Knox Seminary Fiasco continues

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The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.

So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accuastions against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?

(1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.


I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here. :worms:

Brother, I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said that these board members misrepresented anything and I never brought any accusations against them. I was making the point that initially a student brought a complaint to the dean of faculty regarding some things that Dr. Gage said in class. Those involved went back and listened to recordings of Dr. Gage's lectures and some quotes were taken from the lectures. He did apologize for some things he mistated in class and I said that many seminary professors mistate things at times (it was a general statement that was not directed at any individual). I raised the concern that you have to be careful in taking a quote that someone says out of context. We do have to give people the benefit of the doubt. Myself and others feel that the suspending of Dr. Gage was rather sudden and quite a surprise considering that Dr. Gage has taught this same material since he came to the seminary in early 2000. I did not call into question anyone's motive. As a former student, I have great affection for those on both sides of the issue. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
 
The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.

So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accuastions against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?

(1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.


I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here. :worms:

Brother, I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said that these board members misrepresented anything and I never brought any accusations against them. I was making the point that initially a student brought a complaint to the dean of faculty regarding some things that Dr. Gage said in class. Those involved went back and listened to recordings of Dr. Gage's lectures and some quotes were taken from the lectures. He did apologize for some things he mistated in class and I said that many seminary professors mistate things at times (it was a general statement that was not directed at any individual). I raised the concern that you have to be careful in taking a quote that someone says out of context. We do have to give people the benefit of the doubt. Myself and others feel that the suspending of Dr. Gage was rather sudden and quite a surprise considering that Dr. Gage has taught this same material since he came to the seminary in early 2000. I did not call into question anyone's motive. As a former student, I have great affection for those on both sides of the issue. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.


But you did say.... the problem that led to the boards decision was some statements made in class, and some of them that were taken out of context. That does imply that their decision was based upon statements taken out of context as well. I agree one needs to be careful when summarizing these things. Communication is a dangerous business.
 
This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach. It is sorrowful that organizational divorce is such a ready option for so many people today, including leaders. All churches and organizations have problems, including sinful problems. It is ordinarily better to just stay there instead of abandoning the organization. That is part of what it means to study the peace the church, or to have a similar attitude toward an organization. To leave board positions over typology is absurd.

Don't forget that we are required to promote both the peace AND purity of the church. They are two sides of the same coin and both must have proper attention given to them. However we cannot give up purity to maintain the human illusion of "peace."

P.S. I say this as someone who knew nothing about the Knox controversy prior to reading this thread.
 
This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach. It is sorrowful that organizational divorce is such a ready option for so many people today, including leaders. All churches and organizations have problems, including sinful problems. It is ordinarily better to just stay there instead of abandoning the organization. That is part of what it means to study the peace the church, or to have a similar attitude toward an organization. To leave board positions over typology is absurd.

Don't forget that we are required to promote both the peace AND purity of the church. They are two sides of the same coin and both must have proper attention given to them. However we cannot give up purity to maintain the human illusion of "peace."

P.S. I say this as someone who knew nothing about the Knox controversy prior to reading this thread.

Thank you, brother for the reminder. There is always the tendancy to point suspicion at someone theologically and disreard our responsibility to promote peace and brotherly kindness.
 
I see Dr. Beisner is no longer at Knox Seminary. Did he leave over this controversy? Have any of the other faculty also left?
 
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Let's keep the whole situation in prayer.

If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....

When the cat is away the mice play.

This is true. One problem here is that Dr. Kennedy did not set up a successor. Thus, once the Lord took him home, all sorts of problems arose. Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Morey were close, dear friends over the years. Dr. Morey has been invited to Coral Ridge to speak there because of the turmoil that they are in. Of course, if anyone can whip them into shape, it's him. But we don't expect any miracles unless it pleases God to grant any. I think Morey will also hit up Knox as well.
 
I see Dr. Beisner is no longer at Knox Seminary. Did he leave over this controversy? Has any of the other faculty also left?

Dr. Beisner and Dr. Reymond are no longer at Knox, but Reymond was in semi-retirement and fully retired from the seminary. Dr. White is still on the faculty but is no longer the Dean of Faculty.
 
Let's keep the whole situation in prayer.

If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....

When the cat is away the mice play.

This is true. One problem here is that Dr. Kennedy did not set up a successor. Thus, once the Lord took him home, all sorts of problems arose. Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Morey were close, dear friends over the years. Dr. Morey has been invited to Coral Ridge to speak there because of the turmoil that they are in. Of course, if anyone can whip them into shape, it's him. But we don't expect any miracles unless it pleases God to grant any. I think Morey will also hit up Knox as well.

Yes, I think you have a more accurate picture of what happened at Knox. When Dr. Kennedy died it left a huge hole in the leadership and I always predicted that this would happen. Remember, though in Presbyterianism we do not appoint successors as in an Episcopal system of government, but they certainly did not set things in order for the event of his death. When he was advancing in age and his health started failing, which it had been for years, the board and the session should have started looking more seriously at their situation. This is a classic case of crisis mode. You never lead from a crisis mode. I am curious, who is Dr. Morey?
 
Knox has now joined partnership with RTS, so there may be better days ahead. Dr. Michael Milton, is one of the original Knox board members, and is the new President of RTS/Charlotte, so this gives me some hope for its future. He is a godly man and a graduate of Knox, so he has the interest of the seminary at heart.
 
Let's keep the whole situation in prayer.

If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....

When the cat is away the mice play.

This is true. One problem here is that Dr. Kennedy did not set up a successor. Thus, once the Lord took him home, all sorts of problems arose. Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Morey were close, dear friends over the years. Dr. Morey has been invited to Coral Ridge to speak there because of the turmoil that they are in. Of course, if anyone can whip them into shape, it's him. But we don't expect any miracles unless it pleases God to grant any. I think Morey will also hit up Knox as well.

I am sorry brother, but I don't think I have officially welcomed you to Puritan Board. Welcome aboard. It is great to have you with us. Sit back, have a drink, and enjoy the journey. :lol:

:welcome: :handshake:
 
Remember, though in Presbyterianism we do not appoint successors as in an Episcopal system of government,

Yes, I suppose I used a poor choice of words.

I am sorry brother, but I don't think I have officially welcomed you to Puritan Board. Welcome aboard. It is great to have you with us. Sit back, have a drink, and enjoy the journey.

Thank you! I have enjoyed interacting here thus far.


I am curious, who is Dr. Morey?

Dr. Robert Morey. He graduated from Westminster with Bahnsen, Poythress, and that bunch. He also studied under, and received personal training from Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, Gordon Clark, Martin Lloyd Jones, Carl F. Henry, Walter Martin, Murray, and more. Author of over 40 books, over 1,300 lectures. He is the one who inspired John Frame's Ordo Salutis specialty (pedagogical order). He is president of the apologetics ministry Faith Defenders and operates the Research and Education Foundation. He is my pastor and mentor.
 
Dr. Robert Morey. He graduated from Westminster with Bahnsen, Poythress, and that bunch. He also studied under, and received personal training from Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, Gordon Clark, Martin Lloyd Jones, Carl F. Henry, Walter Martin, Murray, and more. Author of over 40 books, over 1,300 lectures. He is the one who inspired John Frame's Ordo Salutis specialty (pedagogical order). He is president of the apologetics ministry Faith Defenders and operates the Research and Education Foundation. He is my pastor and mentor.

Wow! I Googled Dr. Morey and he sure has taken some heat. I'm a little suspicious at this point because I've never heard of him and he is said to recieved "personal training from Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, Gordon Clark, Martin Lloyd Jones, Carl F. Henry, Walter Martin, Murray, and more". That's quite a pedegree from someone I've never heard of.

So I'm asking if anyone else here can vouch for Dr. Morey. My research so far has not left me with a good feeling - but I'm withholding judgment until I know more.

Anyone??
 
Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.
 
He's a bulldog. I think he misunderstood Dooyeweerd (not that anyone really cares). He is supposed to be real good on Islam.
 
Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.

Yes, I am familiar with some of his books, but that is all I know. He did some things with James Kennedy years ago in the area of Coral Ridge Media. I don't know anything, but I would suspect he preached at Coral Ridge recently or is scheduled to preach. I do not think he is in any consultation with Coral Ridge, other than the tv. and radio ministry, which is struggling. He is Southern Baptist, so I do not think he would be qualified to do much with Coral Ridge.
 
Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.

I found some pretty nasty stuff written about Dr. Morey, but this was from the liberal press and pro-Islam types. Anyone who speaks publicly and truthfully about Islam is bound to get hit hard. Some of the accusations boarder on slander. Dr. Morey's wikipedia page is very negative, and seems to be based primarily on the negative article in an Orange Co. newspaper. Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia - especially to respond to claims reported such as he claims to be a consultant for the FBI on Islamic terrorist's in the US, and his claim that terrorist have three nuclear weapons in the US. Are there true claims made by Dr. Morey?

Dr. Morey's credentials sound too good to be true - especially his personally working with/under Van Til, Clark, Schaeffer, etc.. Could someone flesh that out? When, where, what was the outcome?

I'd also like to know what denomination his church belongs to.
 
Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.

I found some pretty nasty stuff written about Dr. Morey, but this was from the liberal press and pro-Islam types. Anyone who speaks publicly and truthfully about Islam is bound to get hit hard. Some of the accusations boarder on slander. Dr. Morey's wikipedia page is very negative, and seems to be based primarily on the negative article in an Orange Co. newspaper. Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia - especially to respond to claims reported such as he claims to be a consultant for the FBI on Islamic terrorist's in the US, and his claim that terrorist have three nuclear weapons in the US. Are there true claims made by Dr. Morey?

Dr. Morey's credentials sound too good to be true - especially his personally working with/under Van Til, Clark, Schaeffer, etc.. Could someone flesh that out? When, where, what was the outcome?

I'd also like to know what denomination his church belongs to.

He is a Baptist. Some in this thread say Southern Baptist. He went to WTS, so studied under CVT there. Going to L'Abri would qualify as "studied under Schaeffer." Not sure where he would have studied under Clark.
 
Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia

I have tried to do this several times, but it gets edited back. Too frustrating to keep up with, the Muslims are monitoring it quite closely.

The SBC ties are with the church plant he started in Irvine, CA. But he is Baptist-ic.

Not sure where he would have studied under Clark.

I think this took place in Dr. Clark's living room, from what I remember.

His book "Studies in the Atonement" is, to me, the most valuable contribution to contemporary theology in at least the last half-century. Dr. John Frame loves it so much that it inspired much of his work on the Ordo. Dr. Roger Nicole called it a "soundly Reformed perspective" and also commended Morey's groundbreaking chapter on the Ordo Salutis. In fact, when Frame was at WTS, he used to have Morey stand in for him. But since he self-publishes and has zero marketing, he is confined within a very small circle.

He also has a B.A. in philosophy from Covenant College besides the MDiv and DMin from WTS. A funny story, D.A. Carson said he and Morey are two of probably five exegetical theologians left - in the world! What a statement. Anyhow, I hope I addressed the curiosity.
 
Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.

I found some pretty nasty stuff written about Dr. Morey, but this was from the liberal press and pro-Islam types. Anyone who speaks publicly and truthfully about Islam is bound to get hit hard. Some of the accusations boarder on slander. Dr. Morey's wikipedia page is very negative, and seems to be based primarily on the negative article in an Orange Co. newspaper. Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia - especially to respond to claims reported such as he claims to be a consultant for the FBI on Islamic terrorist's in the US, and his claim that terrorist have three nuclear weapons in the US. Are there true claims made by Dr. Morey?

Dr. Morey's credentials sound too good to be true - especially his personally working with/under Van Til, Clark, Schaeffer, etc.. Could someone flesh that out? When, where, what was the outcome?

I'd also like to know what denomination his church belongs to.

Southern Baptist
 
The Paradox of Knox Seminary

This may be a little off subject, but not by much.

Obviously, Knox Seminary is named after John Knox, the great Scottish Presbyterian and reformer - the one whom Mary Queen of Scots said that she feared his prayers more than an army of 10,000 men.

I wonder how many faculty, staff, or students of Knox really knew what John Knox believed - and if they believe what he believed. My guess is no. I seriously doubt they they would even adher to half of what Knox believed. I always wondered if Dr. Kennedy really knew what Knox believed - especially regarding psalms in worship or the use of instruments - things Knox did not consider minor, quibble points.

I think if Knox were to have walked into Coral Ridge and seen the massive pipe organ, he would have immediately turned and fled. But that is just my reading of Knox, which is by no means exhaustive.

So, bottom line, it is sad to see this problem at Knox - but when you discard sections of the WCF and you start down the slippery slope, then sometimes reaching bottom is not far off.
 
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