Male and Female Modesty

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Just an example of what I typically wear..

I hope this doesn't offend anyone (and if it does, moderators don't hesitate to delete this post) But i just wanted to give an exmample of the types of skirts/dresses I would pick out among all the "other" choices to wear.

skirt1.jpg


skirt2.jpg



dress2.jpg
 
Coram Deo;


Of course I did not think badly about them but I show other people snickering and whispering near by "Oh, he must like ___________" You can fill in the blanks.... So it does happen because of todays cultural climate... Personally I find that online shopping for the wife is better and she can be there to help pick out... But ServantofGod had a good point too... "What is the point in more clothing once married" :lol:


In the instance mentioned above, I honestly don't think it's "because of today's culture" I believe it was more because of their own hearts. You said yourself, "I did not think badly about them" yet you live within the same culture climate as those who did snicker.

I don't shop online but I have looked at various sites to see what's out there..
and many of the websites I have personally looked at are filled with models clad in these sexy outfits, so how can one keep their thoughts pure in such cases, even with their wives sitting next to them?

Especially given what you've been saying that many struggle with lust even looking at a womans hair or legs, why would one set themselves up to lust over such images within the confines of their own homes looking with and for their wives? How could one justify having the internet coming into their homes given the many advertisements of barely clad women or women with their hair showing if they know they struggle with this?
 
ServantofGod,

Notice that it says OUTER garment.. There were inner garments of the day...

When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea."

This is true. But remember that we aren't talking predominantly about nudity. You had mentioned before about not wearing shorts, or using public restrooms, shall we say, publicly?

Not sure about same sex situations but personally I will not use and have abstained from using public locker rooms because of modesty.. Additionally I will not use stand up wall unit in restrooms and always go to the closed door stalls to answer nature's call[reworded]...

But then there is the case of Noah and his son...
 
BertMulder;

:offtopic:

I was reading an article in a magazine the other day while at the hospital, and it was pretty much the same type thing as the Candian article; But it also spoke of kids getting cell phones when they are in kindergarden, and having internet, and cable TV in their bedrooms without parental supervision, and how parents allow their kids to dress in such clothes that by the time they hit their teenage years they have "Experienced most everything" and are now looking for a new thrill to fill the void, so some are asking for their parents permission to get married at 15 and 16 years of age for that new thrill...
 
Esteemed Bobbi,

As was my post mostly off-topic.

It is indeed terrible to see how sin begets sin...

And the great responsibility we have as parents...
 
Simply Nicki: Looks fairly classy.



I have a friend who ministers in Africa. Women often go largely topless among some tribes. His wife, however, was upbraided for her immodesty and dressing like a floozy. Her crime? She wore shorts whereas all good women covered their thighs.

This does illustrate that we see things through our cultural glasses. There are indeed universal standards but we often have a hard time acknowledging how much culture does determine what is sin and what is permissible.



Coram Deo: When shopping for lingerie it is less of a danger to go there in person then to google any lingerie related terms. Beware the NET!
 
Some questions for you:
What is modest for a man or a woman? Is it wearing certain things or acting a certain way? How are the modest folks to influence the less modest ones? Is there a sanction for the modesty impaired? Serious question.

Next thought: I attended Calvary Chapel for a while and they tended to go to the opposite extreme. I was somewhat bemused to see a young lady in a bikini lying on a lounge chair outside the sanctuary listening to the sermon. Their logic is that anyone is welcome. I do not agree with them but do not think it appropriate to be the clothing nazi. The immodestly dressed man or woman could be a new Christian and may need a friendly and gentle introduction to dressing and acting like a gentleman or a lady.

My question to you pastor is this: how can you welcome someone with less than modest dress and gently and lovingly teach them to value themselves more highly and dress appropriately? :2cents:

Michael is merely seeking a Pastorate calgal.

This is a "both-and" situation as JBaldwin noted.

Wisdom demands that we treat these situations according to the issues at hand. The fact of the matter is that modesty is somewhat culturally defined. I'm not giving license to nudity but there are cultures that missionaries have gone into and the first thing they do is cover up the women as if, all along, the women should have intuitively known that they were being immodest and tempting men who were not in the least tempted by their dress.

Even a modest full length dress would be too much even today for some Arabic men unless the entire body (including the eyes) is covered. Even the form of the woman is too much for some. Simply having a full length dress would be inadequate if it didn't completely obscure every feminine feature.

Making hard and fast rules to fit all cultures everywhere is naive and does not comport with the pursuit of wisdom.

The larger principle is the desire to build up the entire body and to consider the frame of our fellow brothers and sisters - their eyes being merely one thing among many that might cause temptation to sin. It's simply silly to make a law that covers every every culture on the planet or women would, indeed, be covered from head to toe and not merely be wearing a head covering but a full body covering. Nevertheless, if women ever found themselves in a culture that did find their form, in any part, alluring, the Law would not demand of them they cover up everything but love of brother and the willingness to restrict one's own liberty for another may be called for.

Thanks, brother. I was looking for someone who would give us permission to start a Christian nudist club. I think we should get back to nature :lol:

Yes, I vote for that.:lol:
 
I am trying to carefully guard my eyes here... I hope you won't think me facetious but I do find those legs very sexy... I am not sure of what man would not drool over those legs and tell they are very sexy and lustful... I could go into further detail but I would be afraid of mentally lusting...



I hope this doesn't offend anyone (and if it does, moderators don't hesitate to delete this post) But i just wanted to give an exmample of the types of skirts/dresses I would pick out among all the "other" choices to wear.

skirt1.jpg


skirt2.jpg



dress2.jpg
 
Pergy and BJclark,

I should have been more specific.. I agree totally with you that internet websites can be problematic and be worse then going to the store.. Years ago I knew of a website that sold lingerie without models or fake dummies... Just pictures of the clothing laid out on a back color..... I tried to find that website today and was not successful... But I have heard of others like it.... But again what ServantofGod said, Who needs more cloths when married. :cool:

Pergy,

My personal convictions are that culture plays no role in the modesty department and find it solely moral. Of course as you have known me over the years now I don't believe much into cultural aspects when it comes to scriptures.... :lol:




Coram Deo: When shopping for lingerie it is less of a danger to go there in person then to google any lingerie related terms. Beware the NET!
 
Michael,

Some questions for you:
What is modest for a man or a woman? Is it wearing certain things or acting a certain way? How are the modest folks to influence the less modest ones? Is there a sanction for the modesty impaired? Serious question.

Next thought: I attended Calvary Chapel for a while and they tended to go to the opposite extreme. I was somewhat bemused to see a young lady in a bikini lying on a lounge chair outside the sanctuary listening to the sermon. Their logic is that anyone is welcome. I do not agree with them but do not think it appropriate to be the clothing nazi. The immodestly dressed man or woman could be a new Christian and may need a friendly and gentle introduction to dressing and acting like a gentleman or a lady.

My question to you pastor is this: how can you welcome someone with less than modest dress and gently and lovingly teach them to value themselves more highly and dress appropriately? :2cents:

First, let me dissuade of the idea that I am a pastor. And, if I ever become one, much to the dismay of some I can also assure you that I am not infallible.:lol:

Second, how I would go about welcoming someone with less than modest dress and gently and lovingly teach them to value themselves more highly and dress appropriately would be done in the same way any one else that I know who espouses a strong view on modesty. My acceptance of them is not based upon their way of dressing. They have much more value as a Christian and a garden variety pagan, which ever they may be, than in the way they dress. So, I would never accept or not accept a person based on the way they are dressed. It is not a ground for so doing. Then I would in a way that might take years do as you indicate gently and lovingly teach them. I am a little iffy about what you mean by value themselves more highly, but that aside, it would be over time. You think I always held this view? I learned it, so can others.

As for your other questions, let me say wearing certain things and acting a certain way are a large element constituting modesty. I will be the first to say/admit/recognize that modest is first and foremost a heart issue for men and women. Nevertheless, I will put it this way. I used to be on the campus of a certain very well known Christian University (which will remain anonymous) on occasion with the standing rule, a rule stringently enforced, that girls had to wear long dresses. Now these dresses were, I think again by rule, were virtually down to the floor. Many, however, who wore these dress were not modest women. Why? Because they knew the art of sensuality. They oozed with sensuality in the way they wore their hair, the way they walked, the way they wore the slightest makeup, and the places in which their dresses fit most snugly. So, did the clothes alone make them modest. No. So, it is wearing and acting, but even more importantly it is the heart.

As for what is modest for men, I think several post here have documented that issue well. For women in our culture, it is a bit more of a challenge so I offer some suggestions that will be of benefit from my perspective.

They are seen in what is commonly called the “Modesty Test”. A simple Goggle search will find you plenty of them. However, in all honestly, I really am not that convinced that Christian women are prepared to subject themselves to it. The test itself will, therefore, be easy for most to dismiss, especially when it infringes upon the way they want to dress. (I guess I better make a disclaimer here: This post is not meant to be indicating you personally or any other person who may think so, since I have never met you or anyone else that might think this post is directed at them personally:))

A shirt that is so low that the breasts can be seen?
A tight or form-fitting shirt or dress?
A tank top or shirt that reveals a bra, or the place a bra would normally be if you were wearing one? (even the shoulder area)
A shirt that has writing or a logo across the chest and screams "look here!"?
Tight fitting pants that draw attention to your body?
Pants that are so low (or a shirt that is so high) that it shows your mid-drift or underwear?
Low-rise underwear so that your underwear aren't showing with your low-rise jeans? (don't get shorter underwear, get higher pants instead!)
A skirt that is high above the knees or reveals much of your legs?
A skirt or dress that has a large slit pointing like an arrow up the back or front, screaming "look up!"?
Pants or a skirt with a logo or writing across the buttocks?
Any other clothing item that particularly draws attention to your chest, buttocks or legs, or anything that draws attention to your body in any way? "Is it cold in here?" OK, girls...hate to bring this one up but when we get cold or nervous sometimes we can "get nippy"...if you catch my drift. When this happens, it is visible to others IF our bras are not thick enough. Keep in mind that when you're wearing thinner shirts, wear a thicker bra to avoid this problem.
If you answered yes to any of these questions, please choose something else to wear, for the sake of your Christian brothers, their wives, and their children.
Also, when you try on clothing, remember to sit and stand in different positions to test how modest the clothing really is, in all circumstances.
See these references for further study:
Women's Ministry: Revive Our Hearts with Nancy Leigh DeMoss-- Seeking Biblical Womanhood
girl talk
Modesty Survey :: Main
 
There are only three men who should ever see a woman naked: her husband, her doctor and, when the time comes, her undertaker.
 
Additionally I will not use stand up wall unit in restrooms and always go to the closed door stalls for bodily functions...

Your biblical convictions aside, you must have some serious body issues. This is a pretty bizarre statement, if you don't mind my saying so.
 
Love the Modesty Test!

Just got back from Wally World. Lots of young women under 16. Especially after this thread! I had to restrain from walking up and saying something to the moms. Very similar to the cover on the magazine above. Sheesh.

Parenting, the lost art.

There were also modestly dressed women there too! I had to also reframe from asking which church they went to. Big difference.
 
How So?

I find it immodest to use the wall units that have no stalls around them... I know many other man who have the same convictions.. I do not see why this is so "bizarre"....

Additionally I will not use stand up wall unit in restrooms and always go to the closed door stalls for bodily functions...

Your biblical convictions aside, you must have some serious body issues. This is a pretty bizarre statement, if you don't mind my saying so.
 
From a thoroughly secular (Canadian) magazine:

Zinio | Digital Magazines

Bert, when Macleans makes a statement like this, things have gone WAY too far already.

Love the Modesty Test!

Just got back from Wally World. Lots of young women under 16. Especially after this thread! I had to restrain from walking up and saying something to the moms. Very similar to the cover on the magazine above. Sheesh.

Parenting, the lost art.

There were also modestly dressed women there too! I had to also reframe from asking which church they went to. Big difference.

I find that many people consider themselves parents because they have kids - no further involvement required. It's like saying I'm a concert pianist by virtue of merely purchasing a grand piano. Sad.
 
How So?

I find it immodest to use the wall units that have no stalls around them... I know many other man who have the same convictions.. I do not see why this is so "bizarre"....

Additionally I will not use stand up wall unit in restrooms and always go to the closed door stalls for bodily functions...

Your biblical convictions aside, you must have some serious body issues. This is a pretty bizarre statement, if you don't mind my saying so.

Urinals are probably the most common porcelein products on the planet. They're not unusual, and there's nothing unusual about using them (unless Larry "Wide Stance" Craig is around!). They're perfectly acceptable. That's just the way it is in public restrooms.

At Dodger Stadium (and probably most other major-league ballparks, I imagine), they don't even bother with urinals. They just have long trench-like thingees the men use for answering nature's call...
 
I don't find them perfectly acceptable and will not use them....

And about major-league ballparks, remind never to go to them.. That is totally disgusting..... Glad I have never gone to a ballpark.....


How So?

I find it immodest to use the wall units that have no stalls around them... I know many other man who have the same convictions.. I do not see why this is so "bizarre"....

Your biblical convictions aside, you must have some serious body issues. This is a pretty bizarre statement, if you don't mind my saying so.

Urinals are probably the most common porcelein products on the planet. They're not unusual, and there's nothing unusual about using them (unless Larry "Wide Stance" Craig is around!). They're perfectly acceptable. That's just the way it is in public restrooms.

At Dodger Stadium (and probably most other major-league ballparks, I imagine), they don't even bother with urinals. They just have long trench-like thingees the men use for answering nature's call...
 
How So?

I find it immodest to use the wall units that have no stalls around them... I know many other man who have the same convictions.. I do not see why this is so "bizarre"....

Additionally I will not use stand up wall unit in restrooms and always go to the closed door stalls for bodily functions...

Your biblical convictions aside, you must have some serious body issues. This is a pretty bizarre statement, if you don't mind my saying so.

Michael, I think you are just starting to make this stuff up to ruffle my feathers.
 
Amazing Grace,

I am not making any of this up... My wife does concur on this with me... She was shocked that wall units even existed and was glad I did not use them....


How So?

I find it immodest to use the wall units that have no stalls around them... I know many other man who have the same convictions.. I do not see why this is so "bizarre"....

Your biblical convictions aside, you must have some serious body issues. This is a pretty bizarre statement, if you don't mind my saying so.

Michael, I think you are just starting to make this stuff up to ruffle my feathers.
 
By and By, Can we please leave the "Watering Closet" topic and get back to clothing... I do not like talking about such bodily functions... :lol:
 
Coram Deo:

Though I would love for you to see more of what role culture plays, I do agree with you that I prefer closed-box toilets instead of urinals. It is not a conviction but a strong preference.

In some parts of the world, people wonder if a different colored or foreign person is circumcised....and sometimes they peek. This gets old REAL quick.

Also, over here they circumcise boys at age 8-12 (and girls at birth). My son likes to go nude sometimes and play in water on the porch. The neighbor kids all play mude too sometimes. ..but we realized everyone was watching our 2 year old son. Why? It finally clicked, he was already circumsized and they were fascinated and disgusted and some of them thought of us as child abusers (cut your baby like that...you are horrible....you must wait until 8-12).... To circumsize a baby is cruel, but to circumsize a 10 year old and dress them up at the party afterward to greet guests all day is normal.



When it comes to modesty, many women in the Bible wore ear rings and even nose rings. Is this permissible to you? Or is any body decoration at all permissible? Fancy hairdos? Foundation? A spot of rouge to cover a blemish. Could surgery be done to fix a hairlip if insurance paid for it for your wife if you married a woman that had a cleft palate?

Are you against anything that artificially beautifies as a principle or merely against a few items that are in that category of things that enhance beauty artifically?
 
Incidentally, just another interesting cultural note about what is "scandalous", the Middle Eastern mind considers it "immodest" for men to bare their legs. "Girding oneself up" was appropriate only for battle but, otherwise, was completely undignified.

The running of the Father, incidentally, is one of the elements of the Parable of the Prodigal Son that would have shocked the hearers.

There's a reason why we don't find any serious scholarship weighing in on a "hard and fast" exegetical rule regarding what the Bible prescribes as a dress code for men and women as a didactic rule. There are clearly some cases where euphemisms are being applied inappropriatley. I've alluded to this implicitly but this is rather like any other opportunity that a man or woman has to sin in a particular area. Our hearts are idol factories but the solution to the "production line" is not found in an extended rule book of "thou shall nots".

The list above may be appropriate in certain circumstances but that list is hardly the end of wisdom in the matter. All that is needed is to change a few circumstances and a similar list can be produced forbidding dancing, drinking, smoking tobacco or a host of other things that have the appearance of godliness. It's not that they don't have an element of truth in them (hence they have the appearance of really aiming toward what God has for the end of the thing) but because they don't pursue it as wisdom they miss the aim of the whole thing completely. They not only fall short of the goal but they loudly proclaim their goal is the true aim of Biblical wisdom on that particular subject and then seek to bind men's consciences to it.
 
I just listened to the message and I am in 100% agrement with brother Martin on this one.

Because this thing has gone on for so long, I broke down and listened to it myself. I agree with him as well. In fact, his argument is precisely what I've been arguing here regarding Gospel motivation.
 
I just listened to the message and I am in 100% agrement with brother Martin on this one.

Because this thing has gone on for so long, I broke down and listened to it myself. I agree with him as well. In fact, his argument is precisely what I've been arguing here regarding Gospel motivation.

Listened to the message a couple of nights ago myself; Al Martin really instructs with a Pastor's heart. It would be so difficult to preach such a message wisely. I really liked his quotes from Mrs. Mohler. :judge:
 
It is an awful thought that a modestly dressed woman could be berated by a man for causing him to lust, talk about mote and beam.

While Women should dress modestly I have great sympathy with the posts here from women pointing out what a burden men often put on them. Surely our first reaction should not be to blame a women for having nice ankles but to mortify the sin in my own life that causes us to lust.

I also think that it is possible to recognise the beauty of a women in a pure way, we have got to be careful not to despise one of the gifts from God just because of our sinful nature.
 
Oh yeah I was wondering about that.. can a man admire the beauty of a woman's physical attractiveness without it being lustful? And likewise can a woman dress herself in an attractive way without tempting men to sin or being immodest?

Or is the presentation of outward beauty always sinful?
 
I have wondered about the Greek statues we see in museums. They seem to portray the human form to show its grace. The intent is not to incite lust but to show the symmetry and form of humans. I have never thought of those things as evil.

Also, what about personal training? Could a man help weight train a woman and could he complicate her on her body as she improved it or are all such things sinful - even if such a compliment was of a "way to go" sort, "you've reduced your waist and your shoulders are more toned now..good job."
 
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