defend his mistakes. But any time someone goes after Piper or Sproul or McArthur (the list goes on) people try to gloss it over. Face it: the man made some disturbing comments. I mean, "God broke the Second Commandment when he became incarnate?!?!?!" Not only is this an outrageous statement but it calls for rebuke and correction that he would receive if he wasn't one of the "Untouchables." If I were a Baptist I would call him on it.

I personally feel very indebted to both Dr. Piper's preaching and writing. That being said, I believe he was in error in what he said here. It seems with him and the other men you mentioned that many will go very far to defend them (perhaps because of the debt they feel to them) and others go very far to find disagreement with them. We should (in my opinion) be willing to disagree with them and also remember we all err at different times and will all likewise need to be corrected.
 

kalawine

Puritan Board Junior
I think Piper is giving the Passion movie a fluff job here. I guess I'm sort of off topic but there is something that really bothers me. I'm not a Piper fan nor am I a Piper enemy. I think he's written some good stuff but what bothers me so much is that it seems that no matter what the man says people are in total shock when he is wrong. Many people get defensive of him too. Let's face it. He made some stupid, uncalled for statements on this mp3. I get so tired of seeing people defend their heroes. I love reading Gordon Clark but I realize that he got way off course on some things. I refuse to defend his mistakes. But any time someone goes after Piper or Sproul or McArthur (the list goes on) people try to gloss it over. Face it: the man made some disturbing comments. I mean, "God broke the Second Commandment when he became incarnate?!?!?!" Not only is this an outrageous statement but it calls for rebuke and correction that he would receive if he wasn't one of the "Untouchables." If I were a Baptist I would call him on it.

I personally feel very indebted to both Dr. Piper's preaching and writing. That being said, I believe he was in error in what he said here. It seems with him and the other men you mentioned that many will go very far to defend them (perhaps because of the debt they feel to them) and others go very far to find disagreement with them. We should (in my opinion) be willing to disagree with them and also remember we all err at different times and will all likewise need to be corrected.

I agree with you. I guess it just seems mind-numbing to me that he made a statement like the one we're discussing here. But, as you said, we all err sometimes. Goodness! I wish my life had a rewind button to undo some things I've said! :lol:
 

py3ak

Unshaven and anonymous
Staff member
Sometimes preachers say things for rhetorical value that won't stand up under analysis. In that way, verbal unorthodoxies may be quite consistent with theological accuracy. But there is no denying that they are rather dangerous.
 

kalawine

Puritan Board Junior
Sometimes preachers say things for rhetorical value that won't stand up under analysis. In that way, verbal unorthodoxies may be quite consistent with theological accuracy. But there is no denying that they are rather dangerous.

Yea, I wondered if that was what he was intending to do. If I remember correctly he said it rather bluntly and forcefully as to make the point that if God can create a body to "house" God, we can paint a picture to represent him. Sheesh! Anyway... that's some strong rhetoric. Still, I'm not branding JP a heretic.
 

py3ak

Unshaven and anonymous
Staff member
Well, if that was his point I retract my remarks about rhetoric, as being inapplicable in this context. That is simply a bad argument.
 

ManleyBeasley

Puritan Board Junior
I think Piper is giving the Passion movie a fluff job here. I guess I'm sort of off topic but there is something that really bothers me. I'm not a Piper fan nor am I a Piper enemy. I think he's written some good stuff but what bothers me so much is that it seems that no matter what the man says people are in total shock when he is wrong. Many people get defensive of him too. Let's face it. He made some stupid, uncalled for statements on this mp3. I get so tired of seeing people defend their heroes. I love reading Gordon Clark but I realize that he got way off course on some things. I refuse to defend his mistakes. But any time someone goes after Piper or Sproul or McArthur (the list goes on) people try to gloss it over. Face it: the man made some disturbing comments. I mean, "God broke the Second Commandment when he became incarnate?!?!?!" Not only is this an outrageous statement but it calls for rebuke and correction that he would receive if he wasn't one of the "Untouchables." If I were a Baptist I would call him on it.

I personally feel very indebted to both Dr. Piper's preaching and writing. That being said, I believe he was in error in what he said here. It seems with him and the other men you mentioned that many will go very far to defend them (perhaps because of the debt they feel to them) and others go very far to find disagreement with them. We should (in my opinion) be willing to disagree with them and also remember we all err at different times and will all likewise need to be corrected.

I agree with you. I guess it just seems mind-numbing to me that he made a statement like the one we're discussing here. But, as you said, we all err sometimes. Goodness! I wish my life had a rewind button to undo some things I've said! :lol:

Me too!:lol:
 

CalvinandHodges

Puritan Board Junior
Greetings:

The use of the term "image" as it refers to Jesus Christ carries a very specific sense:

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, Heb. 1:3.

I will leave it to the commentators to eke out the sense in this passage.

The use of the term "image" in the 2nd Command has a very different sense:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, Ex. 20:4.
It seems obvious to me, at least, that the term "image" is being used in two different fashions in these two different passages.

However, when Piper claims that these two different senses of the word "image" are actually one and the same - he is equivocating on the word "image."

Wikipedia defines "Equivocation" thus:

It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).

There is a good example given as well:

A feather is light.
What is light cannot be dark.
Therefore, a feather cannot be dark.
I hope this clarifies without being "overly harsh."

Grace and Peace,

Rob
 

Confessor

Puritan Board Senior
I think JP spoke extemporaneously - when he does so, sometimes he boo-boos. That's what this is - send Grudem an email and he'll set him straight. :)

Thank you for that link! I have been searching for a while for a "common sense" justification of not using bad language, i.e., how to explain to someone why the Bible says not to use bad language. Wayne demonstrated it with the analogies to body odor and unclean shirts.
 
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