Matt. 16:17-19, the Pope

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rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
I have been looking at this passage a while now, and I have concluded that Peter was the first Pope. But he was the only Pope. Their was no personal succession except that given to the Church at large.

I say this because it does appear that the keys were given [i:4ffd6130f7]especially[/i:4ffd6130f7] to him. He was the first to open the gospel of the NT kingdom on Pentecost etc..
(note: I only used the term "Pope" because it was convienient and throws alot of traditional protestant interpretation off. I believe that every other "Pope" is an antichrist. And that ANY Pope given in the sence of the Roman Church is the antichrist, including Peter.)

Problem with that? Why do you hold to traditional Protestant interpretation?

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by rembrandt]
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
[quote:ea54a67714][i:ea54a67714]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:ea54a67714]
I have been looking at this passage a while now, and I have concluded that Peter was the first Pope. But he was the only Pope. Their was no personal succession except that given to the Church at large.

I say this because it does appear that the keys were given [i:ea54a67714]especially[/i:ea54a67714] to him. He was the first to open the gospel of the NT kingdom on Pentecost etc..
(note: I only used the term "Pope" because it was convienient and throws alot of traditional protestant interpretation off. I believe that every other "Pope" is an antichrist. And that ANY Pope given in the since by the Roman Church is the antichrist, including Peter.)

Problem with that? Why do you hold to traditional Protestant interpretation?

Rembrandt [/quote:ea54a67714]

Read Galatians 2.
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
note: of course I don't think that we should call Peter a "Pope." I was only using that as a catch phrase. Don't shoot me! I make a distinction between the early and later Catholic Church, and the early Church used the term until things got out of hand...

Rembrandt
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:78c793baf5]Read Galatians 2.[/quote:78c793baf5]

I never said he was infallible in personal practice and execution of his task. Only that there was given to him a special privilege. How long that lasted, I do not know. I just cannot seem to buy into other interpretations of that verse that do all they can not to place emphasis on Peter.

Reminder: I was not being serious about him being THE Pope. And I don't mean it in the way of modern Romans.

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
<<<I have been looking at this passage a while now, and I have concluded that Peter was the first Pope. But he was the only Pope. Their was no personal succession except that given to the Church at large.>>>

" He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Matt.16:15-18


Who is the Rock?Peter or Christ?

The Lord is my rock and my fortess 2 Sam.22:2

My God is the rock of my refuge Psalm 94:22

Lead me to the rock that is higher tha i Psa.61:2

O Lord my rock Psa.28:1

For other foundation no one can lay,but that which has been laid,which is Jesus Christ 1 Cor.3:11

And did all drink the same spiritual drink,for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them,and that rock was Christ.1 Cor 10:4

Give the glory to Christ,and not to Peter,to Christ the true rock.
andreas.:candle:
 

sastark

Puritan Board Graduate
Paul,

Take a minute or two and read this short article on Matt 16:

http://www.gpcredding.org/petra.html

Now, if you are trying to say that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, perhaps, though we ought to study more church history to find out exactly about that.

Please also understand, that the office of "Pope" as it is today took several centuries to develop. There was not an all-of-a-sudden head of the Roman church (in fact, there wasn't a "Roman" church until centuries after Peter).

Also, to answer one of your questions, I do hold to the traditional Reformed view of the papacy being the man of sin.
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:86c7ad1c5e]Now, if you are trying to say that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, perhaps, though we ought to study more church history to find out exactly about that.

Please also understand, that the office of "Pope" as it is today took several centuries to develop. There was not an all-of-a-sudden head of the Roman church (in fact, there wasn't a "Roman" church until centuries after Peter).[/quote:86c7ad1c5e]

Oh, I know. All I am saying is that I believe that the keys were especially given to Peter (for how long I do not know) along with the church atlarge.

I will read the article.
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:5b4ee033bc][i:5b4ee033bc]Originally posted by andreas[/i:5b4ee033bc]
<<<I have been looking at this passage a while now, and I have concluded that Peter was the first Pope. But he was the only Pope. Their was no personal succession except that given to the Church at large.>>>

" He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Matt.16:15-18


Who is the Rock?Peter or Christ?

The Lord is my rock and my fortess 2 Sam.22:2

My God is the rock of my refuge Psalm 94:22

Lead me to the rock that is higher tha i Psa.61:2

O Lord my rock Psa.28:1

For other foundation no one can lay,but that which has been laid,which is Jesus Christ 1 Cor.3:11

And did all drink the same spiritual drink,for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them,and that rock was Christ.1 Cor 10:4

Give the glory to Christ,and not to Peter,to Christ the true rock.
andreas.:candle: [/quote:5b4ee033bc]

First of all, calling someone a rock doesn't deglorify Christ, or else he wouldn't have named Peter "rock" (not refering to the Matt. 16 passage here).

In Eph. 2:20 the phrase "built on the foundation" is given to the apostles and prophets. Certainly Jesus is the chief stone. But it does not deglorify to say that the church is built on an object other than Jesus. Because saying that it is built on the apostles and prophets assumes that it is built on Jesus first and foremost.
 

sastark

Puritan Board Graduate
[quote:ed4531c827][i:ed4531c827]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:ed4531c827]

Oh, I know. All I am saying is that I believe that the keys were especially given to Peter (for how long I do not know) along with the church atlarge.

I will read the article. [/quote:ed4531c827]

Well, if the keys were given to Peter specifically, he had them by himself for all of two chapters in Matthew. :)

See Matt. 18:18. Jesus, here talking to his disciples (not just Peter), says: "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

That's the same wording as in Matt. 16. So, even if Peter was given the keys, specifically (which I don't think is correct), they were soon enough given to all the disciples.

Thoughts?
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:2ce217d773][i:2ce217d773]Originally posted by sastark[/i:2ce217d773]
[quote:2ce217d773][i:2ce217d773]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:2ce217d773]

Oh, I know. All I am saying is that I believe that the keys were especially given to Peter (for how long I do not know) along with the church atlarge.

I will read the article. [/quote:2ce217d773]

Well, if the keys were given to Peter specifically, he had them by himself for all of two chapters in Matthew. :)

See Matt. 18:18. Jesus, here talking to his disciples (not just Peter), says: "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

That's the same wording as in Matt. 16. So, even if Peter was given the keys, specifically (which I don't think is correct), they were soon enough given to all the disciples.

Thoughts? [/quote:2ce217d773]

You changed my word [i:2ce217d773]especially[/i:2ce217d773] into [i:2ce217d773]specifically[/i:2ce217d773]. I think all the disciples had the keys. I just can't get around the plain fact of Peter's dignitary role in the Gospels and in him opening the gospel of the kingdom in Acts. I'm not saying that Peter had more power than the others, just that he was given an extraordinary task in being the leader of leaders (so to speak)...

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
<<<But it does not deglorify to say that the church is built on an object other than Jesus>>>
What is the significance of Matthew16:18?The context is Peter's confession that Jesus is the Messiah,and it is upon this truth,that Jesus will build his church,further more the gates of hell will not prevail against that church, as it stands upon that foundation.You are assuming that Peter is given authority,which in God's sight does not actually exist.
andreas.:candle:
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:e485b3fcc9]You are assuming that Peter is given authority,which in God's sight does not actually exist.[/quote:e485b3fcc9]

Church authority does not exist in God's sight? Peter is given authority (especially him). Did you not read that he has power to bind and loose along with the other disciples?

[quote:e485b3fcc9]as it stands upon that foundation[/quote:e485b3fcc9]

What foundation? Eph. 2:20, "built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets." Of course Christ is the chief cornerstone, but there are many places in Scripture where men are said to be "stones" (or something of the nature).

In light of this, what is wrong with saying that "upon this rock" is referring to the testimony of the Church (or the Church itself rather), in which the Apostles held up the truthfulness of Christ and restrained the wicked from adulterating the gospel?

Now I will ask, what/who do you suppose is the 'ground and pillar of truth'?

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
The statement of Jesus follows immediately after Peter's confessin of Jesus as Christ.It is upon the confession, that Jesus is the Messiah, that the church will be build by Christ.Afterall it is His body and He is the head.Peter has no authority to build the body of Christ.Only Chist has the authority.
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,which is Jesus Christ." 1 Corr. 3:11
andreas.:candle:

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by andreas]
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:9f56439033]Peter has no authority to build the body of Christ.Only Chist has the authority.[/quote:9f56439033]

Christ gave the apostles authority. Do you really not think this?

[quote:9f56439033]"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,which is Jesus Christ." 1 Corr. 3:11[/quote:9f56439033]

Is that why it was "built on the foundation of [i:9f56439033]apostles and prophets[/i:9f56439033] (Eph. 2:20)?" Of course they built on Jesus Christ. All I am saying is that the apostles and prophets aslo built the foundation. How could you not believe that?

Answer this question: [quote:9f56439033]Now I will ask, what/who do you suppose is the 'ground and pillar of truth'?[/quote:9f56439033]

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by rembrandt]
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
There is only one foundation and that is Jesus.Notice the apostle does not say foundations.We , and the apostles are but stones placed on the secure foundation which is Christ.Without a secure foundation you can not have a solid building.
andreas.:candle:
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:7b7755e21c][i:7b7755e21c]Originally posted by andreas[/i:7b7755e21c]
There is only one foundation and that is Jesus.Notice the apostle does not say foundations.We , and the apostles are but stones placed on the secure foundation which is Christ.Without a secure foundation you can not have a solid building.
andreas.:candle: [/quote:7b7755e21c]

Yes. And the Apostles continued to lay Jesus' foundation once he ascended. He intrusted them with the gospel (the new revelation of the gospel). The apostles allowed people into heaven and kept people out as they established the church. They were given ALL the authority of Jesus Christ as his [i:7b7755e21c]apostles[/i:7b7755e21c] (i.e. representative messengers, lawyers). Church government is Christ actively reigning in his church on earth.

You still didn't answer my question: [quote:7b7755e21c]Now I will ask, what/who do you suppose is the 'ground and pillar of truth'?[/quote:7b7755e21c]

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
<<<Now I will ask, what/who do you suppose is the 'ground and pillar of truth'?>>>

I presume you are a Roman Catholic and you are trying to say that the church is the mother of truth.
andreas.:candle:
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:58f4f3ad1e][i:58f4f3ad1e]Originally posted by andreas[/i:58f4f3ad1e]
<<<Now I will ask, what/who do you suppose is the 'ground and pillar of truth'?>>>

I presume you are a Roman Catholic and you are trying to say that the church is the mother of truth.
andreas.:candle: [/quote:58f4f3ad1e]

NKJV 1 Tim. 3:15, "the church of the living God, the [b:58f4f3ad1e][i:58f4f3ad1e]pillar and ground of truth[/i:58f4f3ad1e][/b:58f4f3ad1e]."

NIV, "the church of the living God, the [b:58f4f3ad1e][i:58f4f3ad1e]pilllar and foundation of truth[/i:58f4f3ad1e][/b:58f4f3ad1e]."

That is not only a Roman Catholic belief. Did you know that according to the WCF, the church has power to forgive sins?

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
<<<That is not only a Roman Catholic belief. Did you know that according to the WCF, the church has power to forgive sins? >>>

'And she shall bring forth a son and thou shall call his name Jesus,for he shall save his people from their sins." Matt.1:21

"For this is my blood of the new testament,which is shed for many for the remission of sins".Matt 26:28

"But that you may know that the son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins" Mark 2:10

I can not see anything here about little booths and Roman Catholic priests sitting in them forgiving sins.

"Without sheding of blood there is no remissin"Heb.9:22.

Whose blood are we taking about?Man's or God's blood?

"But with the precious blood of Christ,as of lamb without blemish and without spot".1 Peter 1:19

No man can forgive sins,God only can.

andreas.
:candle:
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:4ea5d729c4][i:4ea5d729c4]Originally posted by andreas[/i:4ea5d729c4]
<<<That is not only a Roman Catholic belief. Did you know that according to the WCF, the church has power to forgive sins? >>>

'And she shall bring forth a son and thou shall call his name Jesus,for he shall save his people from their sins." Matt.1:21

"For this is my blood of the new testament,which is shed for many for the remission of sins".Matt 26:28

"But that you may know that the son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins" Mark 2:10

I can not see anything here about little booths and Roman Catholic priests sitting in them forgiving sins.

"Without sheding of blood there is no remissin"Heb.9:22.

Whose blood are we taking about?Man's or God's blood?

"But with the precious blood of Christ,as of lamb without blemish and without spot".1 Peter 1:19

No man can forgive sins,God only can.

andreas.
:candle: [/quote:4ea5d729c4]

Yes, it is definitely by the blood of Jesus that we are forgiven. The Church has power to retain or remit sins through Church discipline and pronouncing God's judgments. I am just learning this myself from the thread on "authority of the Church" in the theology forum.

This is what the WCF says: 30.1. [quote:4ea5d729c4]The Lord Jesus, as King and Head of his church, hath therein appointed a government, in the hand of church officers, distinct from the civil magistrate. 30.2. To these officers the keys of the kingdom of heaven are committed; by virtue whereof, they have power, respectively, to retain, and remit sins; to shut that kingdom against the impenitent, both by the Word, and censures; and to open it unto penitent sinners, by the ministry of the gospel; and by absolution from censures, as occasion shall require. [/quote:4ea5d729c4]

Here are the proof texts: [quote:4ea5d729c4]Matthew 16:19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:17-18. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. John 20:21-23. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 2 Corinthians 2:6-8. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.[/quote:4ea5d729c4]

If you do not accept this, you reject Luther, Calvin, and all historic Reformed Churches! :judge:

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
<<<NKJV 1 Tim. 3:15, "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth." >>>

Christ is the foundation of the church,1 Corr.3:11,which is the product of the truth,Acts 2:41,47,hence the church can not be the foundation of truth.A pillar supports the truth,"thy word is truth" John 17:17,but the pillar itself rests on the solid foundation which is Christ.
andreas.:candle:
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:f6a93586c6]hence the church can not be the foundation of truth.[/quote:f6a93586c6]

But it says its the FOUNDATION! You are in direct disagreement with Scripture. You did not respond to my above post at all. There is no way to get around it. :chained:

Please do not respond again if you don't agree with Scripture.

Rembrandt
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
<<<Please do not respond again if you don't agree with Scripture. >>>

You believe that forgiveness is granted through the priest's absolution, to all those who confess their sins to the priest, who then makes satisfaction for them.Christ send his desciples to proclaim the gospell,and whoever repents and believes is forgiven on the merits of the sacrifice of Christ,while whoever rejects Christ is lost.We have to ask ourselves whether we are judges or messengers.If we are messengers then we proclaim forgiveness through faith in Christ.On the other hand if we are judges then we are invested with judiciary powers to pass sentence as Rome teaches.If you study 2 Corr.5:18-20,it is clear that we are messengers,ambassadors for Christ.Paul did not act as a judge.He performed his ministry of reconciliation through Christ and His cross.He did not act as a judge giving judicial sentences. Acts 13:38,39,tells us clearly that a christian minister acts through the preaching of the word and not by sitting on the judge's seat.Similarly in Luke 24:46-48, we see that sins are remitted in His name.Peter also clearly states that forgiveness is through the preaching of the gospel, Acts10:42,and he says nothing about confession to himself or to a priest as a means of obtainig forgiveness.You preach Jesus and His cross as the only means of forgiveness.1 John 2:12.
We confess our sins to God ,not to some priest.1 John 1:9. Psalm 32:5 says,i will confess my transgressins to the Lord,and Jesus has told us to pray to the Father for forgiveness. Luke 11:2-4.Nowhere in the bible does it say to confess to a priest,and the secret confessins of Rome were only introduced in the seventh century.We should ask God for forgiveness for it is His law that we break and commit sin.Catholics prescribe all sorts of penances,such as prayer,fasting,and almsgiving,however such forms are not supported by the scriptures,as we are only cleansed by the blood,and not by some human penance.
As for your comments that i reject Calvin and the reformers,that is what you say,not i.
What do the scriptures say?Rom 4:3.
andreas.:candle:
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
First, Joel Garver is not trustworthy.

Second, the Church has always seen the power of the Church to bind and remit sins as a function of church discipline. That means that the Church recognizes and expresses what is already true in reality in heaven. That is why "wherever two or three are gathered in my name I am in the midst of them" is about church discipline, not a prayer meeting.

Don't take advice from Garver.

{Edited for tone}

[Edited on 5-30-2004 by fredtgreco]
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
andreas, you have written too much for me to attempt to respond. Look over these verses again that you ignored:
[quote:230d3f2da3]Matthew 16:19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:17-18. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. John 20:21-23. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 2 Corinthians 2:6-8. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.[/quote:230d3f2da3]

These are the proof texts the WCF uses. If you do not agree that this doctrine is so, you do not agree with the Reformers.

Treat these verses and [i:230d3f2da3]then[/i:230d3f2da3] respond.

Read the link again, under "confession of sin." Note: I do not endorse the writter of this article blog thing, I only think this piece is helpful.

Fred, exactly who is he and why do you say that? I don't know anything about him. I only thought the piece on 'confession' was helpful.

Paul
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
If the church is the pillar of truth then it can not err doctrinally.which, in the case of the Roman catholic church, is far from the truth:
Canon Law On Forbidding to Marry

The following canons are quoted from the CODEX IURIS CANONICI, the current Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, copyright 1983, by Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Vatican City-

Can. 277 - § 1. Cleric are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, and therefore are obliged to observe celibacy, which is a special gift of God, by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and can more freely dedicate themselves to the service of God and mankind.

Can 1037 - An unmarried candidate for the permanent diaconate and a candidate for the presbyterate is not to be admitted to the order of diaconate unless in a prescribed rite he has assumed publicly before God and the Church the obligation of celibacy or professed perpetual vows in a religious institute.

Can 1087 - Persons who are in holy orders invalidly attempt marriage.

Can 1088 - Persons who are bound by a public perpetual vow of chastity in a religious institute invalidly attempt marriage.

So contrary to Paul's instructions, the Catholic priest has been forbidden to marry by Canon Law! What does the word say about this?

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, ...1 Timothy4:1-3.

So how can anyone call the Catholic church the pillar of truth?
andreas.
:candle:
 

andreas

Puritan Board Sophomore
Ephesians 2:20, describes the church as "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." Obviously and closely related is Matthew 16:18, where Jesus says, "Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

The church of Rome takes this rock to be Peter himself and the Popes as the successors of Peter. In fact, Jesus is saying that He is not going to build His church on Peter himself (he was not big enough to be the foundation of the church) but upon Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. That is a firm and unconquerable foundation.

In that light Ephesians 2:20 must also be interpreted as referring to apostolic teaching and doctrine, to the inspired Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. They are the church's foundation.

Built upon the teaching and doctrine of the Apostles the church is built upon Christ! He then is the chief cornerstone "in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth into an holy temple in the Lord" Ephesians 2:21
andreas.
:candle:
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:ebfdc5adfd]So how can anyone call the Catholic church the pillar of truth?[/quote:ebfdc5adfd]

1 Tim. 3:15, "the church of the living God, the [b:ebfdc5adfd]pillar[/b:ebfdc5adfd] and foundation of the truth."

Hello?? :candle:
 
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