[quote:b41c00ee26][i:b41c00ee26]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:b41c00ee26]
Yeah, Paul, I think I understand where you're coming from a bit more now. Granted, at the time the ecumenical councils met, the doctrines stated in the creeds were universally agreed upon - people like Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals have simply denied them after the fact. So it seems to me that you're saying that if the entire external true church can universally agree on something at a certain time, it is to be considered a requirement for orthodoxy from that point forward, even if other so-called Christians deny it after that.
Under that definition, if one considers Rome to have been a false church during the Reformation, the entire external true church (i.e. all Reformed/Protestant Christians, since the two terms were synonymous for a short time during that period) [i:b41c00ee26]would have[/i:b41c00ee26] actually agreed on, say, the doctrines of grace. So therefore, even though they were denied by true churches after that, they should be considered a binding part of orthodoxy.
So I guess you were right in saying that the whole question of our perspective of "orthodoxy" is directly correspondent to our view of whether or not we consider Rome to have been a true church during the Reformation. So maybe we should conclude that this issue has been sufficiently discussed, and move on to a continual discussion of Rome as a true church during the Reformation, in the existing thread for that topic.
In Christ, [/quote:b41c00ee26]
Some considerations for your second paragraph: the ONLY confession/creed that I can think of that most everybody would agree upon is the 'Augsburg Confession'. So, that would be the only one that is [i:b41c00ee26]solemnly determined as true doctrine[/i:b41c00ee26] by the church. Representatives from the whole Church do not need to be present, they just need to be agreed upon (as in the case of some ecumenical councils).
I don't think that an [i:b41c00ee26]idea[/i:b41c00ee26] of 'doctrines of grace' would qualify though. There needs to be something tangible (i.e. council or creed).
Remember this is only IF Rome was not a true church during that time. Also, you must be able to prove that the Orthodox were not a true church. I think they both were true: just a divided Kingdom, like we have today (denominationalism).
Paul
[Edited on 6-10-2004 by rembrandt]