Learning Biblical and contemporary versions of languages

[Solparvus]

I saw on a video a long time ago that students of Biblical Greek used to learn not only the Biblical Greek, but the classic and contemporary versions as well. Don't trust the source enough though to just believe it. Could someone confirm if this is true? Would appreciate a resource confirming or denying.

I've heard many affirm that learning modern Hebrew is quite helpful for learning Biblical Hebrew. I've not found the same consensus for modern Greek.

 

[Charles Johnson]

I saw on a video a long time ago that students of Biblical Greek used to learn not only the Biblical Greek, but the classic and contemporary versions as well. Don't trust the source enough though to just believe it. Could someone confirm if this is true? Would appreciate a resource confirming or denying.

I've heard many affirm that learning modern Hebrew is quite helpful for learning Biblical Hebrew. I've not found the same consensus for modern Greek.

"Modern Greek" up until the 1970's, more or less, was katharevousa, which is basically koine Greek adopted for modern use, kind of like how neo-latin was used. Here is an example of that, in the sermons of Jonas King, an American missionary to Greece in the 19th century.
This sort of writing is helpful for practicing Greek.
Modern demotic Greek, which is the Greek used today for the most part, is much less similar to ancient Greek.
As for whether it was previously common for students to read classical Greek, it certainly was. In the centuries after the Reformation, to have studied Aristotle in Greek, at the very least, was considered important for theology students.

 

[danekristjan]

I saw on a video a long time ago that students of Biblical Greek used to learn not only the Biblical Greek, but the classic and contemporary versions as well. Don't trust the source enough though to just believe it. Could someone confirm if this is true? Would appreciate a resource confirming or denying.

I've heard many affirm that learning modern Hebrew is quite helpful for learning Biblical Hebrew. I've not found the same consensus for modern Greek.

Learning both modern Greek and Attic Greek (classical Greek) will immensely help you attain fluency in Biblical Greek. There are differences in all three dialects of course, but the similarities are simply stunning. Greek has changed less in 2,000 years than English has in 500.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

Learning both modern Greek and Attic Greek (classical Greek) will immensely help you attain fluency in Biblical Greek. There are differences in all three dialects of course, but the similarities are simply stunning. Greek has changed less in 2,000 years than English has in 500.

Is it fair to say that koine Greek is as similar to modern Greek as say Shakespeare/KJV English is to what we speak today?

 

[Solparvus]

@danekristjan would you have a ready-made example or resource you can link me to?

I recently saw a video put out by RTS. One of the speakers stated that some seminaries are dropping the languages. Sad, in light of @Charles Johnson 's post.

 

[danekristjan]

Is it fair to say that koine Greek is as similar to modern Greek as say Shakespeare/KJV English is to what we speak today?

I'd say the differences between Koine and Modern may be closer to the differences between the English of the Wycliffe Bible and the NKJV. The comparison is difficult because something in the ballpark or 95% (or more) of words used in every day modern Greek are directly taken/related to Ancient Greek. So while some of the grammar/syntax has changed, the lexemes have remained. There is a native Athenian woman in our congregation, that I regularly communicate with in Greek. My koine Greek is far better than my modern Greek and I will use the koine dialect while speaking and she understands everything I'm saying. It obviously sounds funny to her, but she knows what I'm saying.

My philosophy regarding this is: Greek is Greek. Any time you spend with any of the dialects will help your facility in the rest of them.

 

[ZackF]

I'd say the differences between Koine and Modern may be closer to the differences between the English of the Wycliffe Bible and the NKJV. The comparison is difficult because something in the ballpark or 95% (or more) of words used in every day modern Greek are directly taken/related to Ancient Greek. So while some of the grammar/syntax has changed, the lexemes have remained. There is a native Athenian woman in our congregation, that I regularly communicate with in Greek. My koine Greek is far better than my modern Greek and I will use the koine dialect while speaking and she understands everything I'm saying. It obviously sounds funny to her, but she knows what I'm saying.

My philosophy regarding this is: Greek is Greek. Any time you spend with any of the dialects will help your facility in the rest of them.

Modern Greek does not have the case system, no?

 

[ZackF]

I suppose it is similar to MSA and the modern colloquial Arabic dialects. MSA is used in broadcasting and is close to the Arabic of the Quran yet not used in everyday conversation.

 

[danekristjan]

Modern Greek does not have the case system, no?

It does. Though it has lost the dative case.

 

[Solparvus]

I'd say the differences between Koine and Modern may be closer to the differences between the English of the Wycliffe Bible and the NKJV. The comparison is difficult because something in the ballpark or 95% (or more) of words used in every day modern Greek are directly taken/related to Ancient Greek. So while some of the grammar/syntax has changed, the lexemes have remained. There is a native Athenian woman in our congregation, that I regularly communicate with in Greek. My koine Greek is far better than my modern Greek and I will use the koine dialect while speaking and she understands everything I'm saying. It obviously sounds funny to her, but she knows what I'm saying.

My philosophy regarding this is: Greek is Greek. Any time you spend with any of the dialects will help your facility in the rest of them.

This is helpful. Felt a bit stalled because someone I know whose grandchildren are native Greek-speakers can't understand Koine. I suppose that's not universal, and it could be regional.

I suppose it is similar to MSA and the modern colloquial Arabic dialects. MSA is used in broadcasting and is close to the Arabic of the Quran yet not used in everyday conversation.

Do you mean Modern Standard Arabic? That's a helpful comparison. The Arabic in far west Morocco is quite different from the Arabic in Middle East Saudi, and there are many regional variations in between. There is limited mutual intelligibility between these dialects, though some mutual intelligibility nonetheless. Very few (if any) speak "Standard Arabic," but it's sufficient across the Arab world.

I believe the US language training programs make recruits learn dialects from the start.

Just helpful to be reminded that no language is a singular thing.

 

[danekristjan]

This is helpful. Felt a bit stalled because someone I know whose grandchildren are native Greek-speakers can't understand Koine. I suppose that's not universal, and it could be regional.



Do you mean Modern Standard Arabic? That's a helpful comparison. The Arabic in far west Morocco is quite different from the Arabic in Middle East Saudi, and there are many regional variations in between. There is limited mutual intelligibility between these dialects, though some mutual intelligibility nonetheless. Very few (if any) speak "Standard Arabic," but it's sufficient across the Arab world.

I believe the US language training programs make recruits learn dialects from the start.

Just helpful to be reminded that no language is a singular thing.

Part of the issue is pronunciation. If you pronounce Koine Greek as Greek, they will understand you much easier. But if you use that horrible American invented pronunciation, they will of course think you are speaking Klingon. Lol
Second issue is that younger Greeks have not yet studied classical Greek in school, whereas adult Greek speakers have.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

In my very limited dabbling, modern pronunciation sounds better if spoken, but the Erasmus version is probably easier to learn the language as there is little redundancy.

 

[Claudiu]

Part of the issue is pronunciation. If you pronounce Koine Greek as Greek, they will understand you much easier. But if you use that horrible American invented pronunciation, they will of course think you are speaking Klingon. Lol
Second issue is that younger Greeks have not yet studied classical Greek in school, whereas adult Greek speakers have.

Agreed. Hearing the majority of Americans or non-Romance language Europeans speak Latin or Greek is nails on a chalkboard. The pronunciation is criminal.

 

[danekristjan]

In my very limited dabbling, modern pronunciation sounds better if spoken, but the Erasmus version is probably easier to learn the language as there is little redundancy.

I would argue that it isn't even easier. There is no easy way to pronounce a foreign language, you just have to learn how to do it. But if someone wants to use erasmian that is fine, I just think it then cuts one off from an immense amount of help and materials. If I were learning Spanish, I wouldn't event a pronunciation scheme that seemed easier to me as an English speaker, I would just learn to pronounce it the way Spanish speakers do.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

I would argue that it isn't even easier. There is no easy way to pronounce a foreign language, you just have to learn how to do it. But if someone wants to use erasmian that is fine, I just think it then cuts one off from an immense amount of help and materials. If I were learning Spanish, I wouldn't event a pronunciation scheme that seemed easier to me as an English speaker, I would just learn to pronounce it the way Spanish speakers do.

For speaking, absolutely .

For reading and language study I’d argue it’s a little different. I still prefer modern pronunciation as far as koine goes but I can see the other side.

 

[Solparvus]

Part of the issue is pronunciation. If you pronounce Koine Greek as Greek, they will understand you much easier. But if you use that horrible American invented pronunciation, they will of course think you are speaking Klingon. Lol
Second issue is that younger Greeks have not yet studied classical Greek in school, whereas adult Greek speakers have.

That last statement explains it.

Agreed. Hearing the majority of Americans or non-Romance language Europeans speak Latin or Greek is nails on a chalkboard. The pronunciation is criminal.

For Latin, what do you think is the most appropriate equivalent accent? eg. Spanish, Italian, Romanian, another?

For speaking, absolutely .

For reading and language study I’d argue it’s a little different. I still prefer modern pronunciation as far as koine goes but I can see the other side.

My wife and I recently watched a Curiosity Stream series called "Cracking the Code." In the episode called "The Lost Civilization" scholars were trying to decipher an old Minoan language with no success. Then, many decades after the discovery of this language, someone tried verbally speaking the language based on what data they had. By this verbalizing method this scholar "cracked the code", and he discovered that this old Minoan language was a very early form of Greek.

Verbalization wasn't the only factor, but there were no major breakthroughs on this Minoan script for decades until someone tried to speak it.

Granted, that's not where theology students are, but there is an expansiveness to understanding that gets lost when there is no speaking element. After all, languages are spoken and then written.

As this thread goes on modern Greek is making more sense as a bridge to expanded proficiency in Koine. None of us is going to speak fluent Koine, but neither do any of us speak The King's English in our everyday conversation, yet we can read the KJV and the Puritans just fine because we are fluent English speakers.

 

[ZackF]

This is helpful. Felt a bit stalled because someone I know whose grandchildren are native Greek-speakers can't understand Koine. I suppose that's not universal, and it could be regional.



Do you mean Modern Standard Arabic? That's a helpful comparison. The Arabic in far west Morocco is quite different from the Arabic in Middle East Saudi, and there are many regional variations in between. There is limited mutual intelligibility between these dialects, though some mutual intelligibility nonetheless. Very few (if any) speak "Standard Arabic," but it's sufficient across the Arab world.

I believe the US language training programs make recruits learn dialects from the start.

Just helpful to be reminded that no language is a singular thing.

Yes. I meant Modern Standard Arabic. Street Arabic dialects share much less mutually intelligibility among themselves than the various English and Spanish dialects do across the world. I'd say Arabic is more like German in that respect.

 

[Claudiu]

For Latin, what do you think is the most appropriate equivalent accent? eg. Spanish, Italian, Romanian, another?

All of them are a relatively good equivalent accent. At the same time all of them have their own regional accents and centuries of evolution. For example, certain parts of Romania have a Hungarian or Slavic influence. The Southern region speaks the more proper accent ("non-redneck"). For the most part, Spanish, Italian (although this one is hard to speak in a calm way in my opinion), and Romanian emphasize each syllable equally. Once you learn the Romanian alphabet, learning the pronunciation of words is simple because the words are a pretty strict puzzle piece construction of each phonetic letter and each syllable receiving equal emphasis.

The difficulty with the Germanic vs. Romance branches is that Germanic is stiff in the jaw, lips, and tongue. The Romance languages require the mouth to be more relaxed to speak the language naturally and with ease. The same applies in reverse when Romanians like my parents speak English as a second language and attempt to give each English word the same phonetic and syllabic emphasis (you'll hear this with Spanish speakers as well).