Let's play a little game...
- Thread starter luvroftheWord
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luvroftheWord
Puritan Board Sophomore
Fred,
[quote:3f6054af09]
I'm not arguing (as you know) that Calvin and the divines had some revelatory insights. What I am arguing is that they, rather than Wilson, Wilkins, Frame and any other who disagrees with them on critical doctrines, are the ones faithfully interpreting the Scriptures.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
That depends on who you ask.
[quote:3f6054af09]
Isn't at least somewhat troubling to you that basically all that has come out of many of those you mention is confusion? I mean confusion from both supporters and detractors. Why is it that all of the Auburn 4's arguments basically hinge around - we aren't being understood - even when they have written books, given lectures, follow up lectures, follow up-follow up colloquia, and so on? Have we lost sight of the fact that one of the major requirements for a teacher in Christ's church is to be understood by LAYMEN? If professors at leading Reformed seminaries can't understand what you are teaching, how can the average elderly woman in the church? And if the laymen and seminary profs can't understand what you are teaching, what use is it?
[/quote:3f6054af09]
Confusion can be due to a lot of reasons. There are a lot of people, even in the Presbyterian church, that do not understand baptism. But as for the AAPC, I know for a fact that at least SOME of the people that are critical of them are critical because they hear what they want to hear, and not what is really being said. Our presuppositions can often cloud our understanding.
[quote:3f6054af09]
Again, my point is not simply chronological bigotry. The Reformed understanding of justification has been held by men in its most refined form for over 400 years (and in its less refined form since the days of Augustine) . It has been held by Americans, Europeans, missionaries, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, pastors, professors, Greek scholars, and Hebrew scholars for centuries. It is not simply Calvin and Westminster we are talking about here. It is Beza, a Brakel, Witsius, Warfield, Hodge, Davies, Dabney, Bunyan, Owen, Stott, Spurgeon, Cunningham, Dagg, Henry, Poole, Berkhof, Pink, Machen, Watson, Buchanan, Henry Martyn, Piper, Sproul, Gerstner, Al Moehler, Vos, Ridderbos, Ladd, Doriani, and on and on.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
Right, and I'm not suggesting that the classic Reformed view of justification is something we abandon, and neither is Doug Wilson. He has said this numerous times. I know you say context is everything, but is it really necessary that Wilson lay out his ENTIRE systematic theology when explaining his view on justification? Maybe we should start treating him as a Christian brother and actually BELIEVE what he says when he says he affirms what the confessions say about justification, rather than constantly thinking he has something up his sleeve every time he opens his mouth.
[quote:3f6054af09]
How can all of them be so clear, and no all of a sudden everything is so muddy? And remember we are not talking about advancement along the same line of trajectory on a secondary subject - this is justification, the article on which the church stands or falls.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
I agree. It is important to be clear on this subject. Without justification, there is no gospel. I think Wilson has been clear enough. Now Schlissel on the other hand....
[quote:3f6054af09]
Kline's advancement, for example, while helpful, did not "revolutionize" covenant theology. It merely gave additional proof and insight to support the classical covenantal theology formulation (Kline himself would admit as much). Somehow we forget when we get all giddy over Ridderbos and Vos that Owen wrote a Biblical Theology three centuries earlier, and Edwards had a massive treatment of Biblical theology and redemptive history.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
Actually, the Biblical Theology of Owen and Edwards is not the same as that of Vos and his following. As Charles Hodge had said, Biblical Theology [pre-Vos] was simply proof-texting Systematic Theology. Modern day BT is much different, and has led to many theological breakthroughs (I would consider Kline's work as well as that of his followers to be breakthroughs in understanding). Again, I think if Calvin or the divines had access to the breakthroughs of Kline and other BT's and LT's, I think some of their conclusions may have been different. Maybe that's just me.
[quote:3f6054af09]
So I must respectfully disagree with you.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
That's cool, as long as its respectfully.
[quote:3f6054af09]
I'm not arguing (as you know) that Calvin and the divines had some revelatory insights. What I am arguing is that they, rather than Wilson, Wilkins, Frame and any other who disagrees with them on critical doctrines, are the ones faithfully interpreting the Scriptures.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
That depends on who you ask.
[quote:3f6054af09]
Isn't at least somewhat troubling to you that basically all that has come out of many of those you mention is confusion? I mean confusion from both supporters and detractors. Why is it that all of the Auburn 4's arguments basically hinge around - we aren't being understood - even when they have written books, given lectures, follow up lectures, follow up-follow up colloquia, and so on? Have we lost sight of the fact that one of the major requirements for a teacher in Christ's church is to be understood by LAYMEN? If professors at leading Reformed seminaries can't understand what you are teaching, how can the average elderly woman in the church? And if the laymen and seminary profs can't understand what you are teaching, what use is it?
[/quote:3f6054af09]
Confusion can be due to a lot of reasons. There are a lot of people, even in the Presbyterian church, that do not understand baptism. But as for the AAPC, I know for a fact that at least SOME of the people that are critical of them are critical because they hear what they want to hear, and not what is really being said. Our presuppositions can often cloud our understanding.
[quote:3f6054af09]
Again, my point is not simply chronological bigotry. The Reformed understanding of justification has been held by men in its most refined form for over 400 years (and in its less refined form since the days of Augustine) . It has been held by Americans, Europeans, missionaries, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, pastors, professors, Greek scholars, and Hebrew scholars for centuries. It is not simply Calvin and Westminster we are talking about here. It is Beza, a Brakel, Witsius, Warfield, Hodge, Davies, Dabney, Bunyan, Owen, Stott, Spurgeon, Cunningham, Dagg, Henry, Poole, Berkhof, Pink, Machen, Watson, Buchanan, Henry Martyn, Piper, Sproul, Gerstner, Al Moehler, Vos, Ridderbos, Ladd, Doriani, and on and on.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
Right, and I'm not suggesting that the classic Reformed view of justification is something we abandon, and neither is Doug Wilson. He has said this numerous times. I know you say context is everything, but is it really necessary that Wilson lay out his ENTIRE systematic theology when explaining his view on justification? Maybe we should start treating him as a Christian brother and actually BELIEVE what he says when he says he affirms what the confessions say about justification, rather than constantly thinking he has something up his sleeve every time he opens his mouth.
[quote:3f6054af09]
How can all of them be so clear, and no all of a sudden everything is so muddy? And remember we are not talking about advancement along the same line of trajectory on a secondary subject - this is justification, the article on which the church stands or falls.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
I agree. It is important to be clear on this subject. Without justification, there is no gospel. I think Wilson has been clear enough. Now Schlissel on the other hand....
[quote:3f6054af09]
Kline's advancement, for example, while helpful, did not "revolutionize" covenant theology. It merely gave additional proof and insight to support the classical covenantal theology formulation (Kline himself would admit as much). Somehow we forget when we get all giddy over Ridderbos and Vos that Owen wrote a Biblical Theology three centuries earlier, and Edwards had a massive treatment of Biblical theology and redemptive history.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
Actually, the Biblical Theology of Owen and Edwards is not the same as that of Vos and his following. As Charles Hodge had said, Biblical Theology [pre-Vos] was simply proof-texting Systematic Theology. Modern day BT is much different, and has led to many theological breakthroughs (I would consider Kline's work as well as that of his followers to be breakthroughs in understanding). Again, I think if Calvin or the divines had access to the breakthroughs of Kline and other BT's and LT's, I think some of their conclusions may have been different. Maybe that's just me.
[quote:3f6054af09]
So I must respectfully disagree with you.
[/quote:3f6054af09]
That's cool, as long as its respectfully.
luvroftheWord
Puritan Board Sophomore
Phillip,
I think that any evangelical theologian, whether Calvinist or Arminian, would agree with that quotation. Arminius came out of the Reformed tradition, remember?
I think that any evangelical theologian, whether Calvinist or Arminian, would agree with that quotation. Arminius came out of the Reformed tradition, remember?
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
[quote:5d9a9f551f][i:5d9a9f551f]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:5d9a9f551f]
Phillip,
I think that any evangelical theologian, whether Calvinist or Arminian, would agree with that quotation. Arminius came out of the Reformed tradition, remember? [/quote:5d9a9f551f]
Actually Craig, most arminian theologians that I now of would follow with Wesley and completely deny imputed righteousness. To them Christ only atoned for sin. He did not give us righteousness. But then again, most arminians are more arminian the Arminius himself.
Phillip,
I think that any evangelical theologian, whether Calvinist or Arminian, would agree with that quotation. Arminius came out of the Reformed tradition, remember? [/quote:5d9a9f551f]
Actually Craig, most arminian theologians that I now of would follow with Wesley and completely deny imputed righteousness. To them Christ only atoned for sin. He did not give us righteousness. But then again, most arminians are more arminian the Arminius himself.
[quote:efa31ecacd][i:efa31ecacd]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:efa31ecacd]
Craig,
You got it right...I said, "somebody has been visiting cmfnow.
[b:efa31ecacd]Now, back to the game...who said THIS?:[/b:efa31ecacd]
[quote:efa31ecacd]
"The believer cooperates with God the Spirit in the use of the means of sanctification. Sanctification is both grace and duty....'work out your own salvation with fear and trembeling.' Hence sanctification is the subject of a command....Regeneration, being the sole work of God, is a grace but not a duty. It is nowhere enjoyned upon man as a duty to regenerate himself."
[/quote:efa31ecacd]
now who said it? (never gonna guess). And, do you agree?
-Paul [/quote:efa31ecacd]
Paul,
Is justification a duty? There is a command involved - repent and believe.
[quote:efa31ecacd]As thus defined, repentance is, like faith, an evangelical grace, given to us for Christ's sake, as well as a duty obligatory upon us. What is here said of repentance is equally true of every characteristic experience of the subject of regeneration and sanctification. Christ is the vine; we are the branches. But we see also free, accountable agents. Every Christian duty is therefore a grace; for without him we can do nothing. (John 15:5). And equally every Christian grace is a duty; because the grace is given to us to exercise, and it finds its true result and expression only in the duty.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
I'm not sure who said this, but knowing the rules of the game - give a citation with a buzzword that is troublesome (here, "duty" ) and will make someone knee-jerk to condemn the statement, and then viola! it is Calvin, or Hodge or Owen or some sort - my guess is either R.C. Sproul or Robert Reymond. The language is too modern to be a Puritan or Calvin.
They key is to take a quote with no context, none of the qualifications and try and elicit a response. (The reverse works equally well - to take a seemingly orthodox quote and the viola! it is NT Wright)
Let me ask this, is the following true:
[quote:efa31ecacd]Here we come to the doctrine of sanctification. Let us consider how this gradual work relates to regeneration, the destruction of sin, the entirety of man, perfection and grace.
1. God, having implanted in regeneration a new spiritual nature in the subject of his grace, always continues to foster and develop that principle, by the indwelling of his Word and Spirit, until it attains full perfection.
The word "to sanctify" is used in two different senses in Scripture.
(1) To consecrate, or set apart from a common to a sacred use. (John 10:36; Matt. 23:17.)
(2) To render morally pure or holy. (1 Cor. 6:11; Heb. 13:12.) In the latter sense of the word, regeneration is the commencement of sanctification, and sanctification is the completion of the work commenced in regeneration. As regeneration is an act of God's free grace, so sanctification is a gracious work of God, and eminently of the Holy Spirit. It is attributed to God absolutely (1 Thess. 5:23); to the Son (Eph. 5:25,26); and pre-eminently to the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13), whose special office in the economy of redemption it is to apply the grace secured through the mediation of the Son.
The means of sanctification are of two distinct orders-(a) inward and (b) outward.
The inward means of sanctification is Faith. Faith is the instrument of our justification-and hence of our deliverance from condemnation and communion with God-the organ of our union with Christ and fellowship with his Spirit. Faith, moreover, is that act of the regenerated soul whereby it embraces and experiences the power of the truth, and whereby the inward experiences of the heart and the outward actions of the life are brought into obedience to the truth.
The outward means of sanctification are-
(1) The truth as revealed in the inspired Scriptures: "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth." (John 17:17,19.) "As new-born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." (1 Pet. 1:22; 2:2.) The truth, as the outward means of sanctification, stands in correlation to faith, the inward means of it. Conf. Faith, chap. 14., s. 2: This faith "acteth differently upon that which every particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come," By this means the truth nourishes and exercises the principles of grace implanted in the soul.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
or this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]The infallible certainty of the Divine operations on behalf of and within His saints and the mode of their working cannot be insisted upon too emphatically or repeated too often. On the one hand, the crown of honor and glory must be ascribed to the King Himself; and on the other hand, the response and concurtence or loyalty of His subjects is to be made equally plain. God preserves His people by renewing them in the inner man day by day (2 Cor. 4:16), by quickening them according to His Word, by granting them fresh supplies of grace, and also by moving them to heed His warnings and respond to His exhortations; in a word, by working in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). Thus our portrayal of some of the benefits and fruits of this doctrine will be governed by our viewpoint: whether we trace out what follows faith's appropriating of the Divine promises or what follows from faith's appropriation of the Divine precepts. God has promised to carry forward in sanctification and complete in glorification the work begun in regeneration, yet not without requiring us to perform the duties of piety and avoid everything contrary thereto.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
or what about this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]The end of the Divine calling is to convert sinners into saints or holy persons. Their sanctification is not an eternal or figurative consecration, as that of Israel was, but a real consecration by which they are made to give themselves to God. It arises from union with Jesus Christ, which is the source of the sanctification of His people; and it consists in internal purity of heart, for God purifies the heart by faith. It supposes a real change of heart and disposition, a new creation, for "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature." "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." They were not then saints by natural birth, nor did they make themselves saints either in whole or in part; but they were made so altogether by sovereign grace resulting from sovereign love. All believers are saints, and in one sense all of them are equally sanctified. They are equally separated or consecrated to God, and equally justified, but they are not all equally holy. The work of sanctification in them is progressive. There are babes, and young men, and fathers in Christ. Some are weak in faith, and some are strong; but none of them are yet perfect, neither have they attained to that measure of holiness at which it is their duty constantly to aim, Philippians 3:12. They are therefore to forget those things which are behind, and to reach forth unto those things which are before, and are commanded to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." "Certainly, according to Paul," says Calvin on this place, "the praise of our salvation does not depend upon our own power, but is derived entirely from the fountain of God's love to us. What other cause but His own goodness can, moreover, be assigned for His love? On this also depends His calling, by which, in His own time, He seals the adoption in those who were first gratuitously chosen by Him. From these premises the conclusion follows, that none truly associate themselves with the faithful who do not place a certain degree of confidence in the Lord's kindness to them: although undeserving and wretched sinners, being called by His goodness, they aspire to holiness. For He hath not called us to uncleanness, but to holiness."[/quote:efa31ecacd]
or this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]Herein, indeed, is a humbling truth, yet a fact it is that Christians are, in themselves, incapable of discharging their duty. Though the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts and a principle of holiness (or new nature) communicated to them, yet they are unable to perform the good they ardently desire to do. Not only are they still very ignorant of many of the requirements of God's revealed will, but indwelling sin ever opposes and seeks to incline their hearts in a contrary direction. Thus it is imperative that they daily seek from God fresh supplies of grace. Though assured that God shall surely complete His good work in us (Phil. 1:6), that does not render needless our crying to Him "that performeth all things for me [us]" (Ps. 57:2, brackets mine). Nor does the privilege of prayer release us from the obligation of obedience.Rather, in prayer we are to beg Him to quicken us to the performance of those duties He requires. The blessing of access to God is not designed to discharge us from the regular and diligent use of all the means God has appointed for our practical sanctification, but is meant to provide for our seeking of the Divine blessing on our use of all the means of grace. Our duty is this: to ask God to work in us "both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13); to avoid quenching His Spirit by slothfulness and disobedience, especially after we have prayed for His sweet influences (I Thess. 5:19); and to use the grace He has already given us.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
how about this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]They were elect through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The end and last result of election is eternal life and salvation; but, before this can be accomplished, every elect person must be sanctified by the Spirit, and justified by the blood of Jesus. God's decree for man's salvation always operates through sanctification of the Spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus. By sanctification here understand, not a federal sanctification only, but a real one, begun in regeneration, whereby we are renewed after the image of God and made new creatures, and carried on in the daily exercise of holiness, mortifying our sins more and more, and living to God in all the duties of a Christian life, which is here summed up in one word, obedience, comprehending all the duties of Christianity. By the Spirit some would have the apostle to mean the spirit of man, the subject sanctified. The legal or typical sanctification operated no further than the purifying of the flesh, but the Christian dispensation takes effect upon the spirit of man, and purifies that. Others, with better reason, think that by spirit is meant the Holy Ghost, the author of sanctification. He renews the mind, mortifies our sins (Rom. 8:13), and produces his excellent fruits in the hearts of Christians, Gal. 5:22, 23. This sanctification of the Spirit implies the use of means. Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth, Jn. 17:17. Unto obedience. This word, as it is pointed in our translation, is referred to what goes before it, and denotes the end of sanctification, which is, to bring rebellious sinners to obedience again, to universal obedience, to obey the truth and gospel of Christ.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
lastly, this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]Christ is not only made to them righteousness, but sanctification; by sanctification, I do not mean a bare hypocritical attendance on outward ordinances, though rightly informed Christians will think it their duty and privilege constantly to attend on all outward ordinances. Nor do I mean by sanctification a bare outward reformation, and a few transient convictions, or a little legal sorrow; for all this an unsanctified man may have; but, by sanctification I mean a total renovation of the whole man: by the righteousness of Christ, believers come legally, by sanctification they are made spiritually, alive; by the one they are entitled to, by the other they are made meet for, glory. They are sanctified, therefore, throughout, in spirit, soul, and body.
Their understandings, which were dark before, now become light in the Lord; and their wills, before contrary to, now become one with the will of God; their affections are now set on things above; their memory is now filled with divine things; their natural consciences are now enlightened; their members, which were before instruments of uncleanness, and of iniquity into iniquity, are now new creatures; 'old things are passed away, all things are become new', in their hearts: sin has now no longer dominion over them; they are freed from the power, though not the indwelling of being, of it; they are holy both in heart and life, in all manner of conversation: they are made partakers of a divine nature, and from Jesus Christ, they receive grace; and every grace that is in Christ, is copied and transcribed into their souls; they are transformed into his likeness; he is formed within them; they dwell in him, and he in them; they are led by the Spirit, and bring forth the fruits thereof; they know that Chris is their Emmanuel, God with and in them; they are living temples of the Holy Ghost. And therefore, being a holy habitation unto the Lord, the whole Trinity dwells and walks in them; even here, they sit together with Christ in heavenly places, and are vitally united to him, their Head, by a living faith; their Redeemer, their Maker, is their husband; they are flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone; they talk, they walk with him, as a man talketh and walketh with his friend; in short, they are one with Christ, even as Jesus Christ and the Father are one.
Thus is Christ made to believers sanctification.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
Notice as well that I have given more context than any of the previous quotes. Context is always the key.
Was the one who said this orthodox? [quote:efa31ecacd]He shall give His angels charge over you[/quote:efa31ecacd]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco]
Craig,
You got it right...I said, "somebody has been visiting cmfnow.
[b:efa31ecacd]Now, back to the game...who said THIS?:[/b:efa31ecacd]
[quote:efa31ecacd]
"The believer cooperates with God the Spirit in the use of the means of sanctification. Sanctification is both grace and duty....'work out your own salvation with fear and trembeling.' Hence sanctification is the subject of a command....Regeneration, being the sole work of God, is a grace but not a duty. It is nowhere enjoyned upon man as a duty to regenerate himself."
[/quote:efa31ecacd]
now who said it? (never gonna guess). And, do you agree?
-Paul [/quote:efa31ecacd]
Paul,
Is justification a duty? There is a command involved - repent and believe.
[quote:efa31ecacd]As thus defined, repentance is, like faith, an evangelical grace, given to us for Christ's sake, as well as a duty obligatory upon us. What is here said of repentance is equally true of every characteristic experience of the subject of regeneration and sanctification. Christ is the vine; we are the branches. But we see also free, accountable agents. Every Christian duty is therefore a grace; for without him we can do nothing. (John 15:5). And equally every Christian grace is a duty; because the grace is given to us to exercise, and it finds its true result and expression only in the duty.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
I'm not sure who said this, but knowing the rules of the game - give a citation with a buzzword that is troublesome (here, "duty" ) and will make someone knee-jerk to condemn the statement, and then viola! it is Calvin, or Hodge or Owen or some sort - my guess is either R.C. Sproul or Robert Reymond. The language is too modern to be a Puritan or Calvin.
They key is to take a quote with no context, none of the qualifications and try and elicit a response. (The reverse works equally well - to take a seemingly orthodox quote and the viola! it is NT Wright)
Let me ask this, is the following true:
[quote:efa31ecacd]Here we come to the doctrine of sanctification. Let us consider how this gradual work relates to regeneration, the destruction of sin, the entirety of man, perfection and grace.
1. God, having implanted in regeneration a new spiritual nature in the subject of his grace, always continues to foster and develop that principle, by the indwelling of his Word and Spirit, until it attains full perfection.
The word "to sanctify" is used in two different senses in Scripture.
(1) To consecrate, or set apart from a common to a sacred use. (John 10:36; Matt. 23:17.)
(2) To render morally pure or holy. (1 Cor. 6:11; Heb. 13:12.) In the latter sense of the word, regeneration is the commencement of sanctification, and sanctification is the completion of the work commenced in regeneration. As regeneration is an act of God's free grace, so sanctification is a gracious work of God, and eminently of the Holy Spirit. It is attributed to God absolutely (1 Thess. 5:23); to the Son (Eph. 5:25,26); and pre-eminently to the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13), whose special office in the economy of redemption it is to apply the grace secured through the mediation of the Son.
The means of sanctification are of two distinct orders-(a) inward and (b) outward.
The inward means of sanctification is Faith. Faith is the instrument of our justification-and hence of our deliverance from condemnation and communion with God-the organ of our union with Christ and fellowship with his Spirit. Faith, moreover, is that act of the regenerated soul whereby it embraces and experiences the power of the truth, and whereby the inward experiences of the heart and the outward actions of the life are brought into obedience to the truth.
The outward means of sanctification are-
(1) The truth as revealed in the inspired Scriptures: "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth." (John 17:17,19.) "As new-born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." (1 Pet. 1:22; 2:2.) The truth, as the outward means of sanctification, stands in correlation to faith, the inward means of it. Conf. Faith, chap. 14., s. 2: This faith "acteth differently upon that which every particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come," By this means the truth nourishes and exercises the principles of grace implanted in the soul.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
or this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]The infallible certainty of the Divine operations on behalf of and within His saints and the mode of their working cannot be insisted upon too emphatically or repeated too often. On the one hand, the crown of honor and glory must be ascribed to the King Himself; and on the other hand, the response and concurtence or loyalty of His subjects is to be made equally plain. God preserves His people by renewing them in the inner man day by day (2 Cor. 4:16), by quickening them according to His Word, by granting them fresh supplies of grace, and also by moving them to heed His warnings and respond to His exhortations; in a word, by working in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). Thus our portrayal of some of the benefits and fruits of this doctrine will be governed by our viewpoint: whether we trace out what follows faith's appropriating of the Divine promises or what follows from faith's appropriation of the Divine precepts. God has promised to carry forward in sanctification and complete in glorification the work begun in regeneration, yet not without requiring us to perform the duties of piety and avoid everything contrary thereto.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
or what about this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]The end of the Divine calling is to convert sinners into saints or holy persons. Their sanctification is not an eternal or figurative consecration, as that of Israel was, but a real consecration by which they are made to give themselves to God. It arises from union with Jesus Christ, which is the source of the sanctification of His people; and it consists in internal purity of heart, for God purifies the heart by faith. It supposes a real change of heart and disposition, a new creation, for "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature." "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." They were not then saints by natural birth, nor did they make themselves saints either in whole or in part; but they were made so altogether by sovereign grace resulting from sovereign love. All believers are saints, and in one sense all of them are equally sanctified. They are equally separated or consecrated to God, and equally justified, but they are not all equally holy. The work of sanctification in them is progressive. There are babes, and young men, and fathers in Christ. Some are weak in faith, and some are strong; but none of them are yet perfect, neither have they attained to that measure of holiness at which it is their duty constantly to aim, Philippians 3:12. They are therefore to forget those things which are behind, and to reach forth unto those things which are before, and are commanded to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." "Certainly, according to Paul," says Calvin on this place, "the praise of our salvation does not depend upon our own power, but is derived entirely from the fountain of God's love to us. What other cause but His own goodness can, moreover, be assigned for His love? On this also depends His calling, by which, in His own time, He seals the adoption in those who were first gratuitously chosen by Him. From these premises the conclusion follows, that none truly associate themselves with the faithful who do not place a certain degree of confidence in the Lord's kindness to them: although undeserving and wretched sinners, being called by His goodness, they aspire to holiness. For He hath not called us to uncleanness, but to holiness."[/quote:efa31ecacd]
or this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]Herein, indeed, is a humbling truth, yet a fact it is that Christians are, in themselves, incapable of discharging their duty. Though the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts and a principle of holiness (or new nature) communicated to them, yet they are unable to perform the good they ardently desire to do. Not only are they still very ignorant of many of the requirements of God's revealed will, but indwelling sin ever opposes and seeks to incline their hearts in a contrary direction. Thus it is imperative that they daily seek from God fresh supplies of grace. Though assured that God shall surely complete His good work in us (Phil. 1:6), that does not render needless our crying to Him "that performeth all things for me [us]" (Ps. 57:2, brackets mine). Nor does the privilege of prayer release us from the obligation of obedience.Rather, in prayer we are to beg Him to quicken us to the performance of those duties He requires. The blessing of access to God is not designed to discharge us from the regular and diligent use of all the means God has appointed for our practical sanctification, but is meant to provide for our seeking of the Divine blessing on our use of all the means of grace. Our duty is this: to ask God to work in us "both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13); to avoid quenching His Spirit by slothfulness and disobedience, especially after we have prayed for His sweet influences (I Thess. 5:19); and to use the grace He has already given us.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
how about this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]They were elect through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The end and last result of election is eternal life and salvation; but, before this can be accomplished, every elect person must be sanctified by the Spirit, and justified by the blood of Jesus. God's decree for man's salvation always operates through sanctification of the Spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus. By sanctification here understand, not a federal sanctification only, but a real one, begun in regeneration, whereby we are renewed after the image of God and made new creatures, and carried on in the daily exercise of holiness, mortifying our sins more and more, and living to God in all the duties of a Christian life, which is here summed up in one word, obedience, comprehending all the duties of Christianity. By the Spirit some would have the apostle to mean the spirit of man, the subject sanctified. The legal or typical sanctification operated no further than the purifying of the flesh, but the Christian dispensation takes effect upon the spirit of man, and purifies that. Others, with better reason, think that by spirit is meant the Holy Ghost, the author of sanctification. He renews the mind, mortifies our sins (Rom. 8:13), and produces his excellent fruits in the hearts of Christians, Gal. 5:22, 23. This sanctification of the Spirit implies the use of means. Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth, Jn. 17:17. Unto obedience. This word, as it is pointed in our translation, is referred to what goes before it, and denotes the end of sanctification, which is, to bring rebellious sinners to obedience again, to universal obedience, to obey the truth and gospel of Christ.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
lastly, this?
[quote:efa31ecacd]Christ is not only made to them righteousness, but sanctification; by sanctification, I do not mean a bare hypocritical attendance on outward ordinances, though rightly informed Christians will think it their duty and privilege constantly to attend on all outward ordinances. Nor do I mean by sanctification a bare outward reformation, and a few transient convictions, or a little legal sorrow; for all this an unsanctified man may have; but, by sanctification I mean a total renovation of the whole man: by the righteousness of Christ, believers come legally, by sanctification they are made spiritually, alive; by the one they are entitled to, by the other they are made meet for, glory. They are sanctified, therefore, throughout, in spirit, soul, and body.
Their understandings, which were dark before, now become light in the Lord; and their wills, before contrary to, now become one with the will of God; their affections are now set on things above; their memory is now filled with divine things; their natural consciences are now enlightened; their members, which were before instruments of uncleanness, and of iniquity into iniquity, are now new creatures; 'old things are passed away, all things are become new', in their hearts: sin has now no longer dominion over them; they are freed from the power, though not the indwelling of being, of it; they are holy both in heart and life, in all manner of conversation: they are made partakers of a divine nature, and from Jesus Christ, they receive grace; and every grace that is in Christ, is copied and transcribed into their souls; they are transformed into his likeness; he is formed within them; they dwell in him, and he in them; they are led by the Spirit, and bring forth the fruits thereof; they know that Chris is their Emmanuel, God with and in them; they are living temples of the Holy Ghost. And therefore, being a holy habitation unto the Lord, the whole Trinity dwells and walks in them; even here, they sit together with Christ in heavenly places, and are vitally united to him, their Head, by a living faith; their Redeemer, their Maker, is their husband; they are flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone; they talk, they walk with him, as a man talketh and walketh with his friend; in short, they are one with Christ, even as Jesus Christ and the Father are one.
Thus is Christ made to believers sanctification.[/quote:efa31ecacd]
Notice as well that I have given more context than any of the previous quotes. Context is always the key.
Was the one who said this orthodox? [quote:efa31ecacd]He shall give His angels charge over you[/quote:efa31ecacd]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco]
[quote:569946dc65][i:569946dc65]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:569946dc65]
Fred,
All I was asking was who said it. I never gave any views of my own. And, it is not a modern theologian. In fact, for a hint, he is one of the guys who you said was a good resource for a systematic theology source. Without getting into anything else...we can agree that, as I have read the whole thing in context...jsut don't want to type twp pages, that he does say man COOPERATES in sanctification...to ad further, he goes on to say that man does nothing in regeneration...implying that he does in sanctification.
Regarding your question, in a sense justifiaction is a duty, as you have pointed out that we have a duty to repent and believe...but when we speak of justification not being a duyt we are talking about forensic justification.
-Paul
and was the one who said this orthodox:
[quote:569946dc65]
"if you do these things you shall never fall"
[/quote:569946dc65]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by Paul manata] [/quote:569946dc65]
Paul,
I'm betting somewhere in those two pages that there is clear evidence that there is no merit in works of sanctification, and that the author also affirms what Cavin said:
[quote:569946dc65]Therefore, whenever we hear that he does good to those that observe his law, let us remember that the sons of God are designated by the duty which they ought perpetually to observe, that his reason for adopting us is, that we may reverence him as a father. Hence, if we would not deprive ourselves of the privilege of adoption, we must always strive in the direction of our calling. On the other hand, however, let us remember, that the completion of the Divine mercy depends not on the works of believers, but that God himself fulfill the promise of salvation to those who by right conduct correspond to their calling, because he recognizes the true badges of sons in those only who are directed to good by his Spirit[/quote:569946dc65]
and what Hodge said:
[quote:569946dc65]In the latter sense of the word, regeneration is the commencement of sanctification, and sanctification is the completion of the work commenced in regeneration. As regeneration is an act of God's free grace, so sanctification is a gracious work of God, and eminently of the Holy Spirit. It is attributed to God absolutely (1 Thess. 5:23); to the Son (Eph. 5:25,26); and pre-eminently to the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13), whose special office in the economy of redemption it is to apply the grace secured through the mediation of the Son.[/quote:569946dc65]
Here's what I don't understand. Every Reformed divine is more than willing to affirm that we must indeed work in our sanctification, [b:569946dc65]so long as he gives the proviso[/b:569946dc65] that our sanctification in no way [u:569946dc65]depends[/u:569946dc65] on our works. That is the sum of it. But that is not what the New Perspective and Auburn theology wants us to see. They want us to be kept in the covenant by our works, and the implication is that if we "don't do those things" we will "fall." Funny that would be the implication from the guy who blew it bigger than anyone else in the history of mankind (except probably Adam), and yet was restored to grace by HIs Lord.
Fred,
All I was asking was who said it. I never gave any views of my own. And, it is not a modern theologian. In fact, for a hint, he is one of the guys who you said was a good resource for a systematic theology source. Without getting into anything else...we can agree that, as I have read the whole thing in context...jsut don't want to type twp pages, that he does say man COOPERATES in sanctification...to ad further, he goes on to say that man does nothing in regeneration...implying that he does in sanctification.
Regarding your question, in a sense justifiaction is a duty, as you have pointed out that we have a duty to repent and believe...but when we speak of justification not being a duyt we are talking about forensic justification.
-Paul
and was the one who said this orthodox:
[quote:569946dc65]
"if you do these things you shall never fall"
[/quote:569946dc65]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by Paul manata] [/quote:569946dc65]
Paul,
I'm betting somewhere in those two pages that there is clear evidence that there is no merit in works of sanctification, and that the author also affirms what Cavin said:
[quote:569946dc65]Therefore, whenever we hear that he does good to those that observe his law, let us remember that the sons of God are designated by the duty which they ought perpetually to observe, that his reason for adopting us is, that we may reverence him as a father. Hence, if we would not deprive ourselves of the privilege of adoption, we must always strive in the direction of our calling. On the other hand, however, let us remember, that the completion of the Divine mercy depends not on the works of believers, but that God himself fulfill the promise of salvation to those who by right conduct correspond to their calling, because he recognizes the true badges of sons in those only who are directed to good by his Spirit[/quote:569946dc65]
and what Hodge said:
[quote:569946dc65]In the latter sense of the word, regeneration is the commencement of sanctification, and sanctification is the completion of the work commenced in regeneration. As regeneration is an act of God's free grace, so sanctification is a gracious work of God, and eminently of the Holy Spirit. It is attributed to God absolutely (1 Thess. 5:23); to the Son (Eph. 5:25,26); and pre-eminently to the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13), whose special office in the economy of redemption it is to apply the grace secured through the mediation of the Son.[/quote:569946dc65]
Here's what I don't understand. Every Reformed divine is more than willing to affirm that we must indeed work in our sanctification, [b:569946dc65]so long as he gives the proviso[/b:569946dc65] that our sanctification in no way [u:569946dc65]depends[/u:569946dc65] on our works. That is the sum of it. But that is not what the New Perspective and Auburn theology wants us to see. They want us to be kept in the covenant by our works, and the implication is that if we "don't do those things" we will "fall." Funny that would be the implication from the guy who blew it bigger than anyone else in the history of mankind (except probably Adam), and yet was restored to grace by HIs Lord.
Paul,
Agreed. I should have been much clearer. I really did not mean to impugn you. I was really focused more still on the whole NP/A4 thing. I am of the belief that if the Church (in this case OPC/PCA) does not address this issue, we will be dead-letter inside of 25 years. By dead I don't mean no subscription, or no-presuppositionalism, or no-6 literal days (all I of which I hold dear), but no-gospel.
That is why I am in such a dander about these things.
We can affirm, I think with O Palmer Robertson, when he was asked:
"Is the covenant unilateral or bilateral?" and "Is sanctification monergistic or synergistic?"
And he answered: "Yes."
There are important qualifications and context to these questions, that the A4 tend to ignore and give short-shrift (Schlissel is particularly abominable here in his attempts to be as blunt and annoying as possible):
On the side of the fulfillment of the conditions, the covenant is monergistic ¨ it is Godfs power that fulfills them
On the side of the requirements of the covenant, the covenant is synergistic (asymmetrical synergism)
For example: faith ¨ we are required to believe, but God provides the faith
Sanctification ¨ we are required to obey the imperatives (it is interesting that there are actually more imperatives in the NT than the OT), but God is the One Who sovereignly enables us to obey
I think we are in complete agreement here, aren't we?
Agreed. I should have been much clearer. I really did not mean to impugn you. I was really focused more still on the whole NP/A4 thing. I am of the belief that if the Church (in this case OPC/PCA) does not address this issue, we will be dead-letter inside of 25 years. By dead I don't mean no subscription, or no-presuppositionalism, or no-6 literal days (all I of which I hold dear), but no-gospel.
That is why I am in such a dander about these things.
We can affirm, I think with O Palmer Robertson, when he was asked:
"Is the covenant unilateral or bilateral?" and "Is sanctification monergistic or synergistic?"
And he answered: "Yes."
There are important qualifications and context to these questions, that the A4 tend to ignore and give short-shrift (Schlissel is particularly abominable here in his attempts to be as blunt and annoying as possible):
On the side of the fulfillment of the conditions, the covenant is monergistic ¨ it is Godfs power that fulfills them
On the side of the requirements of the covenant, the covenant is synergistic (asymmetrical synergism)
For example: faith ¨ we are required to believe, but God provides the faith
Sanctification ¨ we are required to obey the imperatives (it is interesting that there are actually more imperatives in the NT than the OT), but God is the One Who sovereignly enables us to obey
I think we are in complete agreement here, aren't we?
[quote:6a30bf1cd3][i:6a30bf1cd3]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:6a30bf1cd3]
[quote:6a30bf1cd3]
I think we are in complete agreement here, aren't we?
[/quote:6a30bf1cd3]
yes we are!
-Paul [/quote:6a30bf1cd3]
Forgetta 'bout it. We gotta be, 'caus we're gumbas.
[quote:6a30bf1cd3]
I think we are in complete agreement here, aren't we?
[/quote:6a30bf1cd3]
yes we are!
-Paul [/quote:6a30bf1cd3]
Forgetta 'bout it. We gotta be, 'caus we're gumbas.
My quote from Arminius was to show that even a heretic can get a few things right from time to time.
(I also had quotes that we all would agree with taken from Charles Taze Russell who founded the JWs and one from the Koran that was similar...lost them though....they are somewhere around here)
:shocked2:
(I also had quotes that we all would agree with taken from Charles Taze Russell who founded the JWs and one from the Koran that was similar...lost them though....they are somewhere around here)
:shocked2:
turmeric
Megerator
[quote:b86d9a8e24][i:b86d9a8e24]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:b86d9a8e24]
[quote:b86d9a8e24][i:b86d9a8e24]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:b86d9a8e24]
Craig,
You got it right...I said, "somebody has been visiting cmfnow.
[b:b86d9a8e24]Now, back to the game...who said THIS?:[/b:b86d9a8e24]
[quote:b86d9a8e24]
"The believer cooperates with God the Spirit in the use of the means of sanctification. Sanctification is both grace and duty....'work out your own salvation with fear and trembeling.' Hence sanctification is the subject of a command....Regeneration, being the sole work of God, is a grace but not a duty. It is nowhere enjoyned upon man as a duty to regenerate himself."
[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
now who said it? (never gonna guess). And, do you agree?
-Paul [/quote:b86d9a8e24]
Paul,
Is justification a duty? There is a command involved - repent and believe.
[quote:b86d9a8e24]As thus defined, repentance is, like faith, an evangelical grace, given to us for Christ's sake, as well as a duty obligatory upon us. What is here said of repentance is equally true of every characteristic experience of the subject of regeneration and sanctification. Christ is the vine; we are the branches. But we see also free, accountable agents. Every Christian duty is therefore a grace; for without him we can do nothing. (John 15:5). And equally every Christian grace is a duty; because the grace is given to us to exercise, and it finds its true result and expression only in the duty.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
I'm not sure who said this, but knowing the rules of the game - give a citation with a buzzword that is troublesome (here, "duty" ) and will make someone knee-jerk to condemn the statement, and then viola! it is Calvin, or Hodge or Owen or some sort - my guess is either R.C. Sproul or Robert Reymond. The language is too modern to be a Puritan or Calvin.
They key is to take a quote with no context, none of the qualifications and try and elicit a response. (The reverse works equally well - to take a seemingly orthodox quote and the viola! it is NT Wright)
Let me ask this, is the following true:
[quote:b86d9a8e24]Here we come to the doctrine of sanctification. Let us consider how this gradual work relates to regeneration, the destruction of sin, the entirety of man, perfection and grace.
1. God, having implanted in regeneration a new spiritual nature in the subject of his grace, always continues to foster and develop that principle, by the indwelling of his Word and Spirit, until it attains full perfection.
The word "to sanctify" is used in two different senses in Scripture.
(1) To consecrate, or set apart from a common to a sacred use. (John 10:36; Matt. 23:17.)
(2) To render morally pure or holy. (1 Cor. 6:11; Heb. 13:12.) In the latter sense of the word, regeneration is the commencement of sanctification, and sanctification is the completion of the work commenced in regeneration. As regeneration is an act of God's free grace, so sanctification is a gracious work of God, and eminently of the Holy Spirit. It is attributed to God absolutely (1 Thess. 5:23); to the Son (Eph. 5:25,26); and pre-eminently to the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13), whose special office in the economy of redemption it is to apply the grace secured through the mediation of the Son.
The means of sanctification are of two distinct orders-(a) inward and (b) outward.
The inward means of sanctification is Faith. Faith is the instrument of our justification-and hence of our deliverance from condemnation and communion with God-the organ of our union with Christ and fellowship with his Spirit. Faith, moreover, is that act of the regenerated soul whereby it embraces and experiences the power of the truth, and whereby the inward experiences of the heart and the outward actions of the life are brought into obedience to the truth.
The outward means of sanctification are-
(1) The truth as revealed in the inspired Scriptures: "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth." (John 17:17,19.) "As new-born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." (1 Pet. 1:22; 2:2.) The truth, as the outward means of sanctification, stands in correlation to faith, the inward means of it. Conf. Faith, chap. 14., s. 2: This faith "acteth differently upon that which every particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come," By this means the truth nourishes and exercises the principles of grace implanted in the soul.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
or this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]The infallible certainty of the Divine operations on behalf of and within His saints and the mode of their working cannot be insisted upon too emphatically or repeated too often. On the one hand, the crown of honor and glory must be ascribed to the King Himself; and on the other hand, the response and concurtence or loyalty of His subjects is to be made equally plain. God preserves His people by renewing them in the inner man day by day (2 Cor. 4:16), by quickening them according to His Word, by granting them fresh supplies of grace, and also by moving them to heed His warnings and respond to His exhortations; in a word, by working in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). Thus our portrayal of some of the benefits and fruits of this doctrine will be governed by our viewpoint: whether we trace out what follows faith's appropriating of the Divine promises or what follows from faith's appropriation of the Divine precepts. God has promised to carry forward in sanctification and complete in glorification the work begun in regeneration, yet not without requiring us to perform the duties of piety and avoid everything contrary thereto.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
or what about this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]The end of the Divine calling is to convert sinners into saints or holy persons. Their sanctification is not an eternal or figurative consecration, as that of Israel was, but a real consecration by which they are made to give themselves to God. It arises from union with Jesus Christ, which is the source of the sanctification of His people; and it consists in internal purity of heart, for God purifies the heart by faith. It supposes a real change of heart and disposition, a new creation, for "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature." "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." They were not then saints by natural birth, nor did they make themselves saints either in whole or in part; but they were made so altogether by sovereign grace resulting from sovereign love. All believers are saints, and in one sense all of them are equally sanctified. They are equally separated or consecrated to God, and equally justified, but they are not all equally holy. The work of sanctification in them is progressive. There are babes, and young men, and fathers in Christ. Some are weak in faith, and some are strong; but none of them are yet perfect, neither have they attained to that measure of holiness at which it is their duty constantly to aim, Philippians 3:12. They are therefore to forget those things which are behind, and to reach forth unto those things which are before, and are commanded to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." "Certainly, according to Paul," says Calvin on this place, "the praise of our salvation does not depend upon our own power, but is derived entirely from the fountain of God's love to us. What other cause but His own goodness can, moreover, be assigned for His love? On this also depends His calling, by which, in His own time, He seals the adoption in those who were first gratuitously chosen by Him. From these premises the conclusion follows, that none truly associate themselves with the faithful who do not place a certain degree of confidence in the Lord's kindness to them: although undeserving and wretched sinners, being called by His goodness, they aspire to holiness. For He hath not called us to uncleanness, but to holiness."[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
or this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]Herein, indeed, is a humbling truth, yet a fact it is that Christians are, in themselves, incapable of discharging their duty. Though the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts and a principle of holiness (or new nature) communicated to them, yet they are unable to perform the good they ardently desire to do. Not only are they still very ignorant of many of the requirements of God's revealed will, but indwelling sin ever opposes and seeks to incline their hearts in a contrary direction. Thus it is imperative that they daily seek from God fresh supplies of grace. Though assured that God shall surely complete His good work in us (Phil. 1:6), that does not render needless our crying to Him "that performeth all things for me [us]" (Ps. 57:2, brackets mine). Nor does the privilege of prayer release us from the obligation of obedience.Rather, in prayer we are to beg Him to quicken us to the performance of those duties He requires. The blessing of access to God is not designed to discharge us from the regular and diligent use of all the means God has appointed for our practical sanctification, but is meant to provide for our seeking of the Divine blessing on our use of all the means of grace. Our duty is this: to ask God to work in us "both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13); to avoid quenching His Spirit by slothfulness and disobedience, especially after we have prayed for His sweet influences (I Thess. 5:19); and to use the grace He has already given us.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
how about this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]They were elect through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The end and last result of election is eternal life and salvation; but, before this can be accomplished, every elect person must be sanctified by the Spirit, and justified by the blood of Jesus. God's decree for man's salvation always operates through sanctification of the Spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus. By sanctification here understand, not a federal sanctification only, but a real one, begun in regeneration, whereby we are renewed after the image of God and made new creatures, and carried on in the daily exercise of holiness, mortifying our sins more and more, and living to God in all the duties of a Christian life, which is here summed up in one word, obedience, comprehending all the duties of Christianity. By the Spirit some would have the apostle to mean the spirit of man, the subject sanctified. The legal or typical sanctification operated no further than the purifying of the flesh, but the Christian dispensation takes effect upon the spirit of man, and purifies that. Others, with better reason, think that by spirit is meant the Holy Ghost, the author of sanctification. He renews the mind, mortifies our sins (Rom. 8:13), and produces his excellent fruits in the hearts of Christians, Gal. 5:22, 23. This sanctification of the Spirit implies the use of means. Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth, Jn. 17:17. Unto obedience. This word, as it is pointed in our translation, is referred to what goes before it, and denotes the end of sanctification, which is, to bring rebellious sinners to obedience again, to universal obedience, to obey the truth and gospel of Christ.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
lastly, this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]Christ is not only made to them righteousness, but sanctification; by sanctification, I do not mean a bare hypocritical attendance on outward ordinances, though rightly informed Christians will think it their duty and privilege constantly to attend on all outward ordinances. Nor do I mean by sanctification a bare outward reformation, and a few transient convictions, or a little legal sorrow; for all this an unsanctified man may have; but, by sanctification I mean a total renovation of the whole man: by the righteousness of Christ, believers come legally, by sanctification they are made spiritually, alive; by the one they are entitled to, by the other they are made meet for, glory. They are sanctified, therefore, throughout, in spirit, soul, and body.
Their understandings, which were dark before, now become light in the Lord; and their wills, before contrary to, now become one with the will of God; their affections are now set on things above; their memory is now filled with divine things; their natural consciences are now enlightened; their members, which were before instruments of uncleanness, and of iniquity into iniquity, are now new creatures; 'old things are passed away, all things are become new', in their hearts: sin has now no longer dominion over them; they are freed from the power, though not the indwelling of being, of it; they are holy both in heart and life, in all manner of conversation: they are made partakers of a divine nature, and from Jesus Christ, they receive grace; and every grace that is in Christ, is copied and transcribed into their souls; they are transformed into his likeness; he is formed within them; they dwell in him, and he in them; they are led by the Spirit, and bring forth the fruits thereof; they know that Chris is their Emmanuel, God with and in them; they are living temples of the Holy Ghost. And therefore, being a holy habitation unto the Lord, the whole Trinity dwells and walks in them; even here, they sit together with Christ in heavenly places, and are vitally united to him, their Head, by a living faith; their Redeemer, their Maker, is their husband; they are flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone; they talk, they walk with him, as a man talketh and walketh with his friend; in short, they are one with Christ, even as Jesus Christ and the Father are one.
Thus is Christ made to believers sanctification.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
Notice as well that I have given more context than any of the previous quotes. Context is always the key.
Was the one who said this orthodox? [quote:b86d9a8e24]He shall give His angels charge over you[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco] [/quote:b86d9a8e24]
Wesley? Sanctification by faith?
[quote:b86d9a8e24][i:b86d9a8e24]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:b86d9a8e24]
Craig,
You got it right...I said, "somebody has been visiting cmfnow.
[b:b86d9a8e24]Now, back to the game...who said THIS?:[/b:b86d9a8e24]
[quote:b86d9a8e24]
"The believer cooperates with God the Spirit in the use of the means of sanctification. Sanctification is both grace and duty....'work out your own salvation with fear and trembeling.' Hence sanctification is the subject of a command....Regeneration, being the sole work of God, is a grace but not a duty. It is nowhere enjoyned upon man as a duty to regenerate himself."
[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
now who said it? (never gonna guess). And, do you agree?
-Paul [/quote:b86d9a8e24]
Paul,
Is justification a duty? There is a command involved - repent and believe.
[quote:b86d9a8e24]As thus defined, repentance is, like faith, an evangelical grace, given to us for Christ's sake, as well as a duty obligatory upon us. What is here said of repentance is equally true of every characteristic experience of the subject of regeneration and sanctification. Christ is the vine; we are the branches. But we see also free, accountable agents. Every Christian duty is therefore a grace; for without him we can do nothing. (John 15:5). And equally every Christian grace is a duty; because the grace is given to us to exercise, and it finds its true result and expression only in the duty.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
I'm not sure who said this, but knowing the rules of the game - give a citation with a buzzword that is troublesome (here, "duty" ) and will make someone knee-jerk to condemn the statement, and then viola! it is Calvin, or Hodge or Owen or some sort - my guess is either R.C. Sproul or Robert Reymond. The language is too modern to be a Puritan or Calvin.
They key is to take a quote with no context, none of the qualifications and try and elicit a response. (The reverse works equally well - to take a seemingly orthodox quote and the viola! it is NT Wright)
Let me ask this, is the following true:
[quote:b86d9a8e24]Here we come to the doctrine of sanctification. Let us consider how this gradual work relates to regeneration, the destruction of sin, the entirety of man, perfection and grace.
1. God, having implanted in regeneration a new spiritual nature in the subject of his grace, always continues to foster and develop that principle, by the indwelling of his Word and Spirit, until it attains full perfection.
The word "to sanctify" is used in two different senses in Scripture.
(1) To consecrate, or set apart from a common to a sacred use. (John 10:36; Matt. 23:17.)
(2) To render morally pure or holy. (1 Cor. 6:11; Heb. 13:12.) In the latter sense of the word, regeneration is the commencement of sanctification, and sanctification is the completion of the work commenced in regeneration. As regeneration is an act of God's free grace, so sanctification is a gracious work of God, and eminently of the Holy Spirit. It is attributed to God absolutely (1 Thess. 5:23); to the Son (Eph. 5:25,26); and pre-eminently to the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13), whose special office in the economy of redemption it is to apply the grace secured through the mediation of the Son.
The means of sanctification are of two distinct orders-(a) inward and (b) outward.
The inward means of sanctification is Faith. Faith is the instrument of our justification-and hence of our deliverance from condemnation and communion with God-the organ of our union with Christ and fellowship with his Spirit. Faith, moreover, is that act of the regenerated soul whereby it embraces and experiences the power of the truth, and whereby the inward experiences of the heart and the outward actions of the life are brought into obedience to the truth.
The outward means of sanctification are-
(1) The truth as revealed in the inspired Scriptures: "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth." (John 17:17,19.) "As new-born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." (1 Pet. 1:22; 2:2.) The truth, as the outward means of sanctification, stands in correlation to faith, the inward means of it. Conf. Faith, chap. 14., s. 2: This faith "acteth differently upon that which every particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come," By this means the truth nourishes and exercises the principles of grace implanted in the soul.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
or this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]The infallible certainty of the Divine operations on behalf of and within His saints and the mode of their working cannot be insisted upon too emphatically or repeated too often. On the one hand, the crown of honor and glory must be ascribed to the King Himself; and on the other hand, the response and concurtence or loyalty of His subjects is to be made equally plain. God preserves His people by renewing them in the inner man day by day (2 Cor. 4:16), by quickening them according to His Word, by granting them fresh supplies of grace, and also by moving them to heed His warnings and respond to His exhortations; in a word, by working in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). Thus our portrayal of some of the benefits and fruits of this doctrine will be governed by our viewpoint: whether we trace out what follows faith's appropriating of the Divine promises or what follows from faith's appropriation of the Divine precepts. God has promised to carry forward in sanctification and complete in glorification the work begun in regeneration, yet not without requiring us to perform the duties of piety and avoid everything contrary thereto.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
or what about this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]The end of the Divine calling is to convert sinners into saints or holy persons. Their sanctification is not an eternal or figurative consecration, as that of Israel was, but a real consecration by which they are made to give themselves to God. It arises from union with Jesus Christ, which is the source of the sanctification of His people; and it consists in internal purity of heart, for God purifies the heart by faith. It supposes a real change of heart and disposition, a new creation, for "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature." "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." They were not then saints by natural birth, nor did they make themselves saints either in whole or in part; but they were made so altogether by sovereign grace resulting from sovereign love. All believers are saints, and in one sense all of them are equally sanctified. They are equally separated or consecrated to God, and equally justified, but they are not all equally holy. The work of sanctification in them is progressive. There are babes, and young men, and fathers in Christ. Some are weak in faith, and some are strong; but none of them are yet perfect, neither have they attained to that measure of holiness at which it is their duty constantly to aim, Philippians 3:12. They are therefore to forget those things which are behind, and to reach forth unto those things which are before, and are commanded to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." "Certainly, according to Paul," says Calvin on this place, "the praise of our salvation does not depend upon our own power, but is derived entirely from the fountain of God's love to us. What other cause but His own goodness can, moreover, be assigned for His love? On this also depends His calling, by which, in His own time, He seals the adoption in those who were first gratuitously chosen by Him. From these premises the conclusion follows, that none truly associate themselves with the faithful who do not place a certain degree of confidence in the Lord's kindness to them: although undeserving and wretched sinners, being called by His goodness, they aspire to holiness. For He hath not called us to uncleanness, but to holiness."[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
or this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]Herein, indeed, is a humbling truth, yet a fact it is that Christians are, in themselves, incapable of discharging their duty. Though the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts and a principle of holiness (or new nature) communicated to them, yet they are unable to perform the good they ardently desire to do. Not only are they still very ignorant of many of the requirements of God's revealed will, but indwelling sin ever opposes and seeks to incline their hearts in a contrary direction. Thus it is imperative that they daily seek from God fresh supplies of grace. Though assured that God shall surely complete His good work in us (Phil. 1:6), that does not render needless our crying to Him "that performeth all things for me [us]" (Ps. 57:2, brackets mine). Nor does the privilege of prayer release us from the obligation of obedience.Rather, in prayer we are to beg Him to quicken us to the performance of those duties He requires. The blessing of access to God is not designed to discharge us from the regular and diligent use of all the means God has appointed for our practical sanctification, but is meant to provide for our seeking of the Divine blessing on our use of all the means of grace. Our duty is this: to ask God to work in us "both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13); to avoid quenching His Spirit by slothfulness and disobedience, especially after we have prayed for His sweet influences (I Thess. 5:19); and to use the grace He has already given us.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
how about this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]They were elect through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The end and last result of election is eternal life and salvation; but, before this can be accomplished, every elect person must be sanctified by the Spirit, and justified by the blood of Jesus. God's decree for man's salvation always operates through sanctification of the Spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus. By sanctification here understand, not a federal sanctification only, but a real one, begun in regeneration, whereby we are renewed after the image of God and made new creatures, and carried on in the daily exercise of holiness, mortifying our sins more and more, and living to God in all the duties of a Christian life, which is here summed up in one word, obedience, comprehending all the duties of Christianity. By the Spirit some would have the apostle to mean the spirit of man, the subject sanctified. The legal or typical sanctification operated no further than the purifying of the flesh, but the Christian dispensation takes effect upon the spirit of man, and purifies that. Others, with better reason, think that by spirit is meant the Holy Ghost, the author of sanctification. He renews the mind, mortifies our sins (Rom. 8:13), and produces his excellent fruits in the hearts of Christians, Gal. 5:22, 23. This sanctification of the Spirit implies the use of means. Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth, Jn. 17:17. Unto obedience. This word, as it is pointed in our translation, is referred to what goes before it, and denotes the end of sanctification, which is, to bring rebellious sinners to obedience again, to universal obedience, to obey the truth and gospel of Christ.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
lastly, this?
[quote:b86d9a8e24]Christ is not only made to them righteousness, but sanctification; by sanctification, I do not mean a bare hypocritical attendance on outward ordinances, though rightly informed Christians will think it their duty and privilege constantly to attend on all outward ordinances. Nor do I mean by sanctification a bare outward reformation, and a few transient convictions, or a little legal sorrow; for all this an unsanctified man may have; but, by sanctification I mean a total renovation of the whole man: by the righteousness of Christ, believers come legally, by sanctification they are made spiritually, alive; by the one they are entitled to, by the other they are made meet for, glory. They are sanctified, therefore, throughout, in spirit, soul, and body.
Their understandings, which were dark before, now become light in the Lord; and their wills, before contrary to, now become one with the will of God; their affections are now set on things above; their memory is now filled with divine things; their natural consciences are now enlightened; their members, which were before instruments of uncleanness, and of iniquity into iniquity, are now new creatures; 'old things are passed away, all things are become new', in their hearts: sin has now no longer dominion over them; they are freed from the power, though not the indwelling of being, of it; they are holy both in heart and life, in all manner of conversation: they are made partakers of a divine nature, and from Jesus Christ, they receive grace; and every grace that is in Christ, is copied and transcribed into their souls; they are transformed into his likeness; he is formed within them; they dwell in him, and he in them; they are led by the Spirit, and bring forth the fruits thereof; they know that Chris is their Emmanuel, God with and in them; they are living temples of the Holy Ghost. And therefore, being a holy habitation unto the Lord, the whole Trinity dwells and walks in them; even here, they sit together with Christ in heavenly places, and are vitally united to him, their Head, by a living faith; their Redeemer, their Maker, is their husband; they are flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone; they talk, they walk with him, as a man talketh and walketh with his friend; in short, they are one with Christ, even as Jesus Christ and the Father are one.
Thus is Christ made to believers sanctification.[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
Notice as well that I have given more context than any of the previous quotes. Context is always the key.
Was the one who said this orthodox? [quote:b86d9a8e24]He shall give His angels charge over you[/quote:b86d9a8e24]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco]
[Edited on 3-6-2004 by fredtgreco] [/quote:b86d9a8e24]
Wesley? Sanctification by faith?
twogunfighter
Puritan Board Freshman
Did any of you gents read Wilson's recent Credenda Agenda articles dealing with this subject? If so did you find them helpful in clearing up the confusion? My position remains unchanged (Wilson suporter) but thought others might want to check out the articles.
luvroftheWord
Puritan Board Sophomore
I agree with you, Chuck, though to be honest, I never was really confused by Wilson's position. I guess I just gave him the benefit of the doubt, and low and behold, I was right.
- Status
