judgment

[Breadloaf]

The OT talks a lot about national sins, judgment of nations, etc. Also see Matt 25.32ff in the NT. Also, Jesus judges the churches in Revelation.

Is there any basis to say that there is a judgment of groups - churches, nations, anything but individuals? If so, what does it look like to be a saint in a poorly-judged nation? Dispensationalists are the only ones who seem to say much about it (and they have a lot to say!)

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Breadloaf
The OT talks a lot about national sins, judgment of nations, etc. Also see Matt 25.32ff in the NT. Also, Jesus judges the churches in Revelation.

Is there any basis to say that there is a judgment of groups - churches, nations, anything but individuals? If so, what does it look like to be a saint in a poorly-judged nation? Dispensationalists are the only ones who seem to say much about it (and they have a lot to say!)

Judgment to the nation is used to sanctify the individual believer. The believer is never under the wrath of God, though he may experience the Fathers discipline. Whatever the case, God uses the same acts of judgment against the wicked, to refine the faith of the believers. He works it to their good. And believers in such nations, remain testimonies of God's work among them. They live and proclaim God's word, in order to save some still, and further condemn those who refuse to repent. Even in the Babylonian exile, there were believers exiled with the wicked Israelites. And God sent them prophets to encourage them and teach them. He doesn't forsake His remnant, no matter what He may do to the country they dwell in.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Originally posted by puritansailor

Originally posted by Breadloaf
The OT talks a lot about national sins, judgment of nations, etc. Also see Matt 25.32ff in the NT. Also, Jesus judges the churches in Revelation.

Is there any basis to say that there is a judgment of groups - churches, nations, anything but individuals? If so, what does it look like to be a saint in a poorly-judged nation? Dispensationalists are the only ones who seem to say much about it (and they have a lot to say!)

Judgment to the nation is used to sanctify the individual believer. The believer is never under the wrath of God, though he may experience the Fathers discipline. Whatever the case, God uses the same acts of judgment against the wicked, to refine the faith of the believers. He works it to their good. And believers in such nations, remain testimonies of God's work among them. They live and proclaim God's word, in order to save some still, and further condemn those who refuse to repent. Even in the Babylonian exile, there were believers exiled with the wicked Israelites. And God sent them prophets to encourage them and teach them. He doesn't forsake His remnant, no matter what He may do to the country they dwell in.

Two things. First, Breadloaf... you answer your own question... the examples you give are precisely the basis we have to argue for a judgment of groups.
Secondly, as Patrick noted, the righteous may be disciplined but they are not under the wrath of God. Now, to the world it may look like the righteous are suffering just as much as the wicked... but God's design in their suffering is different from his purpose in the suffering of the wicked. (See Isaiah 57:1-2 and compare it within the larger context.)

 

[TimV]

What it written about the seven churches in Asia? A perfect example in the NT.