Knox Seminary Fiasco continues

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The majority of the Knox board members, suspended or fired a professor for what they thought was an extreme view of typology; I don't know if that was the only reason, and this may be an over simplification. The session reversed that decision, and six board members resigned, including R. C. Sproul Sr. Eventually the Stated Clerk ruled that the Book of Church order governed the matter and that the session didn't have the right to overturn the decision (again, this is over simplifying; read the links). The session invited the board members who resigned to unresign, without any stipulations or qualifications. Two weeks later, evidently because the board members who did not resign were suspicions of the motives of the returning members, required a letter to be signed stating the returned members repented and other binding stipulations. Whatever one may think of the issue at root of the suspension/firing; this is just shameful to ask them to come back without stipulations and then, oops, when they took the offer, decide to impose conditions. Again, this is condensed and you should read the two links for the full story and the first link for the documentation from each side.
 
I see that one of the requirements was to recant their charge that this fellow's teaching was unconfessional. That's asking too much, in my opinion.
 
Another important issue in the charge against Gage (and I am making NO judgment on whether the charge was accurate or not: I'm still undecided as to which side is correct. Men I deeply respect are on both sides) was whether or not he taught something equivalent to the fourfold interpretation of the Medieval period, which would be contrary to WCF 1.9.
 
Ok, I agree that it is wrong to allow the board members back, only to add further stipulations afterwards and I would also like to state that church politics are always shameful and this incident reeks of church politics.

Having said that, I'm curious: Was Knox Seminary originally set up as a "ministry" (for lack of a better word) of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church? Was the Session of CRPC accurate in saying that the Board of Knox Seminary is a Standing Commission of CRPC? If so, how could the stated clerk of the PCA offer an assessment in favor of the board of Knox Seminary? It seems to me that this is a local church issue.

Another question I would want answered before making up my mind on this topic is: Who has the right to discipline professors at KTS? Does that responsibility fall to the board of directors or does the Session of CRPC alone have that authority?

Also, I would encourage everyone to withhold judgment until we hear both sides of the issue.
 
If the resignations were not accepted, then they never officially left the board. They are still on the board.
 
As a Californian, I have NO clue as to the corporate culture of Coral Ridge or Knox. However, my guess is that whenever a larger-than-life leader of the stature of Kennedy disappears from the scene, you should expect some pretty significant missteps by people trying to adjust to the political environment absent the founder. Look at any large church of whatever polity deal with the death or retirement of a founder or long-term pastor. These kinds of foolish actions are sadly all too common. I pray that they don't do anything to besmirch the reputation of a fine school or some very good people. Sheesh!
 
sastark said:
Ok, I agree that it is wrong to allow the board members back, only to add further stipulations afterwards and I would also like to state that church politics are always shameful and this incident reeks of church politics.

Having said that, I'm curious: Was Knox Seminary originally set up as a "ministry" (for lack of a better word) of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church? Was the Session of CRPC accurate in saying that the Board of Knox Seminary is a Standing Commission of CRPC? If so, how could the stated clerk of the PCA offer an assessment in favor of the board of Knox Seminary? It seems to me that this is a local church issue.

Another question I would want answered before making up my mind on this topic is: Who has the right to discipline professors at KTS? Does that responsibility fall to the board of directors or does the Session of CRPC alone have that authority?

Also, I would encourage everyone to withhold judgment until we hear both sides of the issue.
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The board cannot be a commission (standing or otherwise) of the Session. In order to be on a commission (except as an invited ex officio guest, like the preacher at an ordination), you must be a member of the court. In order to be a member of the Session of CRPC, a man must have been a member of CRPC and have been elected an elder from that congregation. It is manifestly not the case with the Teaching Elders (who are members of their respective Presbyteries), and don't think it is the case with the non-TEs either. Furthermore, as Dr. Taylor states, the Session has no authority over Dr. Gage (himself a member of a Presbytery) either to condemn or exonerate. All of this is standard polity - and does not touch on the substantive issue of Dr. Gage's teaching.
 
Women on Seminary Board of Directors?

Q: Why is/was there a female on the board of directors at Knox?

A: Accreditation. The Association of Theological Schools (ATS), the accrediting authority/body for many seminaries and theological schools, to include Knox, mandates the following in its Standards, paragraph 8.3.1.3:

“Members of the governing board shall possess the qualifications appropriate to the task they will undertake. In accordance with the school’s purpose and constituencies, the governing board’s membership should reflect diversity of race, ethnicity, and gender.”

You can refer to the actual ATS Standards via this link:
Standards
 
Essentially, the ATS mandates that the governing board of a theological school must reflect the diversity of the student body. Knox has both male and female and numerous ethnicities comprising the student body. Therefore, the board of Knox must reflect this reality.
 
joshua said:
Can someone write a brief pargraph of all this in terms where someone who is still a novice to Presbyterian polity can understand it? Who did what and what was wrong and...?
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Why worry about it, Josh? Really, this whole matter should be kept within PCA circles. I don't see that it is my business to know about it or make judgements. I am sure that within the PCA the mechanisms exist to sort this matter out properly.
 
JonathanHunt said:
joshua said:
Can someone write a brief pargraph of all this in terms where someone who is still a novice to Presbyterian polity can understand it? Who did what and what was wrong and...?
Click to expand...

Why worry about it, Josh? Really, this whole matter should be kept within PCA circles. I don't see that it is my business to know about it or make judgements. I am sure that within the PCA the mechanisms exist to sort this matter out properly.
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:up: I wonder if I'm committing the lust of the eyes in even caring. The desire I have to hear scandals in the church is probably a vain curiosity. Some knowledge may be useful for prayer but how much do I need to know?
 
These cautions are certainly generally appropriate; however, let's do Josh the favor of letting him judge his own conscience in asking for a summary of what exactly has transpired.
 
NaphtaliPress said:
A significant recension at Reformedmusings is posted.
An Error and Repentence « Reformed Musings
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Now THAT is an excellent example of repentance - if we get nothing else out of all this.

Jonathan, et al:

I really think when there are people out there blogging about R.C.Sproul and Rick Phillips and Coral Ridge - it's going to raise questions. I think Josh and the others just want whatever facts are out there. There don't appear to be too many facts actually. Poor R.C. Sproul - I wish he could have a peaceful old age, but it doesn't seem meant to be.
 
NaphtaliPress said:
The majority of the Knox board members, suspended or fired a professor for what they thought was an extreme view of typology; I don't know if that was the only reason, and this may be an over simplification.
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It also might have had something to do with this:

While there were other objections to Dr. Gage’s style of teaching such as the description of spiritual regeneration as the “spiritual rape” of an individual, and other ill advised comments, the primary reason for the certain Members resignation was Dr. Gage’s hermeneutical interpretation as being counter confessional.
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How disgusting to make such a statement. That sounds like something one would hear from the Caners or some Arminian prof. Isn't this a reformed institution?
 
Bandguy said:
While there were other objections to Dr. Gage’s style of teaching such as the description of spiritual regeneration as the “spiritual rape” of an individual, and other ill advised comments, the primary reason for the certain Members resignation was Dr. Gage’s hermeneutical interpretation as being counter confessional.
Click to expand...

How disgusting to make such a statement. That sounds like something one would hear from the Caners or some Arminian prof. Isn't this a reformed institution?
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I think John Donne said it best:
Batter my heart, three person'd God; for, you
As yet but knocke, breathe, shine, and seeke to mend;
That I may rise, and stand, o'erthrow mee,'and bend
Your force, to breake, blowe, burn and make me new.
I, like an usurpt towne, to'another due,
Labour to'admit you, but Oh, to no end,
Reason your viceroy in mee, mee should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weake or untrue.
Yet dearely'I love you,'and would be loved faine,
But am betroth'd unto your enemie:
Divorce mee,'untie, or breake that knot againe;
Take mee to you, imprison mee, for I
Except you'enthrall mee, never shall be free,
Nor ever chast, except you ravish mee.
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Joshua,

I just Googled "Knox Seminary" AND Gage AND controversy and came up with plenty of sites to fill in the details. I am NOT a presbyterian so my grasp of the polity is a bit fuzzy. As I understand the issues . . .

* A former student filed a complaint against Dr. Gage for some of his ill-chosen framings and particularly for his anti-rationalistic emphasis upon reading the Bible in a more "typological" manner (i.e., implying that meaning was multiple, not singular).
* Someone(s) in the faculty investigated and turned the matter over to the board.
* The board found him outside the confessional boundaries of the WCF; suspended him WITH pay until the end of the semester; and encouraged him to reconsider his positions so as to bring them into compliance with the confessional standards.
* Since the prof was also on the pastoral staff of the church AND since Knox was established as a ministry of the church, the session investigated the matter and overturned the board. They ordered the immediate reinstatment of the prof.
* Having already written a letter imploring the church to respect the judgment of the board, Dr. R.C. Sproul (and five other board members) resigned their positions on the board.
* An offer was made to reinstate the board members, they all accepted.
* After they accepted the offer, they were informed that in order to return to the board, they would need to agree to some conditions. These included admitting that they were wrong and promising not to take action against the prof in the future.
* Those who love the staff pastor/seminary prof have gone out of their way to blame R.C. Sproul in most uncharitable ways, seeing the matter as one of a rush to judgment and a failure of due process; those who side with the board see this as the beginning of the end for the school. They argue that the board was merely attempting to maintain theological purity with integrity.

I agree with Turmeric. Poor R.C.! He has had a powerful impact upon my life and ministry. After a lifetime of faithful service, he certainly does not deserve this kind of trouble. Frankly, it is difficult to believe that this would have gone down this way if Dr. Kennedy were still alive.
 
joshua said:
Jonathan, it appears nobody's gonna break it down for me anyway, so no worries! :lol:
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Hey, I wasn't getting at you, I said I didn't think it was MY business especially. It certainly interests me, but I wonder, as Peter said, if that interest is wrong. I think you have a breakdown now anyways!

:up:
 
DMcFadden said:
...
* Those who love the staff pastor/seminary prof have gone out of their way to blame R.C. Sproul in most uncharitable ways, seeing the matter as one of a rush to judgment and a failure of due process; those who side with the board see this as the beginning of the end for the school. They argue that the board was merely attempting to maintain theological purity with integrity.
Click to expand...

It seems to me the CRPC Session rushed to judgment. It seemed that the idea of the Board was that the Board would suspend Gage, then the Session was also expected to suspend Gage (on the advice of the Board) from preaching/teaching at CRPC pending an investigation and hearing by the Presbytery!

Had the CRPC Session not rushed to intervene, and had they followed the Board's suggestions, then the next step would have been and investigation and hearing by the Presbytery.

At that point, the Presbytery could rightly rule if Gage was within the bounds of orthodoxy. And if they ruled in Gage's favor, then Board could reconsider their actions.

But that didn't happen and it's a mess. I hope they can straighten out the procedural issues first, so they can then properly consider the more important issues of Gage's orthodoxy at the Presbytery level.
 
This accusation that Warren Gage regards redemption as a form of divine rape is unfounded. Brothers, we must be careful in accussing a man of saying something that he may not have said. This was a quote taken out of context in a class lecture. The Scriptures remind us that we should not bear false witness against our neighbor. This was something that was found on the internet and perhaps taken out of context by those who thought it was their "calling" to let everyone know the juicy gosip of Knox Seminary. Warren Gage was accused of teaching a typology that some think is beyond the WCOF. There are several issues at stake in this matter and too many are confusing the issues.
 
John Doane in his Holy Sonnet XIV refers to being ravished by God. Perhaps this was the context of the discussion in which this accusation against Gage was raised. Remember that we are outsiders and there is always more behind an issue then what appears on the surface.
 
DMcFadden said:
As a Californian, I have NO clue as to the corporate culture of Coral Ridge or Knox. However, my guess is that whenever a larger-than-life leader of the stature of Kennedy disappears from the scene, you should expect some pretty significant missteps by people trying to adjust to the political environment absent the founder. Look at any large church of whatever polity deal with the death or retirement of a founder or long-term pastor. These kinds of foolish actions are sadly all too common. I pray that they don't do anything to besmirch the reputation of a fine school or some very good people. Sheesh!
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY what is going on, and its EXTREMELY disturbing to see men who were once respected, fall into some shady moves.

If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....:think:

When the cat is away the mice play.

Exodus 32:17-18 17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, "There is a noise of war in the camp." 18 But he said: "It is not the noise of the shout of victory, Nor the noise of the cry of defeat, But the sound of singing I hear."

I know when you hear "exactly" that I might be oversimplifying it. I am. There are quite a few other things that would make you shake your head that are actually happening in the school and in the church as a result of Kennedy's death. People jockying for control, etc.
 
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