Men with supernatural powers

[TimV]

How many of you believe that Yogis, Gurus, Shamans et. al. are widely capable of supernatural powers? I.e. powers that demonstrably defy existing physical theories? Like levitation, fasting for weeks without weight loss, moving objects with their mind, starting fires from a distance and the like.

And what are the methods out there used to judge such things? Would any of you use arguments like "it may have never been proven, but it's possible so I believe it" or "it's widely know so it's obviously true" or "Demons are real, therefore reliance on science is materialistic and lack of believe is tantamount to a lack of faith"?

Thanks

 

[smhbbag]

Demons are real, and those things are possible.

Science is a valid way of testing such claims, and my bias is against the reality of any individual event when it's reported.

I can't even name one off the top of my head that I believe. I'm rarely interested enough to look very far into them, and almost all of them allegedly happen in times and places where verification is impossible. Most witnesses simply are not credible.

Yet, I would approach any person involved in those things with extreme caution. Our struggle is against principalities and powers that do not play around. God Himself may be sending them a "powerful delusion" so they will believe their own lies (2 Thess 2:11).

To approach witch-doctors, shamans, etc. with the same snide attitude as the dismissive atheist is asking for trouble. God's Word is the proving ground for all things, and that takes the allure out of these false prophets.

If one of them did a super-natural act in front of my own eyes that I believed, the only right response is: "So what?" An apparent supernatural event in front of me does not hold the authority of God's Word, and it is certainly no verification of truth. Now, if it were from a man who were in all ways orthodox, then we'd have an interesting conversation there. I won't hold my breath for that.

 

[Jack K]

Much is a sham or trickery. Some is actual demonic power. In some cases, both demonic power and trickery are involved. When you're a servant of the devil, you can't always count on him to come through for you. You need to be able to fall back on your own tricks to keep your customers believing in you.

 

[Mushroom]

Strong delusion, believing the lie. Lie being the operative term.

Please show me any supernatural event other than that which God has wrought by His own arm. You can't because it does not exist except in the minds of those under the influence of strong delusion.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I wish I had supernatural powers. If I could have the abilities of Superman... that would be so cool.

 

[Zenas]

You don't? That changes a lot...

 

[Andres]

Strong delusion, believing the lie. Lie being the operative term.

Please show me any supernatural event other than that which God has wrought by His own arm. You can't because it does not exist except in the minds of those under the influence of strong delusion.

Pharaoh's magicians?

 

[TimV]

Some is actual demonic power.

But how would you prove it? If there's not one single documented example do you say that Gurus have this supernatural power because your theology demands that it be so? What is your reasoning?

 

[Phil D.]

Strong delusion, believing the lie. Lie being the operative term.

Please show me any supernatural event other than that which God has wrought by His own arm. You can't because it does not exist except in the minds of those under the influence of strong delusion.

So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. (Exodus 7:10-12a ESV)​

Ah, I see you beat me to this, Andrew...

 

[TimV]

One could point to the maniac who broke chains in the NT for an example in the Bible. Just as one could use the example of raising of the dead. But I'm talking nowadays, and something so common place that you can say "it's obvious those chaps (gurus) have supernatural powers. Such that one can sit down and determine that they are going to acquire supernatural powers by doing certain things.

 

[Jack K]

Some is actual demonic power.

But how would you prove it? If there's not one single documented example do you say that Gurus have this supernatural power because your theology demands that it be so? What is your reasoning?

I'm not sure that trying to prove it is the best approach. It really is more of a theological question than a scientific one. The Bible would say to me that spiritual beings exist and at times have been active in our world, and that they have properties, behaviors and abilities different from our own, often undetected by us. So it makes sense to think this is still the case today. However, I think my first instinct upon encountering a shaman would be to look for vagueness, trickery and the planting of suggestive ideas as key tools he uses. I'd be especially suspiscious of claims of the levitation, fire starting and such you mentioned. Also, the shaman himself, as a servant of the devil, is likely to be deluded as well about what all is going on. The devil is "a liar and the father of lies."

If I see a good magic show on stage, I can't prove the tricks are illusions but I believe they are—based on my knowledge of the character of stage magicians. They do illusions. Likewise, if I encounter a shaman I base my beliefs on what I know about the character of the one he serves. So I (1) look first of all for lies, (2) acknowledge that there are spiritual forces that at times may act "supernaturally" in the world and (3) fear none of it, nor get impressed by it, knowing that my Father controls all things natural and spiritual.

 

[Leslie]

What level of evidence does one require in order to believe? Most Christians believe in the resurrection because of historical evidence. Shouldn't one also accept a similar level of historical evidence elsewhere?

One should also make a distinction between particular suprnatural, unusual events and persons who are supposedly able to do feats at will. These are two entirely different phenomena.

 

[Mushroom]

What level of evidence does one require in order to believe? Most Christians believe in the resurrection because of historical evidence. Shouldn't one also accept a similar level of historical evidence elsewhere?

The Word of God is reliable, history written by men is not nearly so.

So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. (Exodus 7:10-12a ESV) Ah, I see you beat me to this, Andrew...

"Secret arts" is the key phrase. This does not necessitate an actual supernatural event instead of mere illusion. I hold it was illusion. Prove me wrong, please.

 

[Phil D.]

What level of evidence does one require in order to believe? Most Christians believe in the resurrection because of historical evidence. Shouldn't one also accept a similar level of historical evidence elsewhere?

The Word of God is reliable, history written by men is not nearly so.

So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. (Exodus 7:10-12a ESV) Ah, I see you beat me to this, Andrew...

"Secret arts" is the key phrase. This does not necessitate an actual supernatural event instead of mere illusion. I hold it was illusion. Prove me wrong, please.

So, Moses' real serpent swallowed the magicians' illusionary ones?

I believe the biblical account deserves to be taken at face value. The onus of proving and/or supposing that something else is meant falls on the doubter.

 

[Pergamum]

Pharoah's magicians didn't duplicate the other magic (because the bugs and things were too hard to hide in their cloaks maybe).

 

[LeeJUk]

I do believe that indeed some have real power from demons. Not many but some.

I think its just a reflection of our fear of the supernatural as reformed Christians and anything outside of the canon that causes us to reject all these things. Even if you hold to the gifts being ceased due to the canon being closed which I do not, that would mean the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceasing not ALL signs and wonders ceasing including demonic.

In fact does Christ not say in the last days there will be false lying signs and wonders? The signs and wonders and powerful and real at times in my opinion, used to sell a lie but it doesn't mean the power is an illusion merely but the lie it sells is the illusion.

As for documented proof there are many people who have said to experience things, people who later became Christians or even people as Christians who have seen/experiences supernatural and unbiblical things.

I recall one story of a Christian who was a cessationist but feeling rather curious he went to one of these slain in the Spirit meetings and the guy touched him and he really did get a surprise and felt power. He apparently realised this is not something you play around with and got out. (Think Tim Conway mentioned this in one of his videos).

I myself once have experienced something rather scary that certain wasn't delusion or even willing on my part. I watched this video on God-Tube of people who were charismatic - mystical sort of heretical people...i didnt realise...and they done certain spiritual activities on camera involving "impartations" if you like. Next thing I know I felt weak all over and had to turn the video off and was like that for about 5 minutes. Felt horrible and very frightening.

 

[Mushroom]

So, Moses' real serpent swallowed the magicians' illusionary ones? I believe the biblical account deserves to be taken at face value. The onus of proving and/or supposing that something else is meant falls on the doubter.

I am taking it at face value. Secret arts is more likely to mean illusion than supernatural event. That Aaron's rod which had become a serpent then swallowed the illusory serpents of the magicians was supernatural, by the arm of the Lord. There is no example in scripture of a supernatural event that was not instituted by God Himself. I submit that demon possession is not a supernatural event, but a common occurance that only affects the mind of the one possessed. Is there any scriptural evidence to the contrary?

This thread is derived from the Pharmakos/Sorcery thread. One thing that taking hallucinogens taught me that apparently escaped others is that the human mind is capable of contriving all sorts of illusions all on its own when influenced by outside stimuli. But it was all hallucination. I knew people who thought they were in the presence of spiritual beings while under the influence of drugs, but I was in the same room, and there was nothing out of the ordinary. It was in their minds, but they firmly believed it to be real. I have no doubt that similar effects can be brought on by other means than drugs, such as demon possession, suggestion, trance, wishful thinking, or just plain psychosis are a few that come to mind. But it ain't real. It's in the mind. Usually a result of sinful desire or fear or belief in false gods.

Nothing happens that is not under the complete, meticulous and sovereign will of God. Those who believe in ungodly supernatural events do so because they refuse to love the truth and be saved, so God sends them strong delusion that they may believe what is FALSE.

2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, (10) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (11) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, (12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

False, deception, and delusion are not words that would describe actual and true supernatural events, but.... deceptions.

 

[Phil D.]

First, I need to make a correction to my previous post. It was Aaron who cast down his rod in this case, which then became a serpent.

I am taking it at face value

I don't believe you are, brother. The text simply says that "each man cast down his staff [Hebrew mth], and they became serpents. But Aaron’s staff [mth], swallowed up their staffs[mth]." There is nothing that says one mth was real and the others imaginary. To assert so is pure eisogesis. To take the account at face value is to understand them as being the same basic entities.

There is no example in scripture of a supernatural event that was not instituted by God Himself.

That is the classic fallacy of begging the question.

I submit that demon possession is not a supernatural event, but a common occurance that only affects the mind of the one possessed.

Having read some of your posts in a previous thread, I realize that this is your position. I simply disagree with it. However, I guess I don't see any point in rehashing the topic. So I'm content to simply agree to disagree with you on these particular things.

Pharoah's magicians didn't duplicate the other magic

This is simply not true. " And the fish in the Nile died, and the Nile stank, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. There was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. 22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Exodis 7:21, 22 ESV)

 

[Pergamum]

There is no record that the magicians duplicated all of the other feats of Moses. Some of them they did, as was already pointed out with the snakes.

 

[Phil D.]

There is no record that the magicians duplicated all of the other feats of Moses. Some of them they did, as was already pointed out with the snakes.

I would certainly agree with this statement, as qualified from the original one.

 

[Peairtach]

The Brahan Seer predicted the decline and fall of the House of Seaforth (MacKenzies of Kintail) with astonishing accuracy, among other uncanny prophecies.

I've never heard of him being associated with the black arts, but would hesitate to say that his ability wasn't of the devil but purely a gift.

Brahan Seer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is unduly sceptical of the accuracy of his prophecies.

The book by Alexander MacKenzie gives a better account of Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche ( Sombre Kenneth of the Prophecies)
The Prophecies of the Brahan Seer (Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche), by Alexander Mackenzie et al. | The Online Books Page

 

[Mushroom]

I don't believe you are, brother. The text simply says that "each man cast down his staff [Hebrew mth], and they became serpents. But Aaron’s staff [mth], swallowed up their staffs[mth]." There is nothing that says one mth was real and the others imaginary. To assert so is pure eisogesis. To take the account at face value is to understand them as being the same basic entities.

No-one claimed the magicians' serpents weren't real serpents. The 'magic' was the change from rods to serpents. They accomplished this by 'secret arts', which to one who desires to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such, but the text does not require it in any way. Magicians perform like feats everyday in Las Vegas. Do you similarly assume they do it by supernatural means? If not, why not? You have just as much warrant to do so as you have with Pharaoh's magicians.

 

[AThornquist]

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, "Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him." Deut. 13:1-4


From this, Pharaoh's magicians, etc. I don't think I can deny that real supernatural and demonic things can be and are done. Have I seen them done? Not as far as I know. I don't think I could "prove it" if I had seen such things happen anyway.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such,

Aaron's rod ate up something. I am assuming that the text implies there was a material substance eating up another. I guess we can conclude that Moses and Aaron were dispelling just figurative things but I tend to doubt it. Especially since the text seems to be clear. By Faith I believe the scriptures as Hebrews speaks about. You can dispel by your scientific mind if you want. Why do I have to believe in a Virgin Birth? We can debate that also. The supposed Reformed have.

 

[Mushroom]

to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such,

Aaron's rod ate up something. I am assuming that the text implies there was a material substance eating up another. I guess we can conclude that Moses and Aaron were dispelling just figurative things but I tend to doubt it. Especially since the text seems to be clear. By Faith I believe the scriptures as Hebrews speaks about. You can dispel by your scientific mind if you want. Why do I have to believe in a Virgin Birth? We can debate that also. The supposed Reformed have.

Randy, I did not say that the magicians did not produce actual serpents. Please read carefully before commenting. Please refrain from nonsensical accusations. I have not professed to possess a 'scientific mind'. Quite the contrary.... my mind is generally jello. I have simply stated that there is no scriptural description of supernaturality other than that exercized by God Himself. To infer some asinine thing about my doubting the virgin birth is offensive and a violation of the ninth commandment.

If ya'll want to believe in hobgoblins, spells and boogeymen, that's your prerogative, but as for me and my house, we will hold the Lord alone sovereign, and alone supernatural. But I will not be idly accused of faithlessness due to that. My God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, reigns unhindered over all things, His Son, my Redeemer, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, and raised on the third day is God and King over all, and will share His glory with no other. The Devil and his demons have no power over the people of God other than that which God allows. The signs and wonders referred to are called LYING signs and wonders, because they are counterfeits - not REAL. A counterfeit is not a counterfeit because it is real but misleads those who follow it, it is counterfeit because it is not real.

Zec 10:1-2 Ask rain from the LORD in the season of the spring rain, from the LORD who makes the storm clouds, and he will give them showers of rain, to everyone the vegetation in the field. (2) For the household gods utter nonsense, and the diviners see lies; they tell false dreams and give empty consolation. Therefore the people wander like sheep; they are afflicted for lack of a shepherd.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Um, its not just Aaron's staff. In Acts 16 we see a woman who could foretell the future because of the demon in her. The scriptures actually call it a spirit of "divination." When the demon was cast out, she lost this ability (verse 19).

Another example is the demon that apparently gave the man superhuman abilities against the sons of Sceva. Likewise the demoniac that Jesus encountered, who had such superhuman strength that he shattered chains!(Mark 5:4).

I think there is no reason to doubt these things other than a post modern antisupernatural bias. Of COURSE they could do some things, assuming they were in the company of demons/ demon possessed.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

The Devil and his demons have no power over the people of God other than that which God allows. The signs and wonders referred to are called LYING signs and wonders, because they are counterfeits - not REAL. A counterfeit is not a counterfeit because it is real but misleads those who follow it, it is counterfeit because it is not real.

The construction of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 does not really support this, brother. It says that the devil manifests in power, signs, and false wonders. In other words, both real and fake miracles. Absolutely this is power granted by a sovereign God...but so too is it by the Lord's permission that a psychopath puts his hand on a gun and begins to shoot.

How would you respond to the super powered demon possessed people we see in the New Testament? How was the demoniac able to shatter chains, and overpower groups of men?

 

[Mushroom]

Um, its not just Aaron's staff. In Acts 16 we see a woman who could foretell the future because of the demon in her. The scriptures actually call it a spirit of "divination." When the demon was cast out, she lost this ability (verse 19).

Please see the above quoted portion of scripture out of Zechariah.

Another example is the demon that apparently gave the man superhuman abilities against the sons of Sceva. Likewise the demoniac that Jesus encountered, who had such superhuman strength that he shattered chains!(Mark 5:4).

I have a very stubborn dog, who through consistent running to the chain's end with a strong yank, broke every chain I bound her with until I finally bought a welded chain (technology unavailable in 33 BC) that held her. Was she supernaturally doing this? I have seen enraged psychopaths do amazing things. Was it by magic, or were they just nuts?

I think there is no reason to doubt these things other than a post modern antisupernatural bias. Of COURSE they could do some things, assuming they were in the company of demons/ demon possessed.

There is a reason to doubt the supernaturality of these events other than post-modern antisupernatural bias. That reason would be scripture, where no event is given supernatural cause but the acts of God, and all other seemingly supernatural events are called lying wonders.

The construction of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 does not really support this, brother. It says that the devil manifests in power, signs, and false wonders. In other words, both real and fake miracles. Absolutely this is power granted by a sovereign God...but so too is it by the Lord's permission that a psychopath puts his hand on a gun and begins to shoot.

2 Thess 2:9 calls these things FALSE signs and wonders. How do you possibly miss that? I think there is present here a bias towards giving the Devil and his demons far more authority and power than is their due. You make him into some kind of dualistic other god, in the same vein as the loopy pentecostals, then go about battling an invented enemy. We're not battling spiritual forces who have real power to perform signs and wonders, we are battling defeated entities who can only use deceit and delusion to drag human souls away from the truth. Part of that deceit and delusion is the idea that they have these powers, and we surrender the field to them when we chase after imaginary foes rather than the real enemy - the lies that enslave so much of humanity. Lies about what and Who God is, and lies about who and what our spiritual enemies are.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Another example is the demon that apparently gave the man superhuman abilities against the sons of Sceva. Likewise the demoniac that Jesus encountered, who had such superhuman strength that he shattered chains!(Mark 5:4).

I have a very stubborn dog, who through consistent running to the chain's end with a strong yank, broke every chain I bound her with until I finally bought a welded chain (technology unavailable in 33 BC) that held her. Was she supernaturally doing this? I have seen enraged psychopaths do amazing things. Was it by magic, or were they just nuts?

Brother, those "unwelded" chains bound teams of horses, anchors on huge sailing ships, and were used to hoist multiple ton pieces of stone. The manacles they used were bended 1/8th to 1/4 inch iron. It says he shattered them. That is not some psychopathic fit. That is an unbelievable supernatural amount of power.

I think there is no reason to doubt these things other than a post modern antisupernatural bias. Of COURSE they could do some things, assuming they were in the company of demons/ demon possessed.

There is a reason to doubt the supernaturality of these events other than post-modern antisupernatural bias. That reason would be scripture, where no event is given supernatural cause but the acts of God, and all other seemingly supernatural events are called lying wonders.

The construction of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 does not really support this, brother. It says that the devil manifests in power, signs, and false wonders. In other words, both real and fake miracles. Absolutely this is power granted by a sovereign God...but so too is it by the Lord's permission that a psychopath puts his hand on a gun and begins to shoot.

2 Thess 2:9 calls these things FALSE signs and wonders. How do you possibly miss that? I think there is present here a bias towards giving the Devil and his demons far more authority and power than is their due. You make him into some kind of dualistic other god, in the same vein as the loopy pentecostals, then go about battling an invented enemy. We're not battling spiritual forces who have real power to perform signs and wonders, we are battling defeated entities who can only use deceit and delusion to drag human souls away from the truth. Part of that deceit and delusion is the idea that they have these powers, and we surrender the field to them when we chase after imaginary foes rather than the real enemy - the lies that enslave so much of humanity. Lies about what and Who God is, and lies about who and what our spiritual enemies are.

No, it does not say that.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Notice; he comes with power (real, God given power), signs (real, God permitted signs) and lying (pseudo, fake) wonders or signs. Its both fake signs, and real signs.

Notice what John Calvin says about the demoniacs.

"Naturally, he was not able to break the chains; and hence we infer that Satan is sometimes permitted to make extraordinary movements, the effect of which goes beyond our comprehension and beyond ordinary means." (Commentaries, Mark 5:3, emphasis added).

So I feel I am in good company. Calvin asserts that it was supernatural.

 

[Pergamum]

This has been a great thread so far! I have been unsettled on these issues for awhile now. Thanks to the OP starter!

 

[Pergamum]

One anecdotal story (for what it counts for): A friend here in SE Asia got "cursed" and within 2 hours had a severe bike wreck on the motorbike.

Also, in missions among animists sometimes tribal peoples are reported to get cursed and physical ailments then occur afterwards. On hearing these reports I always wonder if these are psychosomatic primarily or if there is also a spiritual element at work, especially among the unbelievers.