"Mixed modes" of Worship

[panta dokimazete]

On another thread, Rev. Winzer responded to a line of discussion on Psalmody:

The point is, good fellow, that you can't read, pray AND sing the Psalms all in one motion, as is clear from the very manner in which you state the case. The Bible clearly distinguishes these actions as modes of worship. The sooner you concede the obvious, the sooner this discussion can proceed apace.

Now - I think his point is that the practice of the modes of worship are clearly delineated as a Scriptural mandate, therefore there is no "mixed modes" of worship. No singing of prayers, no reading of songs, etc...

I am interested in understanding the rationale and understanding the Scriptural support for this position.


Also:

Rev. Winzer - my sincerest apologies if I have mis-stated your position and I would also like to apologize and sincerely repent if I have caused you to believe that I hold anything but the deepest respect for you - your contributions to the board are excellent and I have learned much from your responses.

 

[panta dokimazete]

My questions, exactly - seeking to understand..

 

[panta dokimazete]

**bump**

 

[KMK]

Maybe Calvin can shed some light. (I know Rev Winzer likes Calvin)

From Calvin's tract of 1544 titled The Necessity of Reforming the Church.

[T]he rule which distinguishes between pure and vitiated worship is of universal application, in order that we may not adopt any device which seems fit to ourselves, but look to the injunction of him who alone is entitled to prescribe. Therefore, if we would have him to approve our worship, this rule, which he everywhere enforces with utmost strictness, must be carefully observed. For there is a twofold reason why the Lord, in condemning and prohibiting all fictitious worship, requires us to give obedience only to his own voice. First, it tends greatly to establish his authority that we do not follow our own pleasure, but depend entirely on his sovereignty; and, secondly, such is our folly, that when we are left at liberty, all we are able to do is to go astray. And then when once we have turned aside from the right path, there is no end to our wanderings, until we get buried under a multitude of superstitions. Justly, therefore, does the Lord, in order to assert his full right of dominion, strictly enjoin what he wishes us to do, and at once reject all human devices which are at variance with his command. Justly, too, does he in express terms, define our limits, that we may not, by fabricating perverse modes of worship, provoke his anger against us.

I know how difficult it is to persuade the world that God disapproves of all modes of worship not expressly sanctioned by his word. The opposite persuasion which cleaves to them, being seated, as it were, in their very bones and marrow, is, that whatever they do has in itself sufficient sanction, provided it exhibits some kind of zeal for the honor of God. But since God not only regards as fruitless, but also plainly abominates, whatever we undertake from zeal to his worship, if at variance with his command, what do we gain by a contrary course? The words of God are clear and distinct, "Obedience is better than sacrifice." "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men," (1 Sam. 15:22; Matt. 15:9). Every addition to his word, especially in this matter, is a lie.

Based on this I could hazard a guess that 'acceptable modes of worship' would be: Prayer, Fasting, Singing, The Lord's Supper, Baptism, Oaths and Vows, Days of Thanksgiving, and maybe Dancing depending on your view of the RPW. If I have missed any I am sure someone will let us know.

 

[MW]

I think the position has been well represented. Right now I am in the mode of typing. I could be putting the same words on paper with a pen, but my mode would have changed from typing to writing. Likewise, one might sing or pray the same words, but they cannot do the same mode of action at the same time. Note what the apostle Paul says, 1 Cor. 14:15. This is not tautology, but an implicitly acknowledged distinction in modes of worship.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Rev Winzer,

Lord willing, I'll be coming by the air mode of transportation to Rockhampton for about a week in early June. Everything is falling into place....

 

[KMK]

Right now I am listening to Miles Davis improvise in the Dorian mode, but I also enjoy listening to Monk flirt with the Locrian mode with a raised second.

 

[MW]

Rich, so you don't think you can fly and sail at the same time? Eagerly looking forward to your visit. Blessings!

 

[tcalbrecht]

I think the position has been well represented. Right now I am in the mode of typing. I could be putting the same words on paper with a pen, but my mode would have changed from typing to writing. Likewise, one might sing or pray the same words, but they cannot do the same mode of action at the same time. Note what the apostle Paul says, 1 Cor. 14:15. This is not tautology, but an implicitly acknowledged distinction in modes of worship.

What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. (1 Cor. 14:15)

I'm not sure howthis verse speaks to your definition of "modes of worship". The passage in question begins with Paul saying, "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?" (v. 6) The challenge for Paul is that all things be done with understanding and for the edification of the church. I don't think it says anything about whether we should, for example, sing the Psalms or recite the Psalms.

Do you think the the pastor should not read from the Scriptures while the elements of the Lord's Supper are being distributed since that would be confusing two "modes"?

Regarding the Calvin quote, he appears to use the word "mode" in the way the Westminster Confession uses the parts, "are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: ..."

Presbyterians distinguish between the elements (modes, parts) of worship and the circumstances.

 

[panta dokimazete]

My understanding is that there is some implied or implict RPW mandate that the elements of worship may not be "mixed" - that is prayer and song cannot be simultaneous or juxtaposed (in other words - singing a prayer, etc...).

I am interested in understanding this better, as well, since I don't think it is a Scriptural position.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I am not sure, but I am hesitant to assert it absolutely does not until Rev. Winzer, or some other proponent of the position, clarifies it.

I think I keep **bumping** it for the wrong time zone...

 

[MW]

I'm not sure howthis verse speaks to your definition of "modes of worship". The passage in question begins with Paul saying, "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?" (v. 6) The challenge for Paul is that all things be done with understanding and for the edification of the church. I don't think it says anything about whether we should, for example, sing the Psalms or recite the Psalms.

I think you have pitched on the "spirit" and "understanding" distinction rather than the one I intended to draw attention to, which is the "pray" and "sing" distinction. Why did the apostle mention both if the two were one and the same? Implicit in the fact that he mentions the two modes of action is the recognition that they are two distinct actions in NT worship.

Do you think the the pastor should not read from the Scriptures while the elements of the Lord's Supper are being distributed since that would be confusing two "modes"?

Yes, I think that is possible. What I think would be quite a challenge is to read the Scriptures whilst eating the bread and drinking the wine, and to do both actions in obedience to what Scripure requires of us when we engage in these duties. Consider the Larger Catechism's teaching of how the Word is to be read and heard, as well as what is required of us when we partake of the Lord's supper, and it will be evident that we need to pay attention to one element of worship at a time.

 

[KMK]

Consider the Larger Catechism's teaching of how the Word is to be read and heard, as well as what is required of us when we partake of the Lord's supper, and it will be evident that we need to pay attention to one element of worship at a time.

 

[panta dokimazete]

we need to pay attention to one element of worship at a time

Where is this Scripturally mandated?

It is reasonably discerned that singing and praying are not mutually exclusive in all instances - one may pray in the midst of partaking of Communion elements - one may pray and read the Word simultaneously. There may indeed be elements that it is impractical to "mix", but it is not disorderly to "mix" the modes.

 

[MW]

Where is this Scripturally mandated?

It is reasonably discerned that singing and praying are not mutually exclusive in all instances - one may pray in the midst of partaking of Communion elements - one may pray and read the Word simultaneously. There may indeed be elements that it is impractical to "mix", but it is not disorderly to "mix" the modes.

JD, You keep saying this without stopping to demonstrate it. I have shown over and again where Scripture assumes they are different modes of action, yet you keep asking me to prove it scripturally. All you offer in reply is the bare possibility that they may be performed in one and the same action. Meanwhile, as far as I can see, all you are doing is establishing that you can pray by singing, and sing by praying. In this you are still recognising that singing and praying are distinct modes of action. Stop and think about it for a moment, please. I do not deny that singing should be supplicatory or that praying should be with a heart of praise. All I maintain is that Scripture recognises the mode of action as distinct.

 

[KMK]

JD, You keep saying this without stopping to demonstrate it. I have shown over and again where Scripture assumes they are different modes of action, yet you keep asking me to prove it scripturally. All you offer in reply is the bare possibility that they may be performed in one and the same action. Meanwhile, as far as I can see, all you are doing is establishing that you can pray by singing, and sing by praying. In this you are still recognising that singing and praying are distinct modes of action. Stop and think about it for a moment, please. I do not deny that singing should be supplicatory or that praying should be with a heart of praise. All I maintain is that Scripture recognises the mode of action as distinct.

And you certainly cannot sing while partaking of the cup, unless you are a ventriloquist!

 

[MW]

And you certainly cannot sing while partaking of the cup, unless you are a ventriloquist!

Good one!

 

[panta dokimazete]

And you certainly cannot sing while partaking of the cup, unless you are a ventriloquist!

I can sing with my spirit and my mind in my heart without making a sound or utilizing my vocal chords, so yes I can sing while partaking of the cup. Just as I can do the same when I pray.

Psalm 30:12
that my heart may sing to you and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give you thanks forever

Psalm 42:8
By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me— a prayer to the God of my life.


So - mockery aside - while one may do one or the other without co-mingling the modes - they can be co-mingled, as well.

It is not an either-or - as you seem to propose - it is a both-and.

 

[MW]

I can sing with my spirit and my mind in my heart without making a sound or utilizing my vocal chords, so yes I can sing while partaking of the cup. Just as I can do the same when I pray.

JD, if you pay attention to all that Scripture says about singing, you will discover that you are to teach and admonish one another with your singing, Eph. 5:19. This you cannot do in your mind. This is yet another example of the manner in which Scripture presents singing as a distinct mode of worship with its own regulations, which, if we observed, we would discover it requires all of our powers of concentration.

 

[panta dokimazete]

JD, if you pay attention to all that Scripture says about singing, you will discover that you are to teach and admonish one another with your singing, Eph. 5:19. This you cannot do in your mind. This is yet another example of the manner in which Scripture presents singing as a distinct mode of worship with its own regulations, which, if we observed, we would discover it requires all of our powers of concentration.

And yet teaching is not exclusively with song?

Just as prayer in worship is not required to be spoken.

I can concentrate on a song that is a prayer and give just as much attention to a spoken prayer.

I can sing praises or speak praises with singular concentration.

I am sorry - while I agree with or at least see a reasonable path for many of your positions, this does not track out - I suppose we may have to agree to disagree.

 

[MW]

So the Scriptures say, Teach and admonish one another in your singing, Eph. 5:19, but JD insists he can sing in his mind and teach using another mode. I choose to follow the Scriptures.

 

[panta dokimazete]

So the Scriptures say, Teach and admonish one another in your singing, Eph. 5:19, but JD insists he can sing in his mind and teach using another mode. I choose to follow the Scriptures.

please do - as will I when I teach and admonish with both singing and speaking:

John 7:17
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

 

[MW]

please do - as will I when I teach and admonish with both singing and speaking:

No doubt teaching should be spoken as well, but if singing is going to be engaged in for the purpose of teaching others, as the Scriptures exhort us to do, it will require us to sing with a voice which can be heard and understood by others. Hence your previous comments about singing inaudibly are found to be inconsistent with the Scriptures.

Also, I sense you are misapplying the 1 Cor. 14 statement about singing with the mind. It does not refer to singing inaudibly, but with the understanding, that is, in an intelligible speech, as the context makes plain.

 

[KMK]

As a baptist I think it would be cool to see a pastor try to break bread and baptize at the same time.

 

[panta dokimazete]

No doubt teaching should be spoken as well, but if singing is going to be engaged in for the purpose of teaching others, as the Scriptures exhort us to do, it will require us to sing with a voice which can be heard and understood by others. Hence your previous comments about singing inaudibly are found to be inconsistent with the Scriptures.

Also, I sense you are misapplying the 1 Cor. 14 statement about singing with the mind. It does not refer to singing inaudibly, but with the understanding, that is, in an intelligible speech, as the context makes plain.

So...mute people cannot worship through singing? One would assume they would sing in their mind/heart.

Psalm 30:12
that my heart may sing to you and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give you thanks forever

Ephesians 5:19

Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,

Does singing and making music in your heart refer to audible sound?

Also, please note the mixing of "speaking" to one another and "singing" songs.

Again - you attempt to apply a mandate that is not Scriptural.

Once more - it is not a matter of strictly one or another "mode" at any one time. Each may be fully separated - some may be juxtaposed - some may be co-mingled and still be orderly.

 

[tcalbrecht]

So the Scriptures say, Teach and admonish one another in your singing, Eph. 5:19, but JD insists he can sing in his mind and teach using another mode. I choose to follow the Scriptures.

Actully, that's not quite what it says:

... speaking (lalounteV) to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing (adonteV) and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

The speaking is to one another, the singing is internalized ("in your heart"). The same sort of parallel exists in Col. 3:16.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

There certainly seems to be an allowance for "mixed modes" in this passage.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable. All I'm suggesting is that the passages are not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

 

[KMK]

This thread has turned into a debate about whether one can sing and or pray in their mind while doing other things. No one is going to argue against that (I don't think). But just because you can sing or pray in your mind while doing other things does not prove that that is what the writers of the NT had in mind when they used these words. When I read the word 'sing' in the Bible I understand it to mean 'with the voice out loud'. If the context of the passage demands that I understand 'sing' as 'silently to myself in my mind' then so be it.

Also, just because you have the ability to sing or pray in your mind while doing other things does not in and of itself argue for 'mixed modes of worship'. It simple argues that one has the ability to sing or pray while doing other things. As I have pointed out in previous posts, there are just as many examples of modes that cannot be mixed as well.

In JDLongmire's original post he said this:

I am interested in understanding the rationale and understanding the Scriptural support for this position.

I think Rev Winzer has done that. He has shown how the Bible speaks of different modes of worship. Just because one has the ability to blend some of them together does not mean that the Bible blends them together.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Just because one has the ability to blend some of them together does not mean that the Bible blends them together.

I disagree and have posted Scripture to support the position.

I do not believe this stricture to be reasonably discerned from Scripture.

 

[Davidius]

I disagree and have posted Scripture to support the position.

I do not believe this stricture to be reasonably discerned from Scripture.

JD,

Do you always use the least didactic and most figurative passages to defend your positions? Just like a passage about a "new song" in Isaiah that comes right after a command for the beaches and mountains to sing praise to God is not meant to be taken didactively regarding the regulations on the mode of singing, other passages like the one you've quoted from the Psalms here don't seem to be very helpful in deciding what singing is.

 

[panta dokimazete]

JD,

Do you always use the least didactic and most figurative passages to defend your positions?

Because there is clearer didactic with the Scriptures I have utilized than those that would support a more legalistic view of the elements' use.