Luther and the Jews

[RamistThomist]

They deny that God came in the flesh, which makes them Antichrist. Yes, some Muslims are "civically" better than ISIS. Several generals in Iran and Syria have killed thousands of Wahabbis and ISIS and humanity rejoices with them. They still deny that God came in the flesh.

Same applies to Jews.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Many Muslims though honor Jesus, at least in their own minds as a prophet, so they would be deluded and wrong, but not outright evil like isis is.

"Outright evil"?

Thomas Boston, Works, 1:463-464:

Here we may see the horrid and hateful evil of sin, which no other sacrifice could expiate but the blood of the Son of God. As the strength of a disease is known and seen by the quality and force of the medicine that is made use of to cure it, and the virtue of a commodity by the greatness of the price that is laid down to buy it, so is the matter here. The sufferings and death of Christ express the evil of sin far above the severest judgments that ever were inflicted upon any creature. The dying groans of our blessed Redeemer set forth the horrid nature of sin, and loudly proclaim how hateful it is in the eye of an infinitely pure and holy God. How much evil must there be in sin, that made Christ to groan and bleed to death to take it away!​

Let's not attempt to rehabilitate the evil of all sin into something less than it truly is.

 

[BG]

"Outright evil"?

Thomas Boston, Works, 1:463-464:

Here we may see the horrid and hateful evil of sin, which no other sacrifice could expiate but the blood of the Son of God. As the strength of a disease is known and seen by the quality and force of the medicine that is made use of to cure it, and the virtue of a commodity by the greatness of the price that is laid down to buy it, so is the matter here. The sufferings and death of Christ express the evil of sin far above the severest judgments that ever were inflicted upon any creature. The dying groans of our blessed Redeemer set forth the horrid nature of sin, and loudly proclaim how hateful it is in the eye of an infinitely pure and holy God. How much evil must there be in sin, that made Christ to groan and bleed to death to take it away!​

Let's not attempt to rehabilitate the evil of all sin into something less than it truly is.

I nominate that Thomas Boston quote for quote of the month

 

[Dachaser]

People either love the living and true God or hate him. There is no middle ground. The idea that there are very nice respectable people somewhere in the middle is a fallacy.

They are not nice , as all are sinners, but there are those such as Muslims who revere Jesus falsely as just a prophet, and those in Isis who behead Christians and also burn then alive.

 

[Dachaser]

"Outright evil"?

Thomas Boston, Works, 1:463-464:

Here we may see the horrid and hateful evil of sin, which no other sacrifice could expiate but the blood of the Son of God. As the strength of a disease is known and seen by the quality and force of the medicine that is made use of to cure it, and the virtue of a commodity by the greatness of the price that is laid down to buy it, so is the matter here. The sufferings and death of Christ express the evil of sin far above the severest judgments that ever were inflicted upon any creature. The dying groans of our blessed Redeemer set forth the horrid nature of sin, and loudly proclaim how hateful it is in the eye of an infinitely pure and holy God. How much evil must there be in sin, that made Christ to groan and bleed to death to take it away!​

Let's not attempt to rehabilitate the evil of all sin into something less than it truly is.

I agree with what is written here, but was just saying though that not all sins are equal in the sense of harm done to others. A deluded Muslim , lost in their sins, but wants to be at peace with Christians far different than someone in Isis who runs people over in delivery truck.

 

[RamistThomist]

I agree with what is written here, but was just saying though that not all sins are equal in the sense of harm done to others. A deluded Muslim , lost in their sins, but wants to be at peace with Christians far different than someone in Isis who runs people over in delivery truck.

Right, but your earlier posts seemed to posit the Jews (qua Jews) as a lesser class of sinners, perhaps deserving of our respect (and maybe tax dollars).

 

[Dachaser]

Right, but your earlier posts seemed to posit the Jews (qua Jews) as a lesser class of sinners, perhaps deserving of our respect (and maybe tax dollars).

I was just suggesting that among those who refuse Jesus as their Messiah, that there are varying degrees of behaviors among them, as there are sincere and deluded Jews and Muslims who still are lost, but are not nearly as crazy acting as Isis terrorists are in the name of their god.

 

[RamistThomist]

but are not nearly as crazy acting as Isis terrorists are in the name of their god.

Jews don't film beheading videos on youtube, to be sure, but if you read the Talmud they do not like Christians, to put it very mildly.

 

[BG]

They are not nice , as all are sinners, but there are those such as Muslims who revere Jesus falsely as just a prophet, and those in Isis who behead Christians and also burn then alive.

Radical Muslims want to kill us, moderate Muslims want radical Muslims to kill us.

 

[RamistThomist]

Radical Muslims want to kill us, moderate Muslims want radical Muslims to kill us.

Radical Sunnis are on the CIA's payroll.
Radical Shi'ites are on the FSB's payroll.

ISIS and Wahabbis are radical Sunnis.

 

[Dachaser]

Radical Muslims want to kill us, moderate Muslims want radical Muslims to kill us.

I would need to see proof on that part for the moderate Muslims though, as most of them seem to want so get along with us. Many American Muslims , at least the nominal ones, are more like people whop attend a church and go through motions, but not really saved.

 

[RamistThomist]

I would need to see proof on that part for the moderate Muslims though, as most of them seem to want so get along with us. Many American Muslims , at least the nominal ones, are more like people whop attend a church and go through motions, but not really saved.

A better way of phrasing it, and not using terms like "radical" and "moderate," is to see where Sunnis and Shi'ites fit in the current geopolitical scene. Western countries finance terror groups in Saudi Arabia and the Levant. They are predominantly Sunni.

Iranian Shi'ites, while perfectly willing to carry out terror attacks against America, would much rather kill CIA-sponsored Sunni terrorists.

 

[Dachaser]

So you would see the main distinction between them being that one would agree to finance and supply what is needed to kill, but the others do the actual killing?

 

[RamistThomist]

So you would see the main distinction between them being that one would agree to finance and supply what is needed to kill, but the others do the actual killing?

No. Shi'ites have Russian backing and ISIS/Sunnis have Israeli/Saudi/US backing.

Moderates are those who water down some of their teaching so they can better fit in with capitalist world.

 

[Haeralis]

This issue, in my experience, has always been a way that the adherents to the Church of Rome can deflect attention away from the theology of the Reformation by clinging to Luther's personal failings. Unlike Rome, however, no Protestant would claim that Luther or anyone else--however esteemed they are in Church history--is infallible and without sin.

Anti-Semitism is not an indispensable part of the Protestant tradition just because Luther said some bad things.

 

[BG]

Does anyone know if Luther ever said that we should kill the Jews simply because they are Jews.

 

[RamistThomist]

Does anyone know if Luther ever said that we should kill the Jews simply because they are Jews.

I'm almost 100% he didn't say that. Remember, the official definition of anti-semitism today, as given by the Anti-Defamation League, includes the New Testament.

 

[BG]

My question about Luther is really was he anti-semitic or did he simply tell the truth and we find that unpalatable?

 

[RamistThomist]

My question about Luther is really was he anti-semitic or did he simply tell the truth and we find that unpalatable?

He had the same views of Jews as everyone from Ireland to Moscow to the Middle East had of Jews. It's a fact of life. It's not pleasant, but it's no worse than the official Roman dogma, codified at the 4th Lateran Council, which mandated that Jews be put in ghettos in each city.