KJV Bible: How to overcome the language barrier?

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tellville

tellville

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For those of you who started reading the King James Bible later in life, how did you overcome the language barrier? And are you confident that you have actually overcome the language barrier?

For those who have grown up on the KJV, how did you teach others to use the KJV in such a way so that they actually understand what they are reading to the same level that someone would understand a modern translation?
 
I started reading the KJV much later in life, but had no problems with the language. The newer ones give me problems because they don't use good sentence structure, and they are written like a 'dick and jane' book. In my humble opinion
 
Mark,

I overcame the language barrier by switching to the ESV!

Try it...it works.

:book2:

Blessings,

Robin
 
Grymir said:
I started reading the KJV much later in life, but had no problems with the language. The newer ones give me problems because they don't use good sentence structure, and they are written like a 'dick and jane' book. In my humble opinion
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The Gospels and the narrative parts I can understand especially if you already had a high reading level. But what about the Prophets? And all the poetic passages?
 
Hast thou a language problem? Wherefore dost thou partake in such a calumnity?

We actually find that the language issue is a means of teaching the children more thoroughly. You don't just rattle off a chapter and be done with it. Instead, we get through a few verses, stop to explain and dissect (and if need be I will open up Matthew Poole on the subject) and then discuss. It moves along more slowly, but the depth is unmatched (we use the Geneva, not the KJV, but same issue).
 
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This is a useful thread. I hope others have suggestions, as I would like to be better at reading the KJV.
 
I like the KJV because it says things to a penetrating depth that no other translation does, with a full use of the language. I also like the fact of its exact word-for-word translation with words added by the translation in italics. This is very precise.

When I'm not sure of a word, I take a good dictionary and look it up and it is suprising how many of the terms have historical meanings still in the dictionary. This is a superb way to expand one's command of the English language, as well as to understand the text.
 
I would read a "looser" version for getting bigger chunks of Scripture down at once and seeing the "big picture" - and then go back and go verse by verse with the KJV.

I like to read the Bible in several version at once anyway (i.e. have KJV, ESV, NIV and The Message, and Living Bible all out in front of me opened to the same book).
 
I've honestly never had a problem reading the KJV. Only two issues have come up. 1.) words I don't know, which I can define with a dictionary, and 2.) dry reading (especially the law sections or parts of the major prophets), but this is the case with me in any translation I've used. It wasn't because I didn't understand the text.

I usually switch between the KJV and the Geneva. Newer 'dick and jane' translations have their place but I just can't palate them. in my opinion, they have no substance and I always come away wanting to see what the KJV says. Purely a preference issue? Maybe. I think the KJV just brings out nuances of scripture that newer translations leave out in the pursuit of simplifying the text.

The KJV does demand a slower, deeper, focused reading. This is a great part of its value. You have to interact with the text. Popcorn translations are like trying to watch the movie version of a book. They just seem watered down. They perhaps get the theme across but miss most of the content.

My advice. Commit to the KJV, engage it, fall in love with it. If you just can't understand it then move to the ESV or something similar, even the NKJV.

I had a particularly hard time understanding the doctrines of grace at one point, they were just hard reading from reformed sources. On the other hand all the arminian stuff floating around was very understandable. Should I have chosen what was easiest to digest? Obviously not! The issue of bible translations is not directly comparable to the issue of that theological point but I think it points out that just because it's difficult, that's no reason to ditch it.

-----Added 12/1/2008 at 10:23:31 EST-----

Are we talking about lay persons who will probably never read a theology text or are we talking about persons who read Calvin, Augustine, and other similar authors?

Someone who is studying calvin and the like should have no problem with the KJV in my opinion. :2cents:
 
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The KJV does demand a slower, deeper, focused reading. This is a great part of its value. You have to interact with the text.
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From Job 30

29I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
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So, how would you interact with this text? I lived in a similar area to Job for 9 years. A little help? 'Cause I don't relate.
 
I won't claim to know how to exegete that for you. I haven't studied the passage in-depth. However, do the following translations shed that much more light on it?

(NKJV) I am a brother of jackals, And a companion of ostriches.

(NIV) I have become a brother of jackals, a companion of owls.

(MSG) I howl with the jackals, I hoot with the owls.

(AMP) I am a brother to jackals [which howl], and a companion to ostriches [which scream dismally].

Plus, it might have been my mistake for not mentioning it but, I never said one should read the bible without consulting any other material such as commentary, customs, history, etc.
 
The NKJ and ESV make perfect sense to me. They fit the context and the best scholarship.

Now, do any KJ onlies have any objection to admitting it would be better for people to use the ESV for that verse than the KJV?
 
Scott1 said:
I like the KJV because it says things to a penetrating depth that no other translation does, with a full use of the language. I also like the fact of its exact word-for-word translation with words added by the translation in italics. This is very precise.

When I'm not sure of a word, I take a good dictionary and look it up and it is suprising how many of the terms have historical meanings still in the dictionary. This is a superb way to expand one's command of the English language, as well as to understand the text.
Click to expand...

For even greater insight try a Webster's 1828 Dictionary.
 
Why is the translation of תּנּים as jackal any more valid than dragon accept for the fact that most people understand what a jackal is and probably not what the use of dragon means. Is there a reason behind why jackal is prefered? How do we know that's what the hebrew meant? I don't know, I'm not a hebrew scholar. What is the best scholarship behind it?

BTW I'm not "KJV only." I just think the KJV is a valuable translation. Do you feel that we should jetison the KJV in favor of a more contemporary translation Tim?
 
tellville said:
For those of you who started reading the King James Bible later in life, how did you overcome the language barrier? And are you confident that you have actually overcome the language barrier?

For those who have grown up on the KJV, how did you teach others to use the KJV in such a way so that they actually understand what they are reading to the same level that someone would understand a modern translation?
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Mark,

I have used the KJV since I was a youth, and I use it for Scripture reading in our Lord's Day worship services, congregational/family Bible studies, and personal Scripture reading.

I also use the KJV in a Bible study at work during lunch hour with Christians and non-Christians in attendance. Versions used by others are the NIV, The Living Bible, ESV, and the Holman Christian Standard. I explain the meaning of the archaic and difficult words as we go along, which quite often matches one of the other translations being used. I often reference the ESV when studying a passage.

I do not see the KJV language as being much of a barrier with a teacher involved and, as others have previously indicated, I feel the KJV actually gives a deeper meaning to many of the passages. I have found the greater challenge is getting the group to understand the "greater meaning" of the passage being studied, along with it's application, rather than the comprehension of individual words.

Without a teacher, I agree the language of the KJV can be somewhat of a challenge. A person that is reading scripture privately must have a good dictionary, as Scott stated in a previous post, and look up EVERY word that he doesn't understand. No different than trying to understand a newspaper article about how the sub-prime lending market has affected our economy. The average person will need to look up some of the words to understand their meaning, and thus gain a foundation to understand the fuller meaning of the subject being presented by the writer.

I'm not a KJV-only guy, I just prefer the KJV and often use the NKJV and ESV for comparison. In my humble opinion, the key to gaining more understanding is praying for God to shed light upon His Word, slowing down when reading, prayerfully meditating upon passages, looking up words (in a good Bible dictionary) and ideas (good reformed commentaries), and discussing passages with knowledgable brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
tellville said:
For those of you who started reading the King James Bible later in life, how did you overcome the language barrier? And are you confident that you have actually overcome the language barrier?

For those who have grown up on the KJV, how did you teach others to use the KJV in such a way so that they actually understand what they are reading to the same level that someone would understand a modern translation?
Click to expand...

I was saved in a church that uses the NIV. I find it outstanding to read and understand the narrative in one sitting (no endlessly looking up arcane words and words that have changed meaning). It is a "big picture" translation and I like that since that is the way we learn naturally as people: get the big picture set and then begin to fill in the details.

The King James, Strong's Concordance, J. Vernon Magee, and Matthew Henry help to fill in many of the details.
 
When I read difficult passages (such as portions of Job), I will consider the Hebrew and its (sometimes) various meanings, comparing it with other translations to get a sense of how others understood it, as well consulting commentaries.

Concerning the passage TimV brought up, the Hebrew underlying the KJV dragons has various meanings, from sea "monsters", jackals, serpents (and I would think reptiles, great lizards). Although perhaps archaic, I would accept dragons, in my mind thinking serpents or lizards, as well as owls (Owls of Middle East - The Owl Pages), as they kept Job company at night in his anguished, lonely, hopeful vigils.

I have a confidence in the King James, or rather, in the Lord's providential preservation of it, and so stick with it even when it is difficult.

But I certainly use various helps.
 
Here's a possible solution, recommended to me by a fellow ARP pastor (Steve Woods), who is a KJV man. It's called the Defined King James Bible, and it might be what your looking for.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Keep the excellent rhythm, cadence, and reliability of the Faithful Old King James Bible. Simply add to it footnoted definitions of uncommon words and what do you get? You get the Defined King James Bible. This Bible uses footnotes to define virtually all of the archaic, obsolete, difficult, or uncommon words in the King James Bible
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Defined King James Bibles
 
tellville said:
For those of you who started reading the King James Bible later in life, how did you overcome the language barrier? And are you confident that you have actually overcome the language barrier?

For those who have grown up on the KJV, how did you teach others to use the KJV in such a way so that they actually understand what they are reading to the same level that someone would understand a modern translation?
Click to expand...

Not intentionally, but unintentionally I over came the "barrier" by studying Old English and Middle English in college. So if you're looking to go that route, a goode version of The Canterbury Tales will help you out, preferably, one with the Middle English on one page, and the translation on the other. After that, KJV is a piece of cake. However, with that in mind, I don't ever recommend the KJV because words do not mean the same thing today as they did when the KJV was translated. If you want an accurate definition of a word, Webster is going to help, but only in part. The Oxford English Dictionary is going to give you the best historically accurate definition of a difficult word to the time period. That said, it is not necessarily hard words that will trip you up, it is usually the "common" words that change over long periods of time (like the word "nice"). Because some words could have a historical nuance that we just simply don't know, I don't generally recommend the KJV, and thus would find the only recommendation to learning true KJV to be a handy, 22 volumed OED with you - or an online subscription! If you're interested in spending effort, why not just go straight to the original?!
:2cents:
 
SolaGratia said:
Jacob,

Where is the word "nice" found in the KJV?
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I'm not finding any, but that wasn't the point in noting the word. It's a historical example of a contemporary word to the translation of the KJV that has changed its meaning over time. Sorry if that was confusing.
 
Another way is to do a side-by-side comparison of the KJV with a more modern translation. For example, there is a handy parallel Bible with both translations side-by-side:


Amazon.com: NIV/KJV Parallel Bible: Books

Somehow, I still find myself doing Scripture memorization and meditation in KJV as well as proof-texting (such as for the Confession).

For family worship, small groups, and church, as well as most personal Bible Study, I use the NIV or ESV. But when a passage needs clarification or deeper study, I take the time to compare with the KJV, and even go back to Greek.

While it is not true in every case, it seems when KJV says it , it says it best. And if you lead others in this way, you will be amazed at how it expands their command of the language, but even more importantly, how it focuses on the meaning of every statement and proposition in God's Word.

It's also comforting that in spite of translation and language difficulties, God superintends His Word in every generation. The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding, and in spite of our limitations, we can be sure of "getting it" in God's purposes.
 
Concerning the passage TimV brought up, the Hebrew underlying the KJV dragons has various meanings, from sea "monsters", jackals, serpents (and I would think reptiles, great lizards). Although perhaps archaic, I would accept dragons, in my mind thinking serpents or lizards,
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There are other words for lizards and snakes in OT Hebrew. The KJV uses dragons for the same reason it used unicorns. They didn't have as much knowledge as we do.

So, is there anyone out there who thinks that the KJV is better than the ESV when it comes to this verse in Job? I'm not asking of the KJV is acceptable or not.
 
tellville said:
For those of you who started reading the King James Bible later in life, how did you overcome the language barrier? And are you confident that you have actually overcome the language barrier?

For those who have grown up on the KJV, how did you teach others to use the KJV in such a way so that they actually understand what they are reading to the same level that someone would understand a modern translation?
Click to expand...

The 'language barrier' stems from the fact that the original languages must be translated in order to read them in English. This 'barrier' exists, then, in all English translations. The 'modern' English versions may be easier reading for modern readers but they do not have the accuracy of the KJV. Therefore, the 'modern' versions require helps in order to get at the original just like the KJV does. There is no way around the fact that learning God's Word requires effort.

For what it is worth, in my brief eight year experience teaching, the words in the KJV that need further explanation are pretty much the same as their 'modern' contemporaries. Whether you use 'propitiation' or 'expiation' or 'sacrifice of atonement' in Rom 3:25, it is going to require explaining. :2cents:
 
Besides the excellent advice already provided, may I also suggest listening regularly to Scourby's reading and to read along with it. The cadence in his speech provides helpful clarity.
 
Dragon is the correct translation of the passage in Job. The word means a marine or land monster. Evolutionary mindset has made the 'dragon' a myth, whereas dinasaurs (dragons) probably existed in the middle ages. A jackle is not a marine or land monster, so would not be well translated.

So yes, I would be one person who thinks the KJV beats out the ESV in translating the passage in Job.

On another note ---------------------

The KJV is biblical english, not the common english of the day, even in 1611.
 
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