Lifting hands, expressing emotion ?

[LifeInReturn]

I was talking to my friend Brandon about the disconnect between sound doctrine and worship. In most PCA churches, the teaching is on point, but the worship is ‘dry’. By ‘dry’, I mean there is no lifting of hands, no moving, just standing there holding your hymn book and singing along with everyone. At the charismatic churches, the teaching is not always on point, but the worship is. Hands are raised, knees are bent. Personally, I am a ‘lift hands’ type of girl when singing, praying, and worshipping. I kneel and sometimes tears are shed, but if I were to do that at my current church (a PCA), I’d be looked at as if I just grew an arm out of my forehead. Where is the ‘happy medium’ ? One of the many things I admire about Epiphany Fellowship (in Philly) is that there is a beautiful merge of the two - doctrinally sound teaching and heartfelt worship. I’d love to be able to be in church with my hands raised while singing hymns without being looked at in an odd fashion. In this area, I think the church lacks… no proper marriage of the two. Emotionalism has been so pimped and abused that anytime emotion is expressed in a worship setting in a conservative church, it’s looked down upon. That’s a very sad thing. I’ve been in pentecostal / charismatic churches where people have been running around the church, screaming at the top of their lungs… I’ve been hit in the back of my head before by a woman sitting behind me who ‘caught the spirit’. I believe that God is a God of order and not confusion, so I think those acts have cast a bad light on true heartfelt appreciation of the Lord.

Thoughts ?

 

[Theoretical]

The austerity of true Reformed worship is different than just a simply restrained "traditional" service at another branch of Christianity. I've been reading Darryl Hart's Recovering Mother Kirk (which I got from PCPC's bookstore) and its really helped point out a lot of things about the uniquely rich Reformed heritage of worship. Many others on the board far more experienced will be able to give you a better idea of the distinctives.

One thing in particular that comes to mind is just how alien and trans-cultural Reformed worship is, precisely because of its fixed basis.

 

[Theoretical]

Oh and I'm coming from exactly the opposite perspective as you - I've long been a big fan of stodgy traditionalist, high-church worship, but as I've been reforming I've found inadequacies in that too, as the differences between "traditional" and "reformed" are often profound.

The liturgical Reformed Calvinist approach to worship stands against both traditionalism and more emotive forms of worship, as near I can tell.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

I and many others open our arms for the benediction and blessing, not an essential to the faith and completely at the discretion of the believer.

 

[panta dokimazete]

The Reformed are often guilty of taking a short splice of church history and trying to make it normative for Christians of all ages as far as external mannerism.

, Trevor.

Make that ages and cultures...

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Finally. A constructive convo on this topic.

I'll post here 2morrow when I have a little more time.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Good points Trevor, I concur!

 

[jolivetti]

As part of the conversation, I would like to challenge the hidden assumption that "quiet" or "reserved" (or more derogatorily, "dry") necessarily means "unemotional." Until that is proven, this conversation is still mostly dealing with preferences based on personality rather than Biblical commands.

For example, though I often teach and remind the flock that the Lord's Supper is a time of great celebration, it remains a very quiet time. Am I lying? Are we doing something wrong? I really don't believe so, because joy can just as easily be quiet as loud, still as active.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Most of this comes down to taste, custom and cultural tradition. A Scotsman is not going to worship like an Indonesian or African. Any appeal to an exclusively "Reformed" posture of worship is mere culture being mistaken for Gospel.

The Reformed are often guilty of taking a short splice of church history and trying to make it normative for Christians of all ages as far as external mannerism. The Puritans were childen of their culture and day also. Much of what they did externally was not Christian merely but very European and British, to include the tight lipped un-emotionalism of many.


I see lots of emotion in Scripture.

My Indonesian friends often raise their hands for worship (lifting up holy hands). Those from Muslim backgrounds pray with extended hands palm up as in their formerly Muslim ways. They also look up at the heavens instead of down at the dirt when they pray...which, really, makes more sense. Why do we look down or fold our hands palms together. WHy not lay prostrate on the floor or bow our knee to the Father (I think we do not kneel for prayer because the early Reformers were anti-Catholic and did not even want to appear as a kneeling Catholic).

I'm not willing to call simplicity in worship a Western thing Trevor. If anything, the imperial Western style that is exported as normative these days is praise choruses and not simple hymns. I'll be honest with you, if we could find a form that could unite the cultures in its simplicity rather than make Sunday mornings a place segregated by music preferences then that would be my ideal. This ain't even an American-Indonesian or American-Japanese thing but it's also predominantly a Black-White thing and Old-Young thing.

Now I'm not against a practice merely because the Reformers removed it early on due to the fact that it reminded people of idolatry. I just would love to have a simple worship music that nobody could say "...this is my culture...."

I used to be uncomfortable with plain hymn singing for instance and missed some of the "experience" (i.e. lifting hands). I now go to a Church that sings 7-11 songs (7 words repeated 11 times with increasing intensity). I miss songs that have doctrine and express real truth in them. As I was teaching on the Psalms yesterday, Worship begins when we understand what God has done and then our hearts overflow in doxology. I don't think the cultural form is the principal thing.

 

[ReformedWretch]

I normally stay out of these things because, well, bcause I seldom find them encouraging. They always start out well and start going too far towards arguments in the end but I'll break my normal stance and comment again.

Many here praise the Psalms, and well they should! I dare say however that some of you who do so may have seen King David as breaking some "principal" in his worship style, and mannerisms.

 

[BJClark]

LifeInReturn,


I felt compelled to raise my hands in worship, and I didn't know how 'other people' would look at me either, but something that really weighed down on my heart concerning that was...I was making other peoples opinions and what THEY would think, more important than what the Holy Spirit laid on my heart to do.

So I started raising my hands in worship when singing as I felt led to do so, a few of the elderly in our church (70's and 80's) have made comments to me, nothing negative, just they had felt led to do the same, but were concerned about how 'others' would percieve them. I just hugged them and let them know, if they feel compelled to raise thier hands in praise for all God has done for them, then raise their hands in praise to God, that IS why we are there anyway, right? to Worship God! Not other people.

But something to consider, if they are looking at you, their focus is on you, and not God. Which is something the Holy Spirit has convicted me of, am I there looking for the approval of men or to worship God?

you never know, others in your congregation may have the same fear you do, "what will 'other people' think if I raise my hands in praise to God when I sing?" Which is ultimately the fear of man, and not God. And you never know, if you lift your hands, if others have the same fear, it may encourage them to overcome the same fear of mans opinion.

 

[calgal]

LifeInReturn,


I felt compelled to raise my hands in worship, and I didn't know how 'other people' would look at me either, but something that really weighed down on my heart concerning that was...I was making other peoples opinions and what THEY would think, more important than what the Holy Spirit laid on my heart to do.

So I started raising my hands in worship when singing as I felt led to do so, a few of the elderly in our church (70's and 80's) have made comments to me, nothing negative, just they had felt led to do the same, but were concerned about how 'others' would percieve them. I just hugged them and let them know, if they feel compelled to raise thier hands in praise for all God has done for them, then raise their hands in praise to God, that IS why we are there anyway, right? to Worship God! Not other people.

But something to consider, if they are looking at you, their focus is on you, and not God. Which is something the Holy Spirit has convicted me of, am I there looking for the approval of men or to worship God?

you never know, others in your congregation may have the same fear you do, "what will 'other people' think if I raise my hands in praise to God when I sing?" Which is ultimately the fear of man, and not God. And you never know, if you lift your hands, if others have the same fear, it may encourage them to overcome the same fear of mans opinion.

The focus should be on worshipping God, not on "look at them!" As long as there is effective preaching of the Word and a proper mindset in the church, raising hands is a non issue for us.

 

[Greg]

As part of the conversation, I would like to challenge the hidden assumption that "quiet" or "reserved" (or more derogatorily, "dry") necessarily means "unemotional." Until that is proven, this conversation is still mostly dealing with preferences based on personality rather than Biblical commands.

Good point Jerod. By nature, I'm one of those that is more of a reserved and laid-back person. So...much of the way my worship will reflect that to an onlooker. A person will look at someone who is quiet by way of the external "appearance" of their worship and not see the sweet worship and communion that they are having with their heavenly Father.

Thank God He sees the hearts of men!

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Most of this comes down to taste, custom and cultural tradition. A Scotsman is not going to worship like an Indonesian or African. Any appeal to an exclusively "Reformed" posture of worship is mere culture being mistaken for Gospel.

The Reformed are often guilty of taking a short splice of church history and trying to make it normative for Christians of all ages as far as external mannerism. The Puritans were childen of their culture and day also. Much of what they did externally was not Christian merely but very European and British, to include the tight lipped un-emotionalism of many.


I see lots of emotion in Scripture.

My Indonesian friends often raise their hands for worship (lifting up holy hands). Those from Muslim backgrounds pray with extended hands palm up as in their formerly Muslim ways. They also look up at the heavens instead of down at the dirt when they pray...which, really, makes more sense. Why do we look down or fold our hands palms together. WHy not lay prostrate on the floor or bow our knee to the Father (I think we do not kneel for prayer because the early Reformers were anti-Catholic and did not even want to appear as a kneeling Catholic).

Trevor, I normally agree with you on these cultural issues, but your assessment here of the Reformed tradition is overly simplistic. When you study the Reformation, the one thing you cannot label Reformed worship is "western." They rejected the cultural expressions of worship in their own day. The Reformers were top notch patristic scholars. Calvin could quote them extensively from memory. The number one goal of the Reformation (next to justification) was the restoration of true worship. Their goal was not to make a new worship form but to return the church back to it's original worship in the early church, an ancient diverse non-Western culture. They desired to purge the man-made traditions of Rome (i.e. a product of western culture). We may argue how successful their attempt was at this. But they were not trying something new. They were trying to get back to the old and true. Hughes Oliphant Old's book on The Patristic Roots of Reformed Worship is a handy resource for this.

 

[CDM]

What do you suppose is meant here

1 Timothy 2:8

KJV

I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

NASB

Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

NIV

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

ESV

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

YLT

I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning;

Curious: Is this everywhere (outside of public worship)? Why are men exorted to do this? Does this exclude women?

 

[Coram Deo]

Good point that I was going to bring out.. The Greek word there really means "Man" gender exclusive...

I also did a study on this recently, I will have to find my notes... But here is a summary...

1. Is does not say "Lift up holy hands during Singing", It says Praying... Different element of worship.
2. It says Men, Not Woman..
3. Old testament scriptures shows only Man lifting up holy hands, or the Elders lifting them up for the people... 8 out 10 ratio shows it to be the elders who lift up the hands...
4. It is a gesture for prayer, not emotionalism..

5. There is a big difference between heart felt worship, and carnal emotionalism in Pentacostal circles... Worship is in Spirit and Truth....
Spirit is a spiritual worship that does not need physical adornment in worship like the temple. It could also mean worship in the heart with a spirit filled heart.. and Truth, by the truth and by only the truth of scripture.. Do not add nor take away what God has commanded for Worship...

There is a emotionalism that comes with Spirit filled heart in worship.. I feel it all the time when I sing the Psalms, or Pray, and even during the sermon. It does not mean it has to have a showy feely external sign with it....

Coram Deo
Michael

P.S. I am sorry if I sound alittle hard on this topic, I have had to deal with this topic in more recent times with some of our Reformed Baptist circles going Charismania along with Post Modernism.....

1 Timothy 2:8
Curious: Is this everywhere (outside of public worship)? Why are men exorted to do this? Does this exclude women?

 

[Coram Deo]

I believe the worship of the bible to be transcultural... I do not believe culture should ever fit in worship..... David Wells said it best... Those who are most relevant to the culture are those who are most irrelevant to the culture, and those who are irrelevant to the culture are those who has most to say to the culture...

As for bowing of the knees.. I see nothing wrong with that.. It is biblical and I am for one am all for kneelers in church... So was the Reformers and some of the Puritans....

Puritans practiced lifting up holy hands when their elders prayed the elders lifted up holy hands for the church...

As for prostrating, it is never mentioned for public worship in the bible only private worship.. When one is so grieved for what they have done... never in public worship...

Hey, I am all for austerity, Lets bring it on.....


Coram Deo,
Michael

P.S. As for Holy Kiss, I should study that one alittle more, but I have a severe weak immune system... So does that mean I should kiss every brethren and get everything they have and maybe just maybe die...

The NT speaks of raising holy hands, of bowing the knee. The Bible even speaks of prostrating one's self before the Lord. Weeping and grieving and very visible expressions of joy are common in the Bible, but Reformation era Europe did not see much of this as fit. England particularly values austerity and a stiff upper lip.

Instead of lifting our hands and our eyes to heaven, instead, we stand stock still or close the eyes and look at our feet.

Instead of greeting one another with a holy kiss, we give a quick handshake and a few social niceties.

 

[Ravens]

I question the identification of "austere and orderly" with Western.

Without going in to overabundant detail (and I guess I'm not an expert, more of a layman's interest in Northern European pre-Christian religions), these "Western" peoples (at least the ones being referred to) were primarily made up of Teutons and Celts. The same Germanic tribes that worshipped Woden, that frothed themselves up into berserkergang, practiced seidhr (shamanism), ecstatically danced for the Byzantine king (we suppose), and had long mead fests of boasting and drinking.

Greece and Rome had flourishing mystery cults and what not at the time of Christianity, and gods who were certainly anything but staid and complacent.

So when you look at Reformation Europe, or patristic worship, maybe you should think, "Christianity transformed these barbarous peoples, gave them a respect for the true and living God, because such order in worship was certainly not natural to them" more than "white people are so unemotional, they really don't know how to worship like we do." And by that I am not defending Caucasians, just order in worship.

I guess its a chicken and the egg thing. I just don't see much respectful posturing and order in worship when I read about indigenous European faith and praxis.

 

[Ravens]

So does that mean I should kiss every brethren and get everything they have and maybe just maybe die...

If you were a bit more Purpose Driven you would consider the above to be all joy, and nothing more. I guess you're just one of those "carnal Christians."

 

[ReformedWretch]

Where would kissing each other fit in with our manliness?

 

[Coram Deo]

If you were a bit more Purpose Driven you would consider the above to be all joy, and nothing more. I guess you're just one of those "carnal Christians."

Nay, I just prefer bringing back the old fashion austere Old World Europrean bowing and curtseying.. Saves from all the germs...

 

[satz]

1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Here is a verse I found interesting. It seems even in a chapter where he is enforcing orderliness in the worship, Paul seems to imply that spontaeneous 'Amens!' during the service would not be inappropriate.

I guess I agree with those who have said that reverence and fear for God need not equal to stiff formality.

 

[Davidius]

Public worship is not about our individual devotion and piety. In the modern church everything has become about "me and Jesus" and "how I express myself to him." Among other things, this is why the RPW has been all but destroyed. In public worship we gather to hear from God and respond to him as an organized unit. Letting individuals in the congregation express their devotion however they want in the pews leads to a fragmented body worshipping "on their own" instead of with everyone around them, which can be distracting and take away from the unification of the worshipping body of saints. I agree with earlier comments about certain expressions being perfectly fine for private worship. I also agree that one can have an emotional response to God's word without having to lift his or her hands or kneel when everyone else around them is not doing so.

 

[Davidius]

As for prostrating one's self, how do you prove that it is only appropriate in private worship? I agree that it seems more fitting, but what if it fit in with cultural patterns somewhere in the world. I know some former Muslims that put their face to the ground as in the Muslim way still when they pray. This is a form of prostration.

Perhaps prostration need to be restricted to private worship, but if we're going to do it in the public assembly couldn't we have a time when the entire congregation prostrates (or kneels) and prays (see my above comment)? When a few people here and there are doing their own thing it detracts from the purpose of unified public worship. Also, the fact that something may fit in with cultural patterns in the world is obviously not a reason to incorporate that act into Christian worship. I'm sure you know this, but I just wanted to state it again. The issue of prostration, as you've already acknowledged, just happens to be one thing we share.

 

[Coram Deo]

1. But every example in scripture either shows All "Man" in the old testament lifting up their hands while praying (Never woman) and they do it in one accord never as a single man or the elders in the old testament do it for the people... Scripture Interpret Scripture... 1 Timothy can not be pulled out of context of other Scripture....

2. It was never presumably during songs.. Only Prayer.. Old and New Testaments testify...

3. About kneeling... Sad but true... We need to practice more biblical gestures while praying...

4. As for prostrating, scripture only shows examples of it during private worship, never public.


Finally, as for austerity, I like what Pastor Al Martin from Trinity Baptist Church of Montville said during his Sermon on Worship.. Solemn JOY, and EXBURANT Solemnity.. (Psalm 2, and Hebrews 12:28). Rejoice with Tembling, and Reverance with Awe...

Michael

P.S. I also totally agree with what he said in his Conclusion... "Brethren, Resist unto blood any effort to profane God's Worship even at the other edges of it's purity and it's Sanctity" RESIST UNTO BLOOD...

Thunaer:

The Puritan elders lifted their hands and even now many pastors raise their hands during the benediction, but this is not what is primarily being addressed. What is being mentioned seems to be the laymen raising their hands. Presumably usually during songs or prayer.

Also, it appears that for the most part kneeling did get left by the wayside among the Presbyterians, though I am sure some still did it.

As for prostrating one's self, how do you prove that it is only appropriate in private worship? I agree that it seems more fitting, but what if it fit in with cultural patterns somewhere in the world. I know some former Muslims that put their face to the ground as in the Muslim way still when they pray. This is a form of prostration.


WHen you say that you are for austerity are you merely stating your tastes, or are you in some way stating that an austere form of worship is more biblical than an exuberant form of worship?

 

[raekwon]

Here is a verse I found interesting. It seems even in a chapter where he is enforcing orderliness in the worship, Paul seems to imply that spontaeneous 'Amens!' during the service would not be inappropriate.

I guess I agree with those who have said that reverence and fear for God need not equal to stiff formality.

Funny you should say that . . . a couple of years ago, when we first started visiting the church we're now members of, I would occasionally toss an "Amen" in there when there was a particularly good or glorious point made during the sermon, as had been my practice for years before in C&MA and SBC churches. I don't do it so much anymore (ie: never). I guess the eerie silence afterward stifled me.

I've now resorted to the Presbyterian equivalent: a pensive look, coupled with a nod and a scratching of my chin. Perhaps I can bring the "Amen" back . . .

 

[Davidius]

I've now resorted to the Presbyterian equivalent: a pensive look, coupled with a nod and a scratching of my chin. .

Now that deserves an

 

[Ravens]

I haven't throught the "hands" matter fully through, but personally I don't see a terrible problem with someone raising their hands in a service. However, it does tend to draw attention to them, and more often than not (JMO), such things are "carryovers" from an evangelical and or charismatic upbringing, that the person probably wouldn't have instituted on their own, had they not been raised in that manner.

But there's a vast difference between everyone assuming order in worship, and wondering whether that order should include hand-raising or not, and, conversely, labelling order as "Western" or "European", while "exuberance" and what not is somehow "non-Western" or "non-European". I fail to see how that case could be made based on history, and what we know about the gods and praxis of native European faiths. "Order" is primarily Christian, and non-order is, in my opinion, pagan.

As long as that red herring is done away with, then the "hand" issue is probably a very small one. But there's a vast difference between raising one's hand and whirling, twirling, banner waving, dancing, passing out, etc. And some of the arguments (cultural relativity, "that's your opinion of order") that are used in favor of hand raising, could also be used in favor of the latter.

 

[Poimen]

Public worship is not about our individual devotion and piety. In the modern church everything has become about "me and Jesus" and "how I express myself to him." Among other things, this is why the RPW has been all but destroyed. In public worship we gather to hear from God and respond to him as an organized unit. Letting individuals in the congregation express their devotion however they want in the pews leads to a fragmented body worshipping "on their own" instead of with everyone around them, which can be distracting and take away from the unification of the worshipping body of saints. I agree with earlier comments about certain expressions being perfectly fine for private worship. I also agree that one can have an emotional response to God's word without having to lift his or her hands or kneel when everyone else around them is not doing so.

Thank you. The issue comes down to corporate worship vs. private worship. The scriptures are covenantal; they address the body and the body worships together not seperately.

If people want to raise their hands I have no problem with that, provided they do so as a group and not because they feel like it.

 

[Coram Deo]

Trevor,

I think you are missing the point... It says only man and the scripture tells us together or not at all or the elder does it during prayer... plus it is not during singing but prayer...

As for a dress code... I am all for it... I believe we should all dress in the best clothing we have, NOT street clothing or casual wear.... Think of it this way... What are YOU going to wear if you have been invited in front of a King or President... Your very best suit and tie, or Dress for the ladies....

Now let me ask you, How much more so to dress in your best to go in front of the King of the Universe.....

It is not about show to other people, it is respect for the King of Kings....

I will fight the preference and taste belief to my dying breath.. I have seen it, and at it's worst.... Preference and taste has no room in the worship of God, except maybe circumstances i.e microphones, lights, Heating and Ac, carpet..... but even then we should make the church feel like a church... i.e. Pews vs. chairs, chancel vs. stage.. What is the best in the light of Nature, according to our confessions... I think the light of nature shows us church should be different even in the circumstances.. Pews, chancel... After all are we not ascending to the throne of heaven in the presence of the Lord of Lords.. Lets make church feel lofty then the world around us as long as we do not start adding things against the RPW, i.e. images, statues, etc...

Michael

If you all want conformity in worship, why not issue a dress code too?


There are some matters up to the individual conscience. The problem of our modern church is not people preferring different expressions of worship, it is poor teaching.

There has always been a variety of ways in which worship is expressed. The church body IS a unified whole, one body in Spirit and in doctrine. We do listen and respond to God in worship. This isn't always going to look the same. One stiff Calvinist will scratch his beard, another will nod his head, another will grunt if not say an amen. Unless there is a set of rules regulating total silence, people will respond in different ways. In the end it almost always comes down to preference and taste and is extra-biblical matters of taste almost always comes into play.

If you all want to get all Regulative Principle on me and want the whole church body to do the same thing, then let's make an argument that we MUST lift our hands during worship - if you want conformity.

If you want to obey Scripture and not do your own thing then you MUST lift your hands. In the absence of Scriptures that say do not lift holy hands and the presence of many Scriptures that say, liftup holy hands, then we are thus obligated to lift holy hands:

Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the assembly of Israel and spread out his hands toward heaven…”(1 Kings 8:22; c.f. vs. 54; 2 Chr. 6:12-13).

“I stretch out my hands to you; my soul thirsts for you like a parched land” (Psalm 143:6).

“Lift your hands to him for the lives of your children” (Lam. 2:19; c.f. Ps. 44:20; Lam. 1:17).

“When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood” (Isa. 1:15).

“Let us test and examine our ways, and return to the Lord! Let us lift up our hearts and hands to God in heaven” (Lam. 3:40-41).

Leviticus 9:22 Aaron lifted his hands over the Israelites to bless them.

Jesus lifted his hands over his disciples to bless them just before he ascended (Luke 24:50).

Psalm 63:4 “So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands.”

“lift up your hands in the sanctuary and bless the Lord” (Psalm 134:2, NKJV)!

“Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice” (Psalm 141:2).



And add to that numerous NT verses. It seems that the appropriate posture for prayerful public worship and blessing was the lifting of hands in the air. Nowhere is this rescinded or contradcited in the NT - therefore, better start warming up those shoulder muscles!