Leading to Christ

[earl40]

How would you answer the person who says they were lead (edit to led) to Jesus and saved by the conversation of a coworker or dorm buddy? I ask in light of Romans 10:14 which in my opinion is exclusive to preachers. In other words, does not Romans 10:14 exclude such thinking that one can believe without a preacher? I am coming to the conclusion it is almost a fools errand to speak to such thinking especially when a person thinks they came to Jesus this way.

I ask because this past Sunday a visiting Pastor laid the burden on the congregation to do His job, because he believes it is possible for the "dorm buddy" to lead people to Jesus.

 

[timfost]

We are not all called to preach but we are called to witness. Our witness certainly can and should win others to Christ.

"Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear." (1Pet. 3:1-2)

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you." (1Cor. 9:22b-23)

Our witness is not simply inviting people to church. We need to speak and live according to what we know and this certainly does and should win people to Christ.

Christ is our Prophet, Priest and King. We are by extension as Christians also prophets, priests and kings. A prophet's job is to speak for God. What do you speak, and what is the effect of your speech?

 

[Dachaser]

We are not all called to preach but we are called to witness. Our witness certainly can and should win others to Christ.

"Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear." (1Pet. 3:1-2)

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you." (1Cor. 9:22b-23)

Our witness is not simply inviting people to church. We need to speak and live according to what we know and this certainly does and should win people to Christ.

Christ is our Prophet, Priest and King. We are by extension as Christians also prophets, priests and kings. A prophet's job is to speak for God. What do you speak, and what is the effect of your speech?

When we witness to the lost in both word and deed, we are preaching to them about Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[Scott Bushey]

When we witness to the lost in both word and deed, we are preaching to them about Jesus as the Messiah.

Preaching is exclusive to the officers of the church and those ordained to the office of 'preacher'. Preaching is never divorced of the means of grace; hence, if a person says to you, 'there is water', Acts 8:36, what will u do?

We cannot see any instance in scripture where the term is not connected with the office holder.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

We are not all called to preach but we are called to witness. Our witness certainly can and should win others to Christ.

"Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear." (1Pet. 3:1-2)

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you." (1Cor. 9:22b-23)

Our witness is not simply inviting people to church. We need to speak and live according to what we know and this certainly does and should win people to Christ.

Christ is our Prophet, Priest and King. We are by extension as Christians also prophets, priests and kings. A prophet's job is to speak for God. What do you speak, and what is the effect of your speech?

Tim, I'd push back a little and say that 1 Peter 3:1-2 is calling wives to live the life, not "witness" to her husband; and that the 1 Corinthians passage is the apostle speaking of his apostolic ministry, and isn't teaching laypeople about witnessing.

You won't find a passage instructing lay people to witness ("share the gospel") with people. The charge "ye shall be witnesses" was, again, a charge to the apostles.

We are to give an answer to those who ask the reason for the hope that is in us. We are to invite people to come and hear Jesus, as did the woman at the well. We can tell them, "he told me everything I've ever done. The Lord has done great things for me."

 

[Gforce9]

Preaching is exclusive to the officers of the church and those ordained to the office of 'preacher'. Preaching is never divorced of the means of grace; hence, if a person says to you, 'there is water', Acts 8:36, what will u do?

We cannot see any instance in scripture where the term is not connected with the office holder.

I've come to appreciate God's appointed means....always in the presence of the body and her officers.....

 

[TylerRay]

How would you answer the person who says they were lead to Jesus and saved by the conversation of a coworker or dorm buddy? I ask in light of Romans 10:14 which in my opinion is exclusive to preachers. In other words, does not Romans 10:14 exclude such thinking that one can believe without a preacher? I am coming to the conclusion it is almost a fools errand to speak to such thinking especially when a person thinks they came to Jesus this way.

I ask because this past Sunday a visiting Pastor laid the burden on the congregation to do His job, because he believes it is possible for the "dorm buddy" to lead people to Jesus.

The preacher (i.e., minister of the Word) is the one God ordinarily uses to bring his Word, and the preaching of the Word is what God ordinarily uses to impart faith (faith cometh by hearing). However, God is not bound to these means. He can work in extraordinary ways, and implant faith, for instance, even in the womb.

We should never expect or presume upon God to work outside of his ordinary means; however, we should recognize his power and prerogative to do so, and humbly submit to his wisdom when he chooses to operate outside of those means.

 

[timfost]

Tim, I'd push back a little and say that 1 Peter 3:1-2 is calling wives to live the life, not "witness" to her husband; and that the 1 Corinthians passage is the apostle speaking of his apostolic ministry, and isn't teaching laypeople about witnessing.

You won't find a passage instructing lay people to witness ("share the gospel") with people. The charge "ye shall be witnesses" was, again, a charge to the apostles.

We are to give an answer to those who ask the reason for the hope that is in us. We are to invite people to come and hear Jesus, as did the woman at the well. We can tell them, "he told me everything I've ever done. The Lord has done great things for me."

Jeri,

Frankly, I think you strip Christians of the office of prophet.

The verse about wives was demonstrating that people can be won to Christ apart from preaching contra the OP.

We are all called to witness. Can we witness in word? Can we offer Christ? Does being ready to give a defence mean we simply say "talk to my pastor"?

Do you witness in word to your children? Grandchildren?

 

[Pergamum]

While we repeatedly remind folks on the PB that only ordained men should preach, it would also be a good idea to remind every Christian what they CAN do towards the lost world. Perhaps it is due to modern evangelicalism, but I believe many on the PB are imbalanced in the other direction and forget that all are witnesses to Christ. I hope what is being emphasized from pulpits is the blessing that every Christian can provide to their fellow man and not merely reminders of what they cannot do.


Romans 15:14, "14 And I myself also am persuaded about you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another."

Not all admonishing needs to be from the pulpit by an ordained minister, but all Christians are expected to do so. And part of this admonishing must be to repent and believe.

 

[Jack K]

How would you answer the person who says they were lead to Jesus and saved by the conversation of a coworker or dorm buddy?

I would say it's quite common, in our experience, for God to use such conversations as part of the process of bringing people to confess faith in Jesus. It is neither necessary nor particularly helpful to try to identify one particular "gospel presentation" or witnessing event that did the trick, and the time and place this happened. The Spirit uses hearing the gospel in combination with life events (and these life events often include conversations with believers) to bring people to faith. He also uses the written Word.

If I have a friend who's interested in hearing about Jesus, I'm going to tell him about Jesus. That isn't me usurping the authority of a pastor; that's me being a good friend. Will the Spirit use those conversations as part of a process that brings my friend to faith? He might. Why should I think he wouldn't? Will I also give my friend a Bible and invite him to church? Probably, because I know the Spirit uses the Word.

If you look at the context surrounding Romans 10:14, you'll see Paul is arguing that preachers ought to be sent so the lost may hear and believe. Of course. The Spirit uses the preaching of the Word. But Paul does not go so far as to say that the only way anyone ever comes to faith is solely through a gospel presentation delivered by a preacher. That's reading into the passage restrictions on the Spirit's work that Paul did not intend to address.

 

[timfost]

Very well said Perg and Jack!

 

[Joshua]

How would you answer the person who says they were lead to Jesus . . .

First, I would ask them for chapter and verse where the Lord called them lead. I've seen the Lord call men salt. I've seen them called whitewashed tombs. I've seen a number of things, but I cannot recall an instance where the Lord called folks lead.

Next, I would ask -if we see no record of Christ calling folks lead- how would people surmise that Christ thought of people as lead? He didn't entrust Himself to many, because "he knew what was in man," but I am confident that is not referring to lead, or some physiologically tangible substance.

I would then ask them what led them to believe such a thing about the Lord and lead. What a strange road down which to be led pertaining to lead. We weren't born "lead in our trespasses and sins," but dead. Are your sure your friend didn't misunderstand which word was being used?

I frankly find such an accusation baseless. Outlandish even! What manner of madness is this folly?!

 

[Jeri Tanner]

But Earl, I think when told something like that, I would just encourage them to get their friend (or themselves) to a good church and present themselves to the church for discipleship, explaining that that is God's appointed means.

Jeri,

Frankly, I think you strip Christians of the office of prophet.
The verse about wives was demonstrating that people can be won to Christ apart from preaching contra the OP.

We are all called to witness. Can we witness in word? Can we offer Christ? Does being ready to give a defence mean we simply say "talk to my pastor"?

Do you witness in word to your children? Grandchildren?

Tim, I'm curious (and likely ignorant): where does the idea come from of the individual believer acting in a prophetic office toward outsiders from the church? Where in Scripture or in the subordinate Standards- or perhaps in Puritan thought.

 

[JimmyH]

I found salvation, like the Ethiopian eunuch, reading the Scriptures. The Stanley Brothers, a bluegrass group of bygone days, had a song called, "I Can Tell You The Time," (I can show you the place, where the Lord saved me, on that wonderful day) This is true of me.

 

[timfost]

where does the idea come from of the individual believer acting in a prophetic office toward outsiders from the church? Where in Scripture or in the subordinate Standards- or perhaps in Puritan thought.

Heidelberg 32:

"But why are you called a Christian?

Because by faith I am a member of Christ and thus a partaker of His anointing, in order that I also may confess His Name, may present myself a living sacrifice of thankfulness to Him, and with a free conscience may fight against sin and the devil in this life, and hereafter in eternity reign with Him over all creatures."

Confessing Christ is a product of our anointing as prophets (notice the offices of prophet, priest and king are implied through this Q&A in the words "confess," "sacrifice" and "reign"). Our "fight against sin" necessarily confesses Christ to sinners and calls them to repentance and faith.

Ursinus in his commentary of this Q&A says:

"The prophetical dignity which is in Christians, is an understanding, acknowledgement and confession of the true doctrine of God necessary for our salvation. Or, our prophetical office is, 1. Rightly to know God and his will. 2. That every one in his place and degree profess the same, being correctly understood, faithfully, boldly and constantly, that God may thereby be celebrated, and his truth revealed in its living force and power. 'Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father which is in heaven.' (Matt. 10:32.)"

Hope this helps.

 

[BG]

This is an interesting question. If it is the layman’s job to share the gospel, tell others of the wonderful things that Christ has done for them, in other words one beggar telling another beggar where he found bread, we have a big problem because so few churches prepare people for this task. On the other hand if it is the ministers job (alone) to go from city to city, village to village, house to house (like Christ and the Apostles did ) sharing the gospel then we have a bigger problem, because this does not seem to be happening either.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Heidelberg 32:

"But why are you called a Christian?

Because by faith I am a member of Christ and thus a partaker of His anointing, in order that I also may confess His Name, may present myself a living sacrifice of thankfulness to Him, and with a free conscience may fight against sin and the devil in this life, and hereafter in eternity reign with Him over all creatures."

Confessing Christ is a product of our anointing as prophets (notice the offices of prophet, priest and king are implied through this Q&A in the words "confess," "sacrifice" and "reign"). Our "fight against sin" necessarily confesses Christ to sinners and calls them to repentance and faith.

Ursinus in his commentary of this Q&A says:

"The prophetical dignity which is in Christians, is an understanding, acknowledgement and confession of the true doctrine of God necessary for our salvation. Or, our prophetical office is, 1. Rightly to know God and his will. 2. That every one in his place and degree profess the same, being correctly understood, faithfully, boldly and constantly, that God may thereby be celebrated, and his truth revealed in its living force and power. 'Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father which is in heaven.' (Matt. 10:32.)"

Hope this helps.

I appreciate the quotes, but don't see them speaking of the lay person's duty to share the gospel. I'm not at all saying laypeople don't speak of Christ to others. We do because we want to, we love people, and want them to know the Lord. It's the idea of it being a biblical duty to share the gospel, i.e. the plan of salvation, with people. If it's a biblical duty for every Christian to do so, then I'd still like to see where in the Bible that comes from.

 

[timfost]

I appreciate the quotes, but don't see them speaking of the lay person's duty to share the gospel. I'm not at all saying laypeople don't speak of Christ to others. We do because we want to, we love people, and want them to know the Lord. It's the idea of it being a biblical duty to share the gospel, i.e. the plan of salvation, with people. If it's a biblical duty for every Christian to do so, then I'd still like to see where in the Bible that comes from.

Unless I'm mistaken, this conversation was never about a lay-person's obligation...

 

[BG]

Psalm 96:3
James 5:19-20
Prov 11:30
Philemon 1:6

 

[earl40]

Unless I'm mistaken, this conversation was never about a lay-person's obligation...

This entire thread about the obligation, and the mistaken idea you and I as laypersons are obligated to the task of evangelism. I am sorry but as alluded to previously the "ordinary" way people come top Jesus is by preaching (which Our Lord can use the preachers in the scripture BTW). Any other extraordinary way, such as a dorm buddy who thinks they "led" (this for Josh) another to Christ, speaks against Romans 10:14 which BTW is specific to all of us. To explain it away by using the word "ordinary" ignores how Our Lord ordained people to come to Jesus. I am growing weary of "every member is an evangelist" which has infected many of our so called "missional" churches.

 

[timfost]

Earl,

1. Where does scripture say that it is impossible for a lay-person to lead someone to Christ? I gave the example of wives. We have Timothy who learned from his mother and grandmother. Martin Luther certainly didn't get it from the priest. This should be enough to disprove your thesis.

2. Why have you forced evangelism under the auspices of preaching? This is very strange.

I believe that you construct artificial boundaries on the witness that you are supposed to be. What kind of light do you think we should be in this dark world?

Earl, as a Christian you are also a prophet. If you keep your mouth shut and leave evangelism to the preacher alone when you have opportunity to witness, I think you are resting on the boat to Tarshish.

 

[BG]

26 Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp.
27 And a young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp."
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, "My lord Moses, stop them."
29 But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"
30 And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp. - Numbers 11:26-30

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Bill, the whole point of the Numbers passage is that these men prophesied as prophets- the Spirit rested on them, it was an extraordinary gift. In spite of Moses' declaration, not all were given the gift of prophecy, just as Paul said: are all prophets? (No.)

 

[deathtolife]

Wherever the established believer is driven, he carries the knowledge of the gospel, and makes known the preciousness of Christ in every place. Where a simple desire of doing good influences the heart, it will be found impossible to shut a man out from all opportunities of usefulness. - Matthew Henry

With that said, I highly recommend these two books, if you ever get a chance to read them. (One is a thesis,and exegetical in nature. The other is a classic, dealing with the issue historically)

1) Paul's Understanding of the Church's Mission: Did the Apostle Paul Expect the Early Christian Communities to Evangelize? (Review by Kevin De Young, here )

2) Early Church Evangelism by Michael Green

 

[Scott Bushey]

2. Why have you forced evangelism under the auspices of preaching? This is very strange.

Exactly. This is the crux of the matter. People want to fit the round peg in the square hole; no one has said that since we are laypeople, that we do not play a part-we are one body-all w/ gifts, all with jobs. The body would not be the same without the pinky toe.

Earl, as a Christian you are also a prophet.

The only prophecy today is God's word, read and that by the ordained man to make official proclamation.

Evangelism is a group effort. Preaching, however, is for the ordained. Preaching is proclamation and proclamation is prophesying. The lay-person may quote scripture, give witness and tell of the hope that is within them in the 'ministry of reconciliation', but they are not 'preaching' nor 'prophesying'.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Earl,

1. Where does scripture say that it is impossible for a lay-person to lead someone to Christ? I gave the example of wives. We have Timothy who learned from his mother and grandmother. Martin Luther certainly didn't get it from the priest. This should be enough to disprove your thesis.

2. Why have you forced evangelism under the auspices of preaching? This is very strange.

I believe that you construct artificial boundaries on the witness that you are supposed to be. What kind of light do you think we should be in this dark world?

Earl, as a Christian you are also a prophet. If you keep your mouth shut and leave evangelism to the preacher alone when you have opportunity to witness, I think you are resting on the boat to Tarshish.

Though not Earl , I would like to ask again, where in Scripture is the duty given to laypeople to evangelize? In the Bible, evangelism is carried out through the ordained ministry of the church. Evangelism is not speaking of Christ and inviting people to come and see and learn of Christ, which every lay-person may do and wants to do when opportunity arises. It's not helpful when you use (I think) overly- dramatic words and phrases and implications: forcing, constructing, "resting on the boat to Tarshish" (which again, was done by God's ordained minister, running from a call).

 

[BG]

Jeri, I agree, my point in posting it was to show that God uses all kinds of people for his work. I find it odd that we would prohibit christians from sharing the gospel. It is like telling a newly wed not to speak of their spouse. How can we not speak of the things of Christ, that is of course if we are saved (Eph 4:12). If the only one who is supposed to share the gospel is a minister, then we have a big big problem because they don’t do it ( that is a generalization a few do). Jesus and the Apostles did most of their ministry on the street, towns, city’s, houses not the synagogue. I am noticing a odd trend of the board, christians should not tell others about Christ, should not be discipled, layman should not attempt to console a friend, what is next layman should not own bibles? ** not accusing you of this just thinking out loud**

 

[Scott Bushey]

If the only one who is supposed to share the gospel is a minister

Bill,
This all comes down to distinctions; the crux of the issue rests in the differences between sharing, witnessing, giving witness and actual 'preaching'. Most people blow this....The lines are very thin, but not negligible. In other words, it is important.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Simple solution: If u are a lay-person, just don't call what u are doing as 'preaching'.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Jeri, I agree, my point in posting it was to show that God uses all kinds of people for his work. I find it odd that we would prohibit christians from sharing the gospel. It is like telling a newly wed not to speak of their spouse. How can we not speak of the things of Christ, that is of course if we are saved (Eph 4:12). If the only one who is supposed to share the gospel is a minister, then we have a big big problem because they don’t do it ( that is a generalization a few do). Jesus and the Apostles did most of their ministry on the street, towns, city’s, houses not the synagogue. I am noticing a odd trend of the board, christians should not tell others about Christ, should not be discipled, layman should not attempt to console a friend, what is next layman should not own bibles? ** not accusing you of this just thinking out loud**

Bill, I think you're making a leap from the distinctions being made between office and duty, and privilege- the office and duties of the ordained ministry, and the privilege of speaking of Christ that all members of Christ's body have. You're really making a leap in your last few sentences about the odd trend you've noticed! Those who love Christ really can't help but speak of him to all who to whom they owe the duty or who the Lord brings across their path and provides an opening. But many/most churches impose a duty on laypeople to "preach" and "evangelize" that Scripture doesn't impose.

Your problem is separate from this issue in that you're troubled at the lack of evangelism you see. I know that some churches, including the Free Church, do open-air preaching (by ordained men) with church members attending to hand out tracts. Our former church did a lot of visitation by ministers and laypeople, simply offering good tracts and inviting people to come to church. I believe that on laypeople' part, simply telling people that "the Lord has done great things for me; come Sunday and hear more about him" is powerful and "safe," in that the simplest member can do this and not be in danger of trying to say things he isn't equipped or gifted to say. Stuff like that.