Marriage Prenup

TheBoringBaptist

TheBoringBaptist

Puritan Board Freshman
Moderators, if this is the wrong thread to post this under, please move it to the right category. Please and thank you.

The question: As a young man(25) I want to know what you guys think about marriage prenups. Are they unbiblical and unloving? Or are prenups left to the discretion of the betrothed couple? If you're wondering why I've brought this up, it's because I watched some short video by Allie Beth Stuckey on it.

Here it is:
 
In ordinary circumstances Christians should not get prenups. There might be some exceptions. I think this has actually been discussed here before.
 
It’s wise for two individuals who have been separated from their spouses by the cold hand of death to have an agreement concerning finances especially if there is children involved. Perhaps a verbal agreement with the children but not necessarily a legal contract.
For young people married for the first time, no.
 
Ploutos said:
It wasn't a criticism, and I might be wrong. I have a distinct memory of having seen such a thread on here in recent years, but I can't find it.
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The secret is to use the full word for prenup, 'prenuptial.' With or without the word 'agreement.'

The first thread I came to was from 2006. Heads might have even been clearer back then, before our country went crazy.
 
Unfortunately, I can see why he is asking the question. The social restraints, and morals, for better or worse, in a previous era to divorce are no longer there. In fact, the opposite is now true and our generation is soaked in it.
 
arapahoepark said:
Unfortunately, I can see why he is asking the question. The social restraints, and morals, for better or worse, in a previous era to divorce are no longer there. In fact, the opposite is now true and our generation is soaked in it.
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But the standard for Christians is exactly the same.
 
Gesetveemet said:
Perhaps a verbal agreement with the children but not necessarily a legal contract.
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If a verbal agreement is necessary, a legal contract is certainly necessary. This is probably not a prenup, but rather a will and a living trust to avoid probate costs. You don't want your kids fighting over your inheritance after you die, or being charged excessive probate fees on your estate.
 
arapahoepark said:
Unfortunately, I can see why he is asking the question. The social restraints, and morals, for better or worse, in a previous era to divorce are no longer there. In fact, the opposite is now true and our generation is soaked in it.
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I don't think this point can be overstated. In some age groups, female infidelity has surpassed the men and those numbers, presumably, are from verified cases....the numbers are likely higher. I can see why someone would consider this avenue.
 
pianoviolin said:
If a verbal agreement is necessary, a legal contract is certainly necessary. This is probably not a prenup, but rather a will and a living trust to avoid probate costs. You don't want your kids fighting over your inheritance after you die, or being charged excessive probate fees on your estate.
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If you have two sensible adults (widow and widower) who have loving Christian children that don’t fight with their siblings I think a verbal agreement is sufficient. Handshakes and a promise went a long way before people needed lawyers. I respect your opinion though and no it’s not a prenup.

Concerning prenup between a new bride and a new groom I believe it’s not Gods way. When the vows are said to love, honor, and obey they are said before the Lord.

Topical encyclopedia
Marriage, within the biblical context, is fundamentally understood as a covenantal relationship. This concept is deeply rooted in the Scriptures, where marriage is portrayed not merely as a social contract but as a sacred bond instituted by God. The covenantal nature of marriage is evident from the earliest chapters of the Bible and is consistently affirmed throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

Hope you had/having a blessed Lord’s day.
 
Gesetveemet said:
Perhaps a verbal agreement with the children
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Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

As far as

Gesetveemet said:
For young people married for the first time, no.
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If folks have roughly equal exposure, that's a good idea. If there is significant disparity, I'd say a properly drafted prenup with triggers (length of marriage, infidelity, children) built in to alter the terms would be good protection.
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Ploutos said:
But the standard for Christians is exactly the same.
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Just because someone represents that they are a Christian, it doesn't mean that they are. And even if they are, it doesn't mean that they aren't sinners.
 
Ed Walsh said:
The secret is to use the full word for prenup, 'prenuptial.' With or without the word 'agreement.'
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OK, did some digging. Black's Law Dictionary, Revised Fourth Edition, does not have Prenup, Prenuptual, or prenuptual agreement in any form. It does have Antenuptial contract.

Ballentines Law Dictionary Third Edition has entries for prenuptial - See antenuptial; premarital and for prenuptial agreement - see antenuptial contract.

So the proper terminology is antenuptial contract, not prenuptual or prenuptial agreement. Or at least that was the case close to a half century ago.
 
Edward said:
Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

As far as


If folks have roughly equal exposure, that's a good idea. If there is significant disparity, I'd say a properly drafted prenup with triggers (length of marriage, infidelity, children) built in to alter the terms would be good protection.
Post automatically merged:


Just because someone represents that they are a Christian, it doesn't mean that they are. And even if they are, it doesn't mean that they aren't sinners.
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Sure, but what does it say about someone's assumptions, or the legwork they've done, going into marriage? I've known people who believe, as part of their worldview, that divorce is just a likelihood that's inevitable for some. I don't see much difference between that mindset and the mindset that asks for a prenuptial agreement.

I agree that there might be some exceptional circumstances, but in general I think that one needs to do their homework, part of which should include a great deal of prayer, and then have some trust in the Lord to guide the outcome.
 
Ploutos said:
Sure, but what does it say about someone's assumptions, or the legwork they've done, going into marriage? I've known people who believe, as part of their worldview, that divorce is just a likelihood that's inevitable for some. I don't see much difference between that mindset and the mindset that asks for a prenuptial agreement.

I agree that there might be some exceptional circumstances, but in general I think that one needs to do their homework, part of which should include a great deal of prayer, and then have some trust in the Lord to guide the outcome.
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We believe God is sovereign, yet we take all kinds of precautions in things without questioning his sovereignty. Some things may be a point of wisdom. If either spouse is coming into the marriage extremely wealthy, and the other is not; there is nothing wrong with a prenup in which would make sure the other is taken care of, but would not include the pre-wealthy spouse losing half or more of their wealth in a divorce. We live in a society where either spouse can decide they want to divorce at any time. And in those cases, they should only be entitled to what was garnished together.
 
davejonescue said:
We believe God is sovereign, yet we take all kinds of precautions in things without questioning his sovereignty. Some things may be a point of wisdom. If either spouse is coming into the marriage extremely wealthy, and the other is not; there is nothing wrong with a prenup in which would make sure the other is taken care of, but would not include the pre-wealthy spouse losing half or more of their wealth in a divorce. We live in a society where either spouse can decide they want to divorce at any time. And in those cases, they should only be entitled to what was garnished together.
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That is not an appropriate mentality with which to come into marriage. Both parties should come into marriage prepared to give their all, not prepared to prevent the other from getting half of it if things go south. You're absolutely right that God's sovereignty is not incompatible with all kinds of precautionary measures, but those kinds of precautionary measures need to be biblically defensible. We don't live and sleep with our romantic partners before marriage, even though our society tells us that's a great way to avoid all kinds of unpleasant surprises down the road. For the same reason, we generally shouldn't do prenuptials, though as I said before, there are exceptional circumstances, so please don't conflate the norm with the exceptional.
 
Sadly, Christians get divorced at almost the same rate as the worldlings. In the great preponderance of the time, it’s initiated by the woman who just changes her mind. No fault divorce is of the devil. But no fault divorce in a context in which the courts allow someone to just decide they don’t wanna be in the marriage anymore and then essentially rob the innocent party of 50% of their stuff, sometimes more, that’s injustice upon wickedness.

It bothers me greatly that our legal system tolerates no fault divorce and that it so consistently awards things to the one who initiated it.

The standard reflex to oppose prenuptial agreements by Bible-believing Christians is built upon gloriously sublime premises… but sadly plays right into the hands of the person who later changes their mind, and statistically… That’s typically the woman.

I think for far too long we’ve been thinking about prenups wrongly. I think a prenup provides us a wonderful opportunity to use the world’s system to functionally re-create some semblance of normalcy. I would suggest that a prenup could essentially be written so as to penalize someone who just walks away because they aren’t feeling it any more. Thereby disincentivizing a no fault divorce situation.

The law of the land will not help you. The law will penalize the innocent party, especially if it’s the man, and will award half your stuff to the offending party (that is, the person who is decided to just walk away under the rules of a no fault divorce) Maybe you feel like that’s a burden that you should have to to bear. I don’t. And I would love to use a legally accepted tool to re-create the conditions of an earlier time in which deciding to walk away and abandoning your vows doesn’t result in you getting half of someone’s stuff, and in fact might even cost you for your act of treachery! Now THAT sounds like we’re using legal means to enforce the sanctity of marriage.
 
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SolaScriptura said:
Sadly, Christians get divorced at almost the same rate as the worldlings. In the great preponderance of the time, it’s initiated by the woman who just changes her mind. No fault divorce is of the devil. But no fault divorce in a context in which the courts allow someone to just decide they don’t wanna be in the marriage anymore and then essentially rob the innocent party of 50% of their stuff, sometimes more, that’s injustice upon wickedness.

It bothers me greatly that our legal system tolerates no fault divorce and that it so consistently awards things to the one who initiated it.

The standard reflex to oppose prenuptial agreements by Bible-believing Christians is built upon gloriously sublime premises… but sadly plays right into the hands of the person who later changes their mind, and statistically… That’s typically the woman.

I think for far too long we’ve been thinking about prenups wrongly. I think a prenup provides us a wonderful opportunity to use the world’s system to functionally re-create some semblance of normalcy. I would suggest that a prenup could essentially be written so as to penalize someone who just walks away because they aren’t feeling it any more. Thereby disincentivizing a no fault divorce situation.

The law of the land will not help you. The law will penalize the innocent party, especially if it’s the man, and will award half your stuff to the offending party (that is, the person who is decided to just walk away under the rules of a no fault divorce) Maybe you feel like that’s a burden that you should have to to bear. I don’t. And I would love to use a legally accepted tool to re-create the conditions of an earlier time in which deciding to walk away and abandoning your vows doesn’t result in you getting half of someone’s stuff, and in fact might even cost you for your act of treachery! Now THAT sounds like we’re using legal means to enforce the sanctity of marriage.
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May come back for a fuller response later, because I have rather feelings on this, but for now, just want to note that the stats that say that Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians use an overly broad definition of who counts as a Christian. If you limit it to Christians who are actually active in a gospel-preaching church, the numbers aren't NEARLY as bad.
 
My wife and I had a conversation about this not long ago, particularly if she were to pass before me would I remarry?

I doubt I would, but who can know?

I do know one thing for sure: if I was unsure of a woman's Christian convictions such that a prenup even suggests itself in my mind, then I will not bend the knee and propose at all.
 
No Other Name said:
My wife and I had a conversation about this not long ago, particularly if she were to pass before me would I remarry?

I doubt I would, but who can know?

I do know one thing for sure: if I was unsure of a woman's Christian convictions such that a prenup even suggests itself in my mind, then I will not bend the knee and propose at all.
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Sadly, you never can tell.
 
mpinckard said:
May come back for a fuller response later, because I have rather feelings on this, but for now, just want to note that the stats that say that Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians use an overly broad definition of who counts as a Christian. If you limit it to Christians who are actually active in a gospel-preaching church, the numbers aren't NEARLY as bad.
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Ah, the old "we'll deny the stats by telling ourselves that the great preponderance of those in our demographic really aren't" routine.

Sorry, friend, this isn't just statistical for me. Just Saturday (two days ago) I had to rebuke a woman for informing me that she has secured a divorce lawyer... and this after months of talking with myself and elders in which not a single legitimate reason for divorce was presented... And ours is a very conservative PCA church. The stories I could recount are legion.

Some people think they can just tell who is or isn't likely to divorce... and that we can just steer clear of them on the front end. How naive. Sure, there are manifestly bad people who can be identified early on. But much harder to predict is that person 5 years in or 20 years in and their give a darn is just busted. But if they choose to break covenant and walk away, your elders won't save you, your confession of faith won't help you... the Courts will take half or more of your stuff and give it to the one who is breaking covenant and you'll be compelled with force by the state to enrich the faithless wretch who abandoned their covenant.

***
Some of you simply lack creativity. You want to honor marriage (a good thing). But like a tick some people just keep coming back to "prenups make divorce easy" "prenups treat divorce as a foregone conclusion" ... and I'm saying, sure they can facilitate divorce culture... but snap out of it: Prenups may just possibly be the last best legal protection a marriage has (!) precisely because if carefully written it discourages walking away, and it can actually be written so as to penalize the person who breaks their vows, which is something the Courts simply will not do.
 
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In short, the more wealth, the more legal preparations. In the 20 years that I have been going to my church, there have been two* divorces. That makes them rare, but they do happen.

Second marriages are where things can get bad also. I’ve seen up close where an octogenarian family member married late in life and his children and grandchildren lost out in a large way to a stepmother they knew for only a few years. All of that needs to be ironed out completely before marriage. Call it an estate plan or a pre-nap agreement. Whatever makes you feel better.

*correction, three
 
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ZackF said:
In short, the more wealth, the more legal preparations. In the 20 years that I have been going to my church, there have been two divorces. That makes them rare, but they do happen.

Second marriages are where things can get bad also. I’ve seen up close where an octogenarian family member married late in life and his children and grandchildren lost out in a large way to a stepmother they knew for only a few years. All of that needs to be ironed out completely before marriage. Call it an estate plan or a pre-nap agreement. Whatever makes you feel better.
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In those situations, how would you handle that sort of pre-marital planning? Or, perhaps, when you have seen this done well, what did that look like?
 
In the case of a second marriage, between a widow and widower, it’s going to vary, depending on the age of the children. I’m not an attorney. I’m certainly no financial guru. Whether or not the size of the estates coming into the marriage are lopsided is secondary to the peace that an estate plan/prenup can give both spouses and adult children. If the engagement blows up when preparing such a plan, that’s a good sign to people should not be marrying.
 
ZackF said:
In the case of a second marriage, between a widow and widower, it’s going to vary, depending on the age of the children. I’m not an attorney. I’m certainly no financial guru. Whether or not the size of the estates coming into the marriage are lopsided is secondary to the peace that an estate plan/prenup can give both spouses and adult children. If the engagement blows up when preparing such a plan, that’s a good sign to people should not be marrying.
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Do you think pre-marital agreements (whatever one wants to call them) are advisable in more ordinary situations as well?
 
SolaScriptura said:
Sadly, Christians get divorced at almost the same rate as the worldlings. In the great preponderance of the time, it’s initiated by the woman who just changes her mind. No fault divorce is of the devil. But no fault divorce in a context in which the courts allow someone to just decide they don’t wanna be in the marriage anymore and then essentially rob the innocent party of 50% of their stuff, sometimes more, that’s injustice upon wickedness.

It bothers me greatly that our legal system tolerates no fault divorce and that it so consistently awards things to the one who initiated it.

The standard reflex to oppose prenuptial agreements by Bible-believing Christians is built upon gloriously sublime premises… but sadly plays right into the hands of the person who later changes their mind, and statistically… That’s typically the woman.

I think for far too long we’ve been thinking about prenups wrongly. I think a prenup provides us a wonderful opportunity to use the world’s system to functionally re-create some semblance of normalcy. I would suggest that a prenup could essentially be written so as to penalize someone who just walks away because they aren’t feeling it any more. Thereby disincentivizing a no fault divorce situation.

The law of the land will not help you. The law will penalize the innocent party, especially if it’s the man, and will award half your stuff to the offending party (that is, the person who is decided to just walk away under the rules of a no fault divorce) Maybe you feel like that’s a burden that you should have to to bear. I don’t. And I would love to use a legally accepted tool to re-create the conditions of an earlier time in which deciding to walk away and abandoning your vows doesn’t result in you getting half of someone’s stuff, and in fact might even cost you for your act of treachery! Now THAT sounds like we’re using legal means to enforce the sanctity of marriage.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't this be an example of being innocent as doves and wise as serpents? Or maybe I'm thinking of the Parable of the Dishonest Manager?
 
Ploutos said:
Sure, but what does it say about someone's assumptions, or the legwork they've done, going into marriage?
Click to expand...
Two points as to that.

1) Young people in "love" or more likely lust, are unlikely to properly vet their mate.
2) How many folks do you know that have gotten a full background check on their intended?
 
Ploutos said:
Do you think pre-marital agreements (whatever one wants to call them) are advisable in more ordinary situations as well?
Click to expand...
Increasingly I lean in the prenup direction. I have two daughters who, Lord willing, will be married someday.
 
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