Kuyper's "New Perspective" on the Christian life?
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
It's not so new. I mean, the church did "Christendom and all." Kuyper sounded new at the time because he preached Christ's lordship in a post-1789 culture. Kuyper knew that one couldn't just "go back to Christendom." One had to "do Christendom" in a new way.
And in Kuyper's situation, the state church was now a problem. It was controlled by liberals. So how do we proclaim the lordship of Christ when we no longer have the financial and legal backing of the state? The reason "the church never majored on this" is that since Constantine she never really had to face this problem.
Unless you can point to more specifics.
And in Kuyper's situation, the state church was now a problem. It was controlled by liberals. So how do we proclaim the lordship of Christ when we no longer have the financial and legal backing of the state? The reason "the church never majored on this" is that since Constantine she never really had to face this problem.
Unless you can point to more specifics.
Kuyper's sphere sovereignty envisages family, church, state, school, sciences, etc., redeemed by Christ and serving directly under the Lordship of Christ. Puritanism and Presbyterianism taught there are two kingdoms with a creation-redemption or nature-grace distinction to preserve the unique identity of the church as the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ which has been constituted under His direct and immediate Headship and is governed by Him as Mediator.
Stope
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thank you much for your very very helpful responses - I assure you this isnt just a "fun" Theology talk because for me this has repercussions all the way down to the deepest parts of me. So, to kind of clarify whats happening in me, and what I want to know if what Im thinking/reading/believing is "new" or un-historical in the Church or biblical...:
Long story short, I have for to long thought Christianity was merely "a heaven to gain and hell to shun" and a pious life in response flowing from gratitude, but to be totally honest, that just seemed so un-compelling. I have spent past 3 years seeking something more compelling... And then I start hearing the world "flourishing" from Wright and Keller, then I start hearing Jon Tyson/Mouw/Q Ideas/etc and i hear an emphasis on the Cultural Mandate and just a greater emphasis on the original state in the garden through Gen 3 and the final state post Rev 20, and then I start reading reviews and summaries of Kuyper (Im current reading "lectures..." but not in that deep yet so not much direct from him as the source but more so his followers) - and, I must say, this is so so so so compelling!
However, I fear that since these notions are so new to me (which is crazy cause I read Gospel Coalition, I have a BA in Theology, etc.), and I just fear that this is resonating with me because I have itching ears and want to hear something thats just not biblical. So, I keep Googleing and looking for how this stuff (prior to Kuyper) has had any presence, but I dont even know what terms to Google or how to find responses... In other words it almost seems fringe, seems new, and seems that it might be reading the Bible as a big bug picture and sort of reading between the lines where the Gospel becomes not just a 2 act story of Fall>Redemption (usually of personal soul sense), but becomes a 4 act story of Creation>Fall>Redemption>Restoration (usually of a universal/common sort in addition of personal restoration)... All in all the major thread is:
A focus on the garden, our original state/purpose, as image bearers, and not just foucsing on the judgment that Jesus pays for, but also on the original design/intent that was there when He creates us, namely, as Image bearers/culture mandate/working as mode to glorify God/value and identity in image bearers... The message now is now one of sharing how Jesus pays the penalty but also how God originally created us and sharing that reality with people as we move them from unbelief to belief renewed by the transforming of minds...
So yea I was wondering if you might direct me to any articles or anything that I can make sure Im not just jumping on with a mere trend! Any response would be so so helpful in my very soul and not a waist of time!
Mahalo
Jason
JimmyH
Puritan Board Senior
I'm sure Reverend Winzer will reply, but meanwhile, I had a hunch and my friend google paid off to an extent ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_sovereignty
I will have a think about a practical example and get back to you.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
I apologize in advance if nothing I say here is helpful to you.
This post is only partly a response to your questions. I am not familiar with the ins and outs of Sphere-Soverignity, and I have read only some Kuyper so far. This is an attempt to show some of the powerful effects of God sending the Savior Jesus Christ into the world. You don’t have to read all sorts of books to get the grandiose ideas you are having.
We could start at Genesis 3:15, but I choose...
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." (See also Genesis 22:18)
The Old Testament is where there are many such ideas*, but look what these verses below have in common about who Jesus is:
1 John 4:14 (ESV)
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
John 3:17 (ESV)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 4:42 (ESV)
42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
1 Timothy 4:10 (ESV)
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
=======================
Some verses that make me think big:
*Danial 2; Psalm 2; Isaiah 2 (the 2's
Psalm 110; Daniel 7:13-14 - “The son of man.” Jesus' favorite name for himself.
There are loads more. To me, it gives new meaning to the greatness of the Great Commission.
Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Isaiah 66:19b-23
19b. to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations.
20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord.
21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord.
Ezekiel 47:1-10 - The trickle of water that becomes a river and eventually transforms the oceans of the whole world.
Vs 9b. For this water goes there, that the waters of the sea may become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
And like I said, there are many more verses. This whole thing of Christ's coming is bigger than we are used to thinking. The Bible uses some grandiose language too.
Remember the 12 spies Moses sent to check out the promised land? Only two out of 12 said let's do it. I think the ratio has changed little since then. But we should learn some kind of lesson from what God did to those ten spies. Reread the whole story in Numbers 13 & 14
Numbers 14:21-23; 36-38
21 But truly, as I live, and as all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord,
22 none of the men who have seen my glory and my signs that I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have put me to the test these ten times and have not obeyed my voice,
23 shall see the land that I swore to give to their fathers. And none of those who despised me shall see it.
36 And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—
37 the men who brought up a bad report of the land—died by plague before the Lord.
38 Of those men who went to spy out the land, only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive.
Yes, nothing has changed from then to now. I call the story of the spies, The Great Commission of the Old Testament. (see Numbers 13:1) Did you catch it? “the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the people of Israel.”
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
I think what he may mean is that Kuyperians and neo-Calvinists in general have perhaps tended to blur the distinction between church and the other spheres. Because of this, there seems to be a tendency for them to "lose the gospel" and sort of replace it with social activism. (I've seen at least a few refer to "one kingdom." And keep in mind that the two kingdom teaching Rev. Winzer refers to is not the contemporary "Radical Two Kingdom" emphasis but rather was espoused by men who were theocratic and establishmentarian.)
To be sure, some have erred in the opposite direction.
The great commission is a good example, and might help to give a more concrete view of it.
Is the school-teacher who is a professing Christian fulfilling the great commission when he teaches his students about creation? Sphere sovereignty would say that he is. Those who maintain this doctrine would call Christian schools an example of the organic church worshipping under the Lordship of Christ seeing as Christ has called Christians to redeem education.
In the two kingdom view the school teacher who is a professing Christian belongs to the church but the church is an assembly congregated in the name of Jesus Christ for the purpose of public worship and witness. The school teacher is engaged in a lawful vocation in the State, but he is not authorised to baptise in the Trinitarian name nor to teach authoritatively and accountably all things whatsoever Christ has commanded. Education cannot be redeemed because it was never lost. The souls that use the education system need redemption because they are lost on account of the fall. Therefore the church uses education to reach souls, but it does not seek to redeem education.
Is the school-teacher who is a professing Christian fulfilling the great commission when he teaches his students about creation? Sphere sovereignty would say that he is. Those who maintain this doctrine would call Christian schools an example of the organic church worshipping under the Lordship of Christ seeing as Christ has called Christians to redeem education.
In the two kingdom view the school teacher who is a professing Christian belongs to the church but the church is an assembly congregated in the name of Jesus Christ for the purpose of public worship and witness. The school teacher is engaged in a lawful vocation in the State, but he is not authorised to baptise in the Trinitarian name nor to teach authoritatively and accountably all things whatsoever Christ has commanded. Education cannot be redeemed because it was never lost. The souls that use the education system need redemption because they are lost on account of the fall. Therefore the church uses education to reach souls, but it does not seek to redeem education.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
If the 2kingdomz view tends to make the gospel a way to get to a Platonized heaven where I think about right triangles with Pythagoras, Kuyperians sometimes (though not necessarily) end up on the left wing of social activism. They are generally correct, to the extent they follow Bavinck, that creation will be restored (Grace restores nature).
If you follow Bavinck, you can't go wrong.
If you follow Bavinck, you can't go wrong.
Justice punishes sinful nature, and God has been pleased to reserve wicked men for the judgment, so restorationist eschatologies must look beyond the present world for the consummation.
I sing with joy and hope the words of Psalm 22:27-28 as part of the exaltation of Christ, trusting that the Lord will hasten it in His time before the end comes, but without knowing what specifically may intervene between times.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Should families, schools, and politics be under the Lordship of Christ?
We confess and proclaim Jesus is Lord. They are under His Lordship. He has been given power over all flesh that He might give eternal life to as many as have been given Him. It is because all things are under His Lordship that all men are bound to honour the Son.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Back to the OP, here is a somewhat Schilderian critique of Kuyper.
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resour...g-from-the-life-of-dr-klaas-schilder-part-ii/
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resour...g-from-the-life-of-dr-klaas-schilder-part-ii/
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