John Piper, Guns, Self-Defense

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Puritan Board Sophomore
It is estimated that firearms are used in defense of self or others in somewhere between 200k and 2M incidents per year in the US. They are good at saving lives, especially of the weak and otherwise defenseless, which is what Christians (like Piper) should strive for

Logan - but what you are ignoring here is the increased threat that broad gun ownership presents in the first place. It's hardly suprising that something like 200k-2M self defence incidents involve guns when there are 300 million of them in the US. If the threat is as prevalent as you suggest I would have thought that number would be much higher.

If this all comes down to a numbers game, then you have bigger problems than a rogue magistrate or self-defence. Any cause that goes viral could raise a strongly armed militia overnight - I would have thought this potential to be a bigger threat.

So you didn't bother to read any of the links to studies I posted awhile back in the thread. This is one line of evidence in our arsenal, its not merely conjecture as you think it is. Interact with the evidence and post a well informed response please.

Interact with either Piper's article, or my defense of it and come back when you have a well informed response please.

But I digress - this is puerile.


Puritan Board Senior
Why so high and mighty Logan? Do you hope to chide me like a schoolboy and that I would cower?

No Matt, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I hope I never act "high and mighty" and ask forgiveness if I do. But so far you've not given much indication that you're trying to understand or listen and I humbly ask you to think this over. I'm sorry you take offense but nothing you've said so far has led me to believe that you are well informed on these issues or have a sound Scriptural argument, and yet you're very persistent in arguing it! That's something to very seriously consider.


Puritanboard Clerk
Interact with either Piper's article, or my defense of it and come back when you have a well informed response please.

How many times are we going to go through with this? Piper's article is ethically and logically incoherent. There is nothing left to say.


As a bystander to this conversation, a non-owner of guns, and someone who lives in neither the USA nor the Commonwealth of Australia, I have to agree with Jacob and Logan at this point. I am disappointed by what has transpired here.


Puritan Board Senior
But I digress - this is puerile.
Sure is. What are you hoping to gain ? Is it he who has the last word wins the argument ? I think you've made your point ......... at least I get it. You are an anti gun enthusiast. I'll pray that if the barbarians come to your personal defenseless gate law enforcement gets there before you're harmed.

Reading Pastor Piper's argument I cannot say it doesn't have merit. On the other hand, being persecuted for Christ's name aside, if the Savopoulos family had a firearm to protect them from the monster who brutally tortured and murdered them, would it have been sinful for them to defend themselves ?

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
I don't know if all that can be said has been said or whether everything that can be said has simply not been said by everybody.

That said, it is my opinion that the horse stinketh.
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