Male and Female Modesty

Discussion in 'The Pilgrims Progress' started by Reformed Covenanter, Mar 20, 2008.

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  1. BJClark

    BJClark Puritan Board Doctor


    And this is what I address when I speak to women I know who dress immodestly, "what type of man are you wanting to attract?"

    Do you want to attract one who has no respect for you as a woman or as a person, one who if you 'don't look a certain way' he will soon lose interest?

    Or do you want to attract a man who respects you as a woman, and who see's past the outward appearance?

    Addressing these issues with women one can tell their heart, those who care about the type of man they attract tend to change the way they dress, those who don't...don't..

    I am not one to shy away from speaking up to women or young girls, even those I've never met..when in the store with my daughters shopping I have been known to make comments to other girls shopping about how certain clothes make them look and ask IF that is the message they desire to send..

    this is actually an area of contention with my step-daughter (who lives w/ her mother), she does not like me shopping for her, or shopping with me, because I won't buy certain fashions, that she likes because they are "provocative" and I believe they are inappropriate for 15 year old girls to wear, even in the privacy of their own homes. However, she prefers to shop w/ me over shopping w/ her dad, because I will pick out girly clothes but her dad on the other hand has told her either she gets what he's willing to buy her or he will purchase her men's t-shirts that she can wear instead, because they will cover even more.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2008
  2. Gloria

    Gloria Puritan Board Sophomore

    Very cute! :up::up: Those peep toes and stilletos could get you in trouble though. Even as a woman, I've always considered those "sexy" shoes. :p
  3. JBaldwin

    JBaldwin Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Not to mention the back trouble they cause!
  4. calgal

    calgal Puritan Board Graduate

    I love the skirts but am a bit to "balance impaired" for the shoes. Not to mention the weather making it downright hazardous to wear heels for the next month or so. :eek:
  5. Dieter Schneider

    Dieter Schneider Puritan Board Sophomore

    I never knew that there is so much mockery found among professing Christians.
  6. Simply_Nikki

    Simply_Nikki Puritan Board Junior

    I'm a short one 5''2 1/2", so I like wearing heels for height, but usually no more than 2 1/2". I was just illustrating the type of skirts and dresses I purchase, the shoes weren't to be included in the example. :D
  7. Simply_Nikki

    Simply_Nikki Puritan Board Junior

    Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. :um: ?
  8. calgal

    calgal Puritan Board Graduate

    Most of my skirts are that length but I have a couple really long skirts that are useful in winter (but are too warm). those were nice shoes though. :lol:
  9. bookslover

    bookslover Puritan Board Doctor

    I think the skirt in the middle is lovely. And the black dress on the bottom is good for going to work. Black works in any situation, I guess...
  10. Southern Presbyterian

    Southern Presbyterian Moderator Staff Member

    I finally had the opportunity to listen to Pastor Martin last evening. As always, he gave a biblically cogent argument in a loving and practical manner. in my opinion, he's one of, if not the best english speaking preacher of our day.
  11. Dieter Schneider

    Dieter Schneider Puritan Board Sophomore

    Why does Al Martin attract so much opposition? Is Scripture not on his side? I'd prefer argument to abuse.
  12. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member


    I'll answer this question. I'm actually surprised you asked it if you read the thread. I'm not aware of anyone who has actually listened to the audio actually criticized what Pastor Martin said. There was a discussion that ensued around what modesty is/isn't, who is responsible for it, what the motivation for it is, etc. I think you need to separate the two discussions because I've read nothing but praise for his actual Sunday School class.
  13. Amazing Grace

    Amazing Grace Puritan Board Junior

    It boils down to a strain of legalism Michael. One that Paul so clearly condemns over and over. Sanctification by works is as deadly, perhaps more than justification by works. You are trying to finish what God has started and will complete. You confess that you are justified by faith alone right Michael? Who has taught you or how have you concluded that you must now clean your life up and live holy by adhering to certain do's and don'ts . As you continue to do these do's and dont's you will become more and more like Christ. Hence, obedience is the key to godliness/Christlikeness. Paul is crystal clear in Galatians about this problem. He taught them that God was saving by "faith alone," without the law. In fact, as the law had no part of their salvation, it no longer had part in their perfection (ongoing sanctification). Soon after Paul left these Galatians, some came behind him and taught them to continue in the law and customs.

    Galatians 3:1-11, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

    Those living by the do's and don'ts found in Scripture have placed themselves under the curse of the law, the very thing Christ set us free from! So why do you so willingly place yourself under a system of rules? Why do you not rather live by the faith that saved us? My brother Michael, it can be for no other reason than having believed a lie; the lie of works-sanctification.

    "The just shall live by faith."
    , Righteous living (sanctification) is obtained the same way righteous standing (justification) is by faith alone. It is not "progressively" obtained that one grows into over 20, 30, or 40 years of obedience to peccadillo rules. Christ is our sanctification Whom we received by faith. Remember Paul saying "I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"?

    You claim this 'duty of man' is done out of love for God, and to grow holier, yet scripture speaks against the method you are striving to gain the goal by. It is by Grace through faith Michael. Not by any list that someone has concocted. The only thing that can bring us into good standing with God is the finished work of Christ. This is the salvation message we believe by faith. Having believed this, why do you now act as if you are under a performance system after becoming righteous by faith-alone? Will works help you to become righteous (saved) - no! So why do you act as if works will now help you become holier? I fought this disease for years under a works based sanctification preacher. I struggled daily to please an angry God. It made me almost go mad. Then I realized We cannot do anything to make God love us more, or do anything to 'work' ourselves back into God's good favor after we sin. Christ died because we COULDN"T do anything to earn His grace, before or after salvation. If we could be in 'good standing' with God by living right for any period of time then Christ would not have had to die. There is nothing we could do before being saved to become righteous as there is nothing we can do now to become more righteous. As believers, we are the righteousness of Christ already by faith! We live righteously by this same faith, not by righteous works. We are not perfected/completed by our good works, for we are already perfect/complete in Him.

    So, are we not to read God's word, pray, worship, give, serve, etc.? Of course we are. However, as we perform these activities we must realize that these activities will not make God love us any more, gain us any favor with God. Any moral self improvement plan is doomed to fail. Yes, we walk, yes we try to obey, yes we run, yes we labor, but we do all this by faith in Christ alone and His cross.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2008
  14. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    Amazing Grace,

    I have not said much in the past day or so in this thread.. I have even thought that it might not be worth anymore time since I believe we have exhausted everything and I have not been convinced that my list is unbiblical. But I thought I should answer your post with regards to sanctification...

    I have to completely disagree with you. I believe Sanctification is so important that without it no man, woman, or child will see God. You really need to read Holiness by J.C. Ryle... I can really do no justice to the work... It is one of the best books I have ever read....

    In light of the discussions related to sanctification, Ryle’s comments are relevant.

    “It is a subject which is peculiarly seasonable in the present day. Strange doctrines have risen up of late upon the whole subject of sanctification. Some appear to confound it with justification. Others fritter it away to nothing, under the pretence of zeal for free grace, and practically neglect it altogether. Others are so much afraid of ‘works’ being made a part of justification, that they can hardly find any place at all for ‘works’ in their religion."

    In another section, Ryle stressed the cost of living a holy life in the midst of an unholy world. He urged his readers to take up the fight and wage daily war against the world, the flesh, and the devil in whatever arenas these enemies were encountered.

    For Ryle, sanctification and growth in holiness are essential evidences that saving faith has happened and thereby serve to aid in producing assurance in the heart of believers. This assurance is something to be sought after and pursued heartily by the believer.

    Let me aleast outline his books....

    A) It is the invariable result of that vital union with Christ which true faith gives to a Christian. “The faith which has not a sanctifying influence on the character is no better than the faith of devils.”

    B) It is the outcome and inseparable consequence of regeneration. “Where there is no sanctification there is no regeneration.”

    C) It is the only certain evidence of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is essential to salvation. “The seal that the Spirit stamps on Christ’s people is sanctification.”

    D) It is the only sure mark of God’s election. “Elect men and women may be known and distinguished by holy lives.”

    E) It is a reality that will always be seen. A man’s “sanctification will be something felt and seen, though he himself may not understand it.”

    F) It is a reality for which every believer is responsible. “Believers are eminently and peculiarly responsible and under a special obligation to live holy lives.”

    G) It is a thing which admits of growth and degrees. “A man may climb from one step to another in holiness and be far more sanctified at one period of his life than another.”

    H) It depends greatly on a diligent use of scriptural means. “He will never bless the soul of that man who pretends to be so high and spiritual that he can get on without [the means of grace].”

    I) It is a thing which does not prevent a man having a great deal of inward spiritual conflict. “A true Christian is one who has not only peace of conscience, but war within.”

    J) It is a thing which cannot justify a man, and yet it pleases God. “The Bible distinctly teaches that the holy actions of a sanctified man, although imperfect, are pleasing in the sight of God.”

    K) It is a thing which will be found absolutely necessary as a witness to our character in the great Day of Judgment. “It will be utterly useless to plead that we believed in Christ unless our faith has had some sanctifying effect and been seen in our lives.”

    L) It is absolutely necessary in order to train and prepare us for heaven. “We must be saints before we die if we are to be saints afterwards in glory.”

    Ryle's Applications are the following

    1. Let anyone who calls himself a Christian yet has not concern for Sanctification realize his perilous position.
    2. Test your own salvation by your progress in sanctification.
    3. Begin sanctification with Christ.
    4. Work at sanctification continually.
    5. There is no shame in making much of holiness; holiness = happiness

    Again, Read the Book... I can not stress a more important book.... What I am and Ryle is espousing is not in any form legalism.. Legalism is believing one is justified by works and Pharisaicalism is adding to the law which is a subset of legalism... Remember, Justification is by Faith alone but without works Faith is Dead....


  15. Simply_Nikki

    Simply_Nikki Puritan Board Junior

    I guess that's why I was so confused. I didn't understand why Mr. Schneider would claim that any of us were being abusive towards each other or towards Al Martin. I listened to part of his message, and from what I heard, I seem to be in agreeance. All I've seen was civil (and at times, silly) debate and discussion as to the specifics of what is "modest".

    I'm also not too sure of the "mockey" found among the "professing christians" that was alluded to. But I'm sure all of us here on the PB have demonstrated our desire to please the Lord, and that we're not just mere "professors" of Christ but his followers.

  16. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    Michael, you say that you have not been convinced that your list is unBiblical; but I do wonder if you have any comment on the reversal that has been established with regard to a couple of texts/points that you made.

    For instance, Isaac and Rebekah makes a point opposite to the one you listed it for.
    Tamar and Judah shows that in patriarchal culture veiling your face was the very reverse of modesty.
    The priest unveiling a woman may show that she was ordinarily veiled: but it also showed that being unveiled is not necessarily/probably going to promote lust.

    Don't you feel that this warrants at least a cursory review of your hermeneutical method?
  17. moral necessity

    moral necessity Puritan Board Junior

    It should also be considered that many men remain confused over the line at which attraction terminates and lust begins. There is nothing wrong with our God-given attraction to women and their features. The very "wow" that it creates ought to cause us to praise God for his creating us to experience such. Often, in our striving to exterminate lust, we end up condemning the very Godly desires and attractions that the creator put in man to begin with, along with condemning and stifling the natural beauty and attractiveness that God intended for women to have towards men. So, we men must be careful to not condemn the true stirrings of our desires towards a woman's features when we see them. Yet, we are not to purposefully stir the pot, so to speak, in order to inflame these desires into an inordinate sort of tumult or storm, for that is what lust is. And, women should not be ashamed if their natural, God-given features cause and entice a man to a moving and a stirring of his desires towards her beauty. For, God has so gifted them to have the ability to do so, for that is how it was meant to be. Yet, they are not to focus on leading men to having those desires become inflamed, so as to become inordinate and tumultuous, and improper and unbecoming. All of us must be cautious in drawing the proper distinction between a stirring of our desires, and a tumultuous and inflamed stirring of the same, for error in one direction is just as corrupt as error in the other.

    So, blessings to you women for being beautiful and attractive, and blessings to God for creating men to gravitate towards such! And, what misery sin has created, in tending our desires to become inflamed and tumultuous beyond propriety! The solution is not found in diminishing and stifling the God-given desires into near non-existence, for this is the monk's solution. Rather, the solution is the gradual reign and dominion and sanctification of the Holy Spirit, which is brought about of his own doing. He will subdue our enemies; and he will place them under his feet. And, he will restrain the lust within us that we tend towards in all of our areas of desire.

  18. Vonnie Dee

    Vonnie Dee Puritan Board Freshman

    websites for coverings with pictures

    I'm curious, does anyone know of a good website that sells headcoverings for Christian women? A site with photos.[/QUOTE]

    I have ordered some of my coverings from these two web sites. I like to cover most of my hair. Most of these styles comply with Jewish standards of modesty. I usually wear snoods and soft hats. They are easy to wear, store, and the come in many colors. Also, they are not a distraction like those big "church hats" can be. :2cents:There is also a skirt site, if anyone is interested.

    Welcome to - Modest Clothing - Modest Jewish Clothing, Tznius

    Welcome to! The first Rabbinical approved clothing store on the web! Hats, Snoods, Caps, Head Scarves, Berets...Tznius Clothing for Women & Girls...Modest Jewish Clothing...Modest Israeli Clothing...Soft...Cotton...Full Coverage.

    Welcome to , Long Denim Skirts (having a sale right now)
  19. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    snoods? Ha, what's a snood...sounds funny, though.
  20. Vonnie Dee

    Vonnie Dee Puritan Board Freshman

    It does sound kind of funny. In fact, if you google it you will get replies for a game that I am not familiar with. However, if you go to the sites I have suggested you will see what they are.
  21. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    Pergy, a snood is a baglike covering (a woman's hair is held in the bag rather than her having to pin it up). You've seen netted snoods on women that dress in Civil War reenactments...there are some cloth type ones that were popular in the Tudor era. I've worn both. If you go to the sites Evon listed and click on the snoods, you'll see some there also.
  22. Stephen

    Stephen Puritan Board Junior

    Check your reformed confessions and Scripture, because justification and sanctification are both acts of God's free grace, but sanctification is an infusion of grace by the Spirit (WLC Question 77). Sanctification is God's grace at work in us but it also requires works from us. Sanctification is always progressive and if it is not, then it is an indication that one is not justified by faith. Luther refered to the works in sanctification as the fruits of righteousness. I think you mistated the point when you said that the law has no part in our sanctification. The law certainly is at work in our sanctification. The third use of the law is the means of holiness. We are delivered from the law as a covenant of works, so that we are neither justified or condemned, but we are called to walk in holiness and continually put to death the deeds of the body. You have to make a clear distinction between justification and sanctification.
  23. FenderPriest

    FenderPriest Puritan Board Junior

    Just side note: Reading over this post, and considering how my own wife dresses, I just want to offer a public praise to her that she has always dressed modestly. I do not agree with Coram Deo's presentation of biblical modesty. However, as far as Martin's sermon, and the general consensuses is of biblical female modesty, my wife has always been exemplary in her dress. She will even ask me to critique her new cloths as to whether they are modest or not - not merely relying upon her, or her friend's assessment. I know how rare this is among women, even Christian women today. How great God has been to bless me with such a wife! I am entirely undeserving, but my wife has been such a gracious gift from our Father.
  24. Stephen

    Stephen Puritan Board Junior

    Thanks, Michael for your discussion on this point. I agree with you on this issue of sanctification. The Scriptures make it clear that we are to walk in holiness. Paul's epistles are all exhortations to walk in a manner worthy of our calling. J.C Ryle's book on Holiness is the classic work on sanctification and is one that I would commend. I think your point was misunderstood. We do not add a list of man made rules and regulations, but we are to live by the law of God. If we concentrated on reading the law and meditating on it as the Psalmist says, we would know how to live and walk in holiness.
  25. Stephen

    Stephen Puritan Board Junior

    :amen: Thanks, brother. Your wife and my wife must have the same fashion designer :) He who finds a wife finds a good thing and receives blessing from the LORD. If a woman is godly and seeks to honor Christ, she will know how to dress and will always want to please her husband. If you look at the styles of dress today, both for men and women, it is autrocious. The styles were more modest even ten or fifteen years ago, but as we become a more secularized culture, the styles will become less modest.
  26. Amazing Grace

    Amazing Grace Puritan Board Junior

    Stephen, I have checked them over and over and over again. I am very leary of what is meant by infusion, but that is a whole other topic. Santification is both positional and progressive. Yet both are in Christ alone by grace through faith, not by works obedience as a believers focus. I have heard all the cliche sayings as you have mentioned above and have certainly concluded it is wanting. Anyway you slice it, works sanctification is an impossibility. What does walking in holiness mean to you? Scripture says we walk by faith. Walk in this newness of life procured by Christ. Our life is not supposed to be some rollercaoster ride of failure and victory based upon sinning vs not sinning every day or every hour. It is finished Christ said. And that means more than justification. We have been taught that we become saved by faith in the gospel, but now that we are saved we need to perform well to walk righteously. If at any time we fail to perform well we need to get back on track of good performance in order to get on God's good side again. If we really screw up then it may take several days (or even weeks) of good performance before we 'feel' that God is accepting us again. If we are able to sustain a decent run of good behavior we believe that God is beginning to smile on us again thereby increasing our confidence in approaching and sharing Him. this 'good performance' is a works-based righteousness no different than living under the law. Let me repeat, good performance under the law is no different than 'good performance' under grace. 'Good performance' will not bring us into good standing with God. Good works could not help 1% before salvation and cannot help 1% after salvation. In God's view, a 'successful' five hour period or a five year flawless track record makes no difference to God in relation to our righteousness and acceptability.

    Again, I only ask that you interact with Paul on this point:

    Galatians 2:21-3:3, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain… This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

    There is no other way to understand this verse, becasue it is exactly the same in the original. The Spirit is what saves, then why go back to the flesh/Law/obedience for sanctification? How are we to walk in Christ? The same way we were saved, by faith in the gospel. We are to walk in the faith that God loves us and that we can do nothing to make Him love us more. He proved His love for us by offering Himself in our stead on the cross. We cannot earn His love by being a better Christian, reading our Bibles more, fasting more, etc., for we are fully loved forever.

    Stephen? What works are required of us that you speak of? What do's and dont's are we required to follow that Paul condemns in Col 2? Again I am not speaking of obvious commands of God. But a believer does not need the 10 words in stone constantly presented to him in order for him to not murder or covet. Michael and Bert Mulder have even gone beyond this and followed the traditions of the mishna and have lists of things that only burden others to even read about. This is my biggest gripe with this flavor of legalism. Do you find a roman catholic who prays the rosary foolish? Even when she says she is doing it to please God? Do you find an Amish person a false witness when they scream about not having their picture taken? Or what about the catholic who goes to novena? Is he not praying? Or the one who does not eat meat on wednesdays or fridays during lent? They all say they are doing it to please God, yet you call them heretics, believing a lie. Well I do not care if Ryle, WLC, Calvin, Michael, You, or anyone says that a list of required works has a part in our sanctification, it is against the Gospel. Especially when the list is a bunch of peccadillo things that do not matter at all.
  27. Amazing Grace

    Amazing Grace Puritan Board Junior

    The actual book that got me out of the bondage of moralism, aesceticism, neonomianism propounded by you and Michael and many many others in history is The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification by Walter Marshall.

    Book Review: The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification, by Walter Marshall
    (Reviewed by's Nathan Pitchford)

    Synopsis: Walter Marshall’s classic seventeenth-century treatment of the doctrine of sanctification lays out in clear and simple terms the means by which a Christian might be enabled to grow in holiness. His basic proposition may seem foreign to many modern believers, who are desperately striving to produce in themselves the fruits of obedience, and so guarantee God’s continuing favor. But it is as scriptural as it is refreshing: sanctification, just like justification, is God’s free gift of grace, and can be apprehended only through the faith which looks to Christ and his perfect work.

    Many books have been written on sanctification and holiness, some helpful and some not. But of all the works that attempt to define what holiness is, or teach a Christian what he ought to do, very few devote much space to the question of means – how can I do what I know I should, when my natural inclinations seem so opposed to all that is right? Apart from an understanding of the means by which a Christian may become progressively more holy, a mere description of the nature of holiness will be of no practical help.

    That is why Marshall’s work is so vital. Ever since Adam’s fall, mankind has been powerless to perform that which is good. The problem is not merely one of education – we certainly do need to be taught what is good, but we also must be enabled to do it. And, while God tells us what to do in his law, he enables us to do it only through the gospel.

    Why is this? Because the gospel unites us by faith to the only One who can truly perform acceptable acts of righteousness; and who can, moreover, produce those same acts in us, from the inside out. The message of the gospel is that we do not become holy by doing, but by not doing – we do not work so that we may become holy, but we become holy by faith, with the result that we begin to work naturally, from our heart. Sadly, many who recognize this truth in the matter of justification forget it when it comes to sanctification. But we are no more able for the latter than we are for the former, apart from the work of Christ in us.

    It may be objected that such a teaching must result in license and lawlessness. But as Marshall demonstrates, it is actually the teaching of a works-based sanctification that issues in lawlessness, for it throws the pursuit of holiness on the abilities of the flesh, which can do nothing according to God’s law. The pursuit of sanctification by the gospel-truth of faith in Christ is the only means that can ever be successful.

    This truth, when apprehended, produces some marvelous results: first, it gives all glory to God alone, for the whole process of salvation – without him, none of it is possible. Second, it serves to alleviate the tormented conscience, and makes the yoke of Christ’s law easy and refreshing indeed – for it turns our eyes to him, when before they were fixed on the impossible weight of the law hanging over our weak resolve. And finally, it actually produces true and acceptable holiness, where years of ardent efforts had left only failure and defeat – for it is only through gospel faith that Christ’s power flows through us because of our vital union with him.

    For all these reasons, John Murray speaks of The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification as the most important book on sanctification that has ever written. He may well be right.

    Your system is exactly like the rcc, the Gospel brings the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ, but is replaced by the Law which sets down directives for Christian life and warns and threatens the Christian the remaining time on earth. Law, and not the Gospel, becomes God's last and real word for the believer. What a shame. A believrs life deteriorates into an implicit and eventually coarse legalism and moralism. Jesus faced this understanding of an ethically determined concept of sanctification among the Pharisees. Unbelievers can do these works just as good if not better than believers' ie not wearing shorts, not watching drama, caring for the poor, following the 10 commandments, The works of sanctification are, strictly speaking, only those which Christians can do, ie pray, attend the supper, worship the one true God, and lastly, FAITH/ believing in Him alone. This is all I set out to do for my Christian walk. What a relief it has been to rid myself of the rabid moralism taught in my life. God allows us Christians to be plagued by sin and a sense of moral inadequacy to force us to see the impossibility of a self-generated holiness. Our only hope is to look to Christ in whom alone we have a perfect and complete sanctification. "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30).

    So when I see "Be ye holy becasue I am Holy" glaring me in the face, I do nto turn to works, or lists, or any type of obedience to Law. I only run to thew cross and plead my case. And there and only there can a believer find his sanctification.
  28. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Break! Break!

    Stephen and Amazing Grace,

    I'm splitting this off. I don't like where this discussion has gone and hate that the nature of sanctification is being associated with particular scruples concerning modesty here. Do not debate the nature of sanctification any more in this thread. Wait for my thread that I'm constructing. I'll link to it once I've said my peace.

    OK, I'm done. Here is the thread:
  29. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    Listened to the lesson, and I agree with Al Marin's conclusions at least in the context of the West and appropriate dress for church.

    I was just thinking the other day about how many take "not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire" to apply specifically to the 1st C. church. If that is the case, then doesn't the pastor have to apply this passage to our contemporary church? Why then do so many pastors refuse to speak on what is and isn't modest and decent today?
  30. Dieter Schneider

    Dieter Schneider Puritan Board Sophomore

    I have listened to A Martin's message and nothing (incl. silly pictures or comments) ought to detract from the seriousness of what has been said. Sadly, many Western Christians ladies do not seem to share his view, judging by what they wear.

    Perhaps someone needs to put me right on the issue of sanctified humor. :think:
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