like a dog retruns to his vomit...so does the Roman Church

[CDM]

In the interest of fairness and accuracy, Rome has never *left* the doctrine of indulgences. The promotion of them simply fell out of favor in the West.

 

[Jon Lake]

This is a very good business move on their part. With all the lawsuits against them, they are probably in need of some extra cash flow... monetary charity I mean.

Sarah, VERY good point and one I failed to mention, 10 years ago the Lawsuits were all over the news, sadly , with the American 20 second attention span you don't see much of it in the "mainstream", the fact is not ONLY are the payouts from years ago still being dealt with, there continue to be new allegations.It is VERY expensive! Celebate Priesthood! That was a GREAT idea.

 

[William Price]

Sola scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Solus Christus. Soli Deo gloria.

Amen!

 

[BJClark]

CharlieJ;

Second, no one can get out of hell through indulgences, only purgatory. You can, I suppose, indulge your way to heaven, but not out of hell. Indulgences remit only temporal punishment for sin.

There is No such thing as purgatory, so the misunderstanding is not on our part..

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Purgatory is a lie, because no man is able to pay for his own sins, except for eternity in Hell separated from God...That is WHY Christ went to the Cross, because Man is incapable of paying that price for themselves.


Purgatory teaches: (to name a few)

1. Jesus' death and resurrection was NOT Sufficient to pay for our sins.
2. That people in anyway can 'work' or 'buy' their way into heaven--because God needs help saving them from their sin.
3. That God is not GOD, man is.
4. To deny the power of God

210. What is purgatory?

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.

Is Christ's death NOT sufficient to purify a soul to enter heaven without help?

If He is NOT, then He is NOT A GOD WE SHOULD BE FOLLOWING After, Because HE would NOT BE GOD!! He would be a Liar..

The truth is Christ's death was Sufficient, and He doesn't NEED any help from US to save us from God's wrath!!

211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?

Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.

If a man dies without Christ He is doomed for all eternity, and no amount of prayers, works or suffering by others will get His soul into heaven.

The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

God has already punished Sin, He poured out His wrath on His Son.

Lest Christ died in Vain!!!

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God didn't I do enough works and say enough prayers to get out of purgatory?? Didn't I do enough penance???

Act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

This is the same thing..trying to offer up their own sacrifices, and rejoicing in the works of their own hands, as if it will please and appease God.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They stumble at Christ, not going on Faith that Christ and Christ alone is ENOUGH!!

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Jon Lake]

charliej;

second, no one can get out of hell through indulgences, only purgatory. You can, i suppose, indulge your way to heaven, but not out of hell. Indulgences remit only temporal punishment for sin.

there is no such thing as purgatory, so the misunderstanding is not on our part..

purgatory (lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in god's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

purgatory is a lie, because no man is able to pay for his own sins, except for eternity in hell separated from god...that is why Christ went to the cross, because man is incapable of paying that price for themselves.


Purgatory teaches:

1. Jesus' death and resurrection was not sufficient to pay for our sins.
2. That people in anyway can 'work' or 'buy' their way into heaven--because god needs help saving them from their sin.
3. That god is not god, man is.
4. It denies the power of god





is Christ's death not sufficient to purify a soul to enter heaven without help?
Is he not god???



If a man dies without Christ he is doomed for all eternity, and no amount of prayers, works or suffering by others will get his soul into heaven.



God has already punished sin, he poured out his wrath on his son.

Lest Christ died in vain!!!

Jhn 3:36 he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: And he that believeth not the son shall not see life; but the wrath of god abideth on him.


Rom 5:9 much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1th 1:10 and to wait for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1th 5:9-10 for god hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



God didn't i do enough works and say enough prayers to get out of purgatory?? Didn't i do enough penance???

act 7:41 and they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

this is the same thing..trying to offer up their own sacrifices, and rejoicing in the works of their own hands, as if it will please and appease god.

rom 9:32 wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

they stumble at Christ, not going on faith that Christ and Christ alone is enough!!

Rom 11:6 and if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: Otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: Otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Eph 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

well stated!

 

[ExGentibus]

CharlieJ;

Second, no one can get out of hell through indulgences, only purgatory. You can, I suppose, indulge your way to heaven, but not out of hell. Indulgences remit only temporal punishment for sin.

There is No such thing as purgatory, so the misunderstanding is not on our part.

You're absolutely right, and I thank you for your post, but I suspect CharlieJ was not advocating Purgatory He was only stating what the official roman teaching is.

 

[PresbyDane]

Ev'ry time a coin in the coffer rings, another soul from Purgatory springs!

well Luther did not say that, Johan Tetzel did, was it not?

 

[CharlieJ]

Bobbi, I'm not a Romanist, as my presence on this board should indicate. I simply believe that we have a responsibility to articulate others' views in a form which they themselves can recognize.

Rome does not teach that indulgences or purgatory work in addition to Christ. They are aimed entirely differently. Only Christ can grant eternal salvation and remove eternal punishment. However, as both Protestants and Catholics agree, entering into the state of grace does not remove all the temporal penalties for sin. For example, David's baby still died for his sin with Bathsheba. Indulgences and purgatory take care of those leftover consequences earned during lifetime. Purgatory is not punitive, but disciplinary, a continuation of the chastening God gives his children on earth.

There are many, many problems with indulgences and purgatory. However, if we are going to speak to the issue, we have an obligation (9th commandment) to represent it fairly and accurately. Many times Catholics are scared to death by Protestants who insist that they're "doing good works" instead of "believing in Jesus" to get to heaven. There is truth in that, but it's not spoken in such a way that the Catholic can understand what the Protestant is really saying. It all becomes so much smoke and noise until you can get on the same page.

 

[Iakobos_1071]

First, the sale of indulgences has been officially illegal since 1567. Yes, I know that there are back-door ways of getting them through monetary transaction, but they are granted through many other avenues like prayers, charity, and pilgrimage.

Yeah i heard that one way they do it is donations to the church when a loved one dies.