Lord's Supper and the RPW

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Blueridge Believer

Blueridge Believer

Puritan Board Professor
Since it was real wine and bread that out Lord Jesus Christ consecrated at the last supper, would it not be a violation of scripture as well the RPW to use grape juice?
 
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:worms:

(But I like the fact you asked the question)

Scriptures clearly and without question note the use of real wine in 1 Cor and in the Gospel narratives.
 
I think this is an endless debate because the question can't be definitively answered. We can't go back in time and measure the alcohol content of what was served at the last supper, or the wedding at Cana, or any other event involving wine in the New Testament. So, people who are already predisposed to believe that alcohol is contrary to God's law will come up with explanations (which I do not find convincing) that what was served must not have really been fermented. Those who do not see alcohol as inherently contrary to God's law have no reason to believe it was anything other than real wine.

Our congregation passes a tray that has both wine and juice (two different colors)...I wonder sometimes if that goes against the grain of "a common cup," but I suppose it's the act of drinking it together that makes it "common" rather than what's passed around in the tray. I dunno. :um:
 
I believe this is a matter of prudence for a particular church.

When i was in California i visited a church that served wine at the Lord's Supper. When an AA group who were in a treatment program came to worship quite a few couldn't partake because it was wine. These individuals were taking antabuse, which is taken to give terrible reactions if the individual drinks any alcohol. It's such a powerful drug that some even have reactions from the alcohol in their after shave.
 
Would you brethren agree that it is not good to introduce something into worship that is not set forth in Holy Scripture? I ask this question because of a recent "fever" that has come upon me in my study of the RPW and worship. I am finding the more I examine this and other issues the more I have to repent for inventing things that God never commanded or authorized.
 
I have to also wonder if those who think only wine should be used also think only wine without preservatives should be used.
 
Blueridge Believer said:
Since it was real wine and bread that out Lord Jesus Christ consecrated at the last supper, would if not be a violation of scripture as well the RPW to use grape juice?
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Could we rephrase the question to ask, "Would it not be a violation of scripture as well the RPW to use anything other than wine?"

Why is grape juice singled out as a possible substitute for what the Lord instituted?

The real question, in my mind, should be is it a violation to substitute anything for the wine.
 
KMK said:
The real question, in my mind, should be is it a violation to substitute anything for the wine.
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Good point. While in college I actually encountered a group of house-church [a whole other set of problems here, obviously] individuals who had separate communions for various groups - koolaid and cookies, for the kids; tea and "biscuits" for the women; or beer and pretzels for the men. An interesting take on the Lord's Table, but one that demonstrates the extremes that can be reached when Scripture is not our guide in worship.
 
Matthew Henry:
As to the visible signs; these are bread and the cup, the former of which is called bread many times over in this passage, even after what the papists call consecration. What is eaten is called bread, though it be at the same time said to be the body of the Lord, a plain argument that the apostle knew nothing of their monstrous and absurd doctrine of transubstantiation. The latter is as plainly a part of this institution as words can make it. St. Matthew tells us, our Lord bade them all drink of it (Mt 26:27), as if he would, by this expression, lay in a caveat against the papists' depriving the laity of the cup. Bread and the cup are both made use of, because it is a holy feast. Nor is it here, or any where, made necessary, that any particular liquor should be in the cup. In one evangelist, indeed, it is plain that wine was the liquor used by our Saviour, though it was, perhaps, mingled with water, according to the Jewish custom; vide Lightfoot on Matthew 26. But this by no means renders it unlawful to have a sacrament where persons cannot come at wine. In every place of scripture in which we have an account of this part of the institution it is always expressed by a figure. The cup is put for what was in it, without once specifying what the liquor was, in the words of the institution.
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Also, did they distinguish between juice and wine in the biblical era?
I'm wondering if grape juice could still be considered wine since it is made by going through the wine press.
 
But wasn't the Lord's Supper done as part of an actual meal? Wouldn't it be just as much a violation of the RPW to do it during a church service where there is no substantial food being served? And, weren't they reclining on couches? And, didn't they all probably have one common cup? And, weren't there only men present at the first Lord's Supper?

There must be a point at which the RPW simply becomes madness.
 
Grape juice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Welch's Grape Juice
See also: Welch's
The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine. His son Charles E. Welch, also a dentist, eventually gave up his practice to promote grape juice. In 1893 he founded Welch's Grape Juice Company at Westfield, Chautauqua Co. NY. The product was given to visitors at international exhibitions.

As the temperance movement grew, so did the popularity of grape juice. In 1913, Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan served grape juice instead of wine during a full-dress diplomatic function, and in 1914, Josephus Daniels, Secretary of the Navy, forbid any alcoholic drinks be on board of naval ships, while actively replacing them with grape juice. During World War I, the company supplied "grapelade", a type of grape jam, to the military and advertised aggressively. Development of new grape products and sponsorship of radio and television programs made the company very successful.


[edit] Use in religion
See also: Christianity and alcohol
Grape juice, because of its non-alcoholic content, is commonly used by Christian denominations (such as Baptists and Methodists[2]) who oppose the partaking of alcoholic beverages, as the "cup" or "wine" in the Eucharist.

Although alcohol is permitted in Judaism, grape juice is sometimes used as an alternative for kiddush on Shabbat and Jewish holidays and it has the same blessing as wine. However, many authorities maintain that grape juice must be capable of turning into wine naturally in order to be used for kiddush. Since most grape juices today contain preservatives that prevent fermentation, they would not be allowed for kiddush according to this opinion. Common practice, however, is to use any grape juice for kiddush. Note that as a grape-product, grape juice must be certified kosher.
 
CharlieJ said:
But wasn't the Lord's Supper done as part of an actual meal? Wouldn't it be just as much a violation of the RPW to do it during a church service where there is no substantial food being served? And, weren't they reclining on couches? And, didn't they all probably have one common cup? And, weren't there only men present at the first Lord's Supper?

There must be a point at which the RPW simply becomes madness.
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Mr. Johnson,

Hi! I believe the record in I Corithians shows that the Lord's Supper is different than any ordinary meal, it is a love feast. We are requested to eat before we come to the table, lest any man be so hungry and thirsty that he eats and drinks not in proper manner, get drunk and be condemned. Because we share the same loaf of bread and same cup of wine at one table.

Reclining on couches is a circumstance of the Lord's Supper but not an element of the sacrament, proper seating is the same as to recline on couches. Timing I think is also not an element, so I believe it can be administered in the morning or in the evening, both are fine. But wine and bread are elements of the sacrament just as water to baptism. Changing wine into something else is similar to changing water in baptism into some other liquid. Women are allowed at the table is sound deduction from the scripture and is not unnessessary invention of men.

Back in China, the house church I used to attend, everyone drink from one cup of wine and one loaf of bread, now in Greenville, our church practises the same.

I believe it is wrong to replace wine with other drinks, and we should change that practise and follow the Word of God.

Regards,

YX
 
The bread of the first supper was certainly unleavened, its being the time of the passover. Thus we must use matzos only, not leavened bread?
 
I think this is an endless debate because the question can't be definitively answered. We can't go back in time and measure the alcohol content of what was served at the last supper, or the wedding at Cana, or any other event involving wine in the New Testament
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While the question won't be definitively answered right now, I think I can convince you that your argument isn't sound. I think that you will agree with me that wine has different percentages of alcohol. If you are unsure, next time you are at a large store, check out the alcohol content on a bottle of Zinfandel and then look at the label on a bottle of Chardonnay. Every batch of wine that's ever been made had a different level of alcohol. And every batch of wine that's ever been made has some alcohol. There are a few people, mostly Baptist of the KJV only type, who quibble over this (I'm sure you don't; please don't get me wrong!) but no one who's studied the issue doubts that grape juice that has been fermented to include an alcohol content was used at Passover. It's simply cultish and/or silly to claim otherwise.

The harder question to me is the one I heard in PNG. People had never heard of wine, so the Bible translator I lived with started the sacrament of holy communion using unfermented papaya juice.

I'm frankly not too sure what to think. If I had my way, we'd all partake of Communion one per year, just like Passover. Why not? Do you baptise more than once per life? But when the frequency of Communion is determined, often totally arbitrarily by a Session, then things get complex.

Much more complex than they need to. You don't have to worry about a near by store in PNG carrying wine if you only do it once per year, and you don't have to worry about alcoholics going nuts if you only have it once per year, etc...
 
Tim, I never thought of that before--places where there simply is no wine. Does anyone else know of any other cultures where this has happened, and what they did about it?
 
YXU said:
Back in China, the house church I used to attend, everyone drink from one cup of wine and one loaf of bread, now in Greenville, our church practises the same.
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I'm a germophobe...I almost gag from thinking about being last in line. :barfy:

I believe it is wrong to replace wine with other drinks, and we should change that practise and follow the Word of God.
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I'm struggling on this one. There are members of the body of Christ who are not yet old enough to legally drink alcohol, so it seems prudent to determine if indeed there are no biblical alternatives. I appreciate the questions posed by larryjf; they happen to be the questions I need answered definitively since I cannot legally drink alcohol and my church uses grape juice in communion. Oy vey :confused:
 
they happen to be the questions I need answered definitively since I cannot legally drink alcohol and my church uses grape juice in communion.
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You are mistaken. In California you can partake of the sacrament of holy communion as a Christian. And if you were a Jew, you could celebrate Passover. Your baptistic church chooses to withhold what they can legally do.
 
Oh... I didn't know that! So yes, I was wrong on that aspect. I'm not really sure why we don't use wine for communion, but I do know that we are certainly not against consuming alcohol. Most of the adults in the church, including the pastors, do consume it in moderation. I believe that the understanding is that grape juice is the equivalent of BRAND NEW wine. In other words, the alcohol isn't what makes the pressed fruit "wine" in the eyes of those in Jesus' day. Back then, they just didn't have any way to stop their pressed grapes from maturing. With that said, grape juice is preferred since there are people in the congregation who are recovering alcoholics, allergic to alcohol, etc. But again, that is just my understanding of why we use grape juice instead of its fermented elder.

Is this practice necessarily sinful?
 
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Hey, Andrew. I don't really know if it's sinful or not. It's certainly not optimum, though. Putting a fence around the Torah was something the Christ spoke much against. And that means making the Law more stringent than it was originally given.

In other words, the alcohol isn't what makes the pressed fruit "wine" in the eyes of those Jesus' day. Back then, they just didn't have any way to not let their pressed grapes mature.
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Yes, it was. They were as sophisticated as we are. They could boil grape juice, serve it fresh, etc...and stop the fermentation process whenever they wanted, just like we can today. They were just as smart as we are!

Your leadership chooses to be stricter than God. But given your age and type of church, you still have to submit to them with respect, and we all see you are doing that.
 
TimV said:
Hey, Andrew. I don't really know if it's sinful or not. It's certainly not optimum, though. Putting a fence around the Torah was something the Christ spoke much against. And that means making the Law more stringent than it was originally given.
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I certainly see how it's not optimum; if it's sinfulness is questionable then it's probably better to take the safe route. However, I don't see how the practice is more stringent than it was originally given. They aren't saying it is at all wrong to use wine for communion but rather grape juice is just as acceptable as the drink and less prone to problems. So, if anything, the practice (in our case) might be construed as less stringent, don't you think?

In other words, the alcohol isn't what makes the pressed fruit "wine" in the eyes of those Jesus' day. Back then, they just didn't have any way to not let their pressed grapes mature.
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Yes, it was. They were as sophisticated as we are. They could boil grape juice, serve it fresh, etc...and stop the fermentation process whenever they wanted, just like we can today. They were just as smart as we are!
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What? WHAT?! No, no, no...we are the most advanced, intelligent, and sophisticated society ever! They hardly knew the difference between toe cheese and humus while we have computers, MTV and Taco Bell... :smug:
But really--oh. My ignorance really stands out in this thread. My rushed reading of the Welch's info gave me the impression that they didn't know how to stop or prevent the fermentation of their juice. My bad.
 
They aren't saying it is at all wrong to use wine for communion but rather grape juice is just as acceptable as the drink and less prone to problems. So, if anything, the practice (in our case) might be construed as less stringent, don't you think?
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No my friend and fellow Californian. The Christ and His Disciples all drunk alcohol at the Last Supper. Only cultists and/or silly people would deny this. And they had people addicted to alcohol in those days too. The leadership of your church can't use the "prone to problems" argument. They are simply trying to be more holy than God. But I still advise you to submit to them for now.
 
TimV said:
The Christ and His Disciples all drunk alcohol at the Last Supper. Only cultists and/or silly people would deny this.
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Totally agreed.

And they had people addicted to alcohol in those days too.
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Good point.

The leadership of your church can't use the "prone to problems" argument.
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Remember, I only stated that this was a possibility; I don't know their rationale yet. However, since this is now pressing my conscious, I'm going to find out why we use juice.

They are simply trying to be more holy than God.
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Negative. My family settled on this church because of their fear of the Lord and His Word and the fact that He has the final say in all matters of life, the church, etc. I don't know why we practice communion the way we do, but to make this assertion is somewhat unfair, in my humble opinion.

Anyway, I truly appreciate your input in this discussion. It has been edifying, brother. :)
 
Prufrock said:
Tim, I never thought of that before--places where there simply is no wine. Does anyone else know of any other cultures where this has happened, and what they did about it?
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There is no grape juice in my location in Ethiopia. The church uses honey-water, the upscale beverage of choice in the culture.
 
Is that mead (fermented honey water), Mary? It was so sought after by the locals in our area of SA that they used to talk of the land flowing with goat milk and honey beer. When you mix honey with water at a 1:7 or so ratio, it starts fermenting that very hour. I make it for the kids occasionally, as it usually stops (the way I make it) at just a couple percent alcohol but it's really fuzzy add bubbly.
 
Was it in God's mind to have His son use wine for the express purpose as if it really meant something more than juice? So, if in Ethiopia, where they use honey-water, and they remember Christ's death until He comes again, in faith...they are not using wine so the hammer of God's justice is going to come down on them in the last days because "we aren't free from the law"? I mean God is going to be nuclear ticked because they did not use wine and by the expression of it being a violation of scripture, all those who do not use wine are thereby damned to hell although they took communion by faith and commemorated Christ's death together in the church?
 
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