modern prophets

Discussion in 'Pneumatology' started by johnny_redeemed, May 18, 2004.

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  1. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    what do you guys think about people who say that they are prophets (just like the ones in the O.T. and N.T.)?

    if you think there are no prophets today could you please give Bible verses.

    if you think there are prophets today could you please give Bible verses.
     
  2. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    Prophets in the sense of preachers of the gospel or prophets who are receiving new revelation from God which is not found in Scripture.
     
  3. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    could you please use scripture to prove your point. i am not saying i disagree, but i want to see it in the Bible.



    :book:
     
  4. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    Josh,

    It depends on your definition of what is a prophet.

    (1 Cor. 13:8-10)
    "[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

    [Edited on 5-18-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]
     
  5. Ranger

    Ranger Puritan Board Freshman

    If a prophet is one who speaks to a particular people with God's message, and likewise speaks to God on behalf of a particular people, then we have many of them in the church today.
     
  6. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    Paul thank you for getting what i meant by "just like." i thought that that was a good definition, but for those of you who need a better definition here is one. by a prophet i mean some one who hear directly from God (not the Bible) and talks back to God i.e. someone like Isaiah.

    Paul, or anyone, could you give me any more verses?

    [Edited on 5-18-2004 by johnny_redeemed]
     
  7. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    Paul,

    Did the apostle Paul have the gift of prophecy or the apostle John?

    After all didn't God use them to pen a large portion of the New Testament through special revelation.

    Ranger,

    A prophet spoke from God to man, a priest spoke from man to God.
     
  8. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:5346b5c4f0]the above verse refutes that, but here is another[/quote:5346b5c4f0]


    what do you mean by this Paul?
     
  9. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:2942549cb6][i:2942549cb6]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:2942549cb6]
    [quote:2942549cb6][i:2942549cb6]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:2942549cb6]
    [quote:2942549cb6]the above verse refutes that, but here is another[/quote:2942549cb6]


    what do you mean by this Paul? [/quote:2942549cb6]

    I mean that

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. [/quote:2942549cb6]



    refutes that there are modern prophets or something esle?

    that is what i was confussed on. sorry i am a bit slow
     
  10. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    Paul i agree that Jesus was the last prophet, but how do you deal with agubus in the book of acts. it calls him a prophet?
     
  11. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:d07325dbe0][i:d07325dbe0]Paul manata[/i:d07325dbe0]
    Christ is the last prophet[/quote:d07325dbe0]

    I'm not sure if you just mean that he is the final revelation, or what. But certainly there were NT "prophets" since Paul described it as a NT office.

    [quote:d07325dbe0][i:d07325dbe0]CajunBibleBeliever[/i:d07325dbe0]
    Did the apostle Paul have the gift of prophecy or the apostle John?[/quote:d07325dbe0]

    All apostles were prophets. But not all prophets were apostles.

    [quote:d07325dbe0]could you give me any more verses?[/quote:d07325dbe0]

    There are not any that PROVE that there are never any more prophets. I could [b:d07325dbe0]easily[/b:d07325dbe0] come up with arguements that show that Hebrews 1, the Ephesians passage, 1 Cor. 13:8-10, do not PROVE the office of the prophet has ceased.

    I believe the office of prophet and the gift of prophesy have ceased (or I'd rather say, "virtually diminished"). But there is NO WAY to prove that from the BIBLE. It must be proved by church history and the testimony of the church. There is NO other way because Scripture does not say.

    Rembrandt
     
  12. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:664a957c20][i:664a957c20]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:664a957c20]
    Paul i agree that Jesus was the last prophet, but how do you deal with agubus in the book of acts. it calls him a prophet? [/quote:664a957c20]

    I know that you are not talking to this Paul (me), but Manata, so sorry to interrupt. But am I missing something here? You don't think there were prophets AFTER the death of Jesus Christ? Why did Paul (the apostle) mention the office of prophet in the five-fold ministry?

    Rembrandt
     
  13. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    Paul what about Agubas in the book of acts?

    and where in the Bible does it say that an apostle needs to have seen the risen Christ?
     
  14. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:1957705d3a][i:1957705d3a]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:1957705d3a]
    Paul what about Agubas in the book of acts?

    and where in the Bible does it say that an apostle needs to have seen the risen Christ? [/quote:1957705d3a]

    I believe if you look in Acts 1:20 and following.

    (Acts 1:20-23)
    "[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take. [21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. [23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias."
     
  15. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:56753cb559][i:56753cb559]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:56753cb559]
    oh, so there are many foundations?

    clarification I meant that special revelation ceased with Christ, and/or those who spoke authoritativly FOR Christ. the qualification to be an apostle is that one must have seen the risen Lord.

    Let's turn the tables: are these "prophets" bringing new revelation for ALL of God's peple?

    why would I need a "prophet" if I have Scripture and am thuroughly equipped with that?

    what is the function of these "prophets."

    who are they?

    they must be one person because if we say "just like" then we must say that the person HAS the gift not just *fleeting moments" of "prophetic utterences" that are not verifiable.

    -Paul [/quote:56753cb559]

    I am a cessationalist (though not by modern standards). There are NO MORE PROPHETS that we know of or that are important for us to know (atleast to my knowledge). All I am saying is that the Bible does not prove this. But church history and church testimony DOES! I will read the article tomorrow.

    Rembrandt
     
  16. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:32dc82462d][i:32dc82462d]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:32dc82462d]

    I believe if you look in Acts 1:20 and following.

    (Acts 1:20-23)
    "[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take. [21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. [23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias." [/quote:32dc82462d]


    thanks that helps with my second question. anyone want to answer my first question, what about agabus in the book of acts? if Jesus is the last prophet what about this guy that the book of acts calls a prophet?
     
  17. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:f13684de18]Apotles have ceased. With the ceasing of apostles special revelation has ceased. Prophets gave special revelation. Therefore, prophets have ceased.[/quote:f13684de18]

    Should we be so quick to clump all forms of prophesy into one big whole?
     
  18. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:c338a0579f][i:c338a0579f]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:c338a0579f]
    "Just like"

    Well, those prophets gave us special revelation and special revealtion ha ceased. But you want a verse. We can start with one:

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Christ is the last prophet

    -Paul [/quote:c338a0579f]


    Paul you said Christ was the last prophet, yet the book of acts calls agabus a prophet, AFTER Christ. that is why you need to explain agabus.

    Acts 21:10
    And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.


    :book:

    :handshake:
     
  19. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:9078bbd890][i:9078bbd890]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:9078bbd890]
    [quote:9078bbd890][i:9078bbd890]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:9078bbd890]
    [quote:9078bbd890]Apotles have ceased. With the ceasing of apostles special revelation has ceased. Prophets gave special revelation. Therefore, prophets have ceased.[/quote:9078bbd890]

    Should we be so quick to clump all forms of prophesy into one big whole? [/quote:9078bbd890]

    but the original question was "have prophets JUST LIKE the OT and NT prophets ceased?"

    So, bring up another definition and question and we can deal with that.

    -Paul [/quote:9078bbd890]

    First of all, I would like to know how that syllogism (or whatever) is BIBLICAL. Meaning, how it is exegetically derived from Scripture. Just because prophets helped lay the foundation of revelation, it does not IMPLY that they have ceased all existence. Apostles needed to see the risen Lord for accredation, and prophets did not. So with the ceasing of the first, it doesn't rule out the second just because they both share some of the same functionalities.

    All I'm saying here, is that there must be other ground for how we argue that "prophets JUST LIKE the ones in the OT and NT" have ceased. I see no justification behind the idea that we can gather from the BIBLE that God CANNOT raise up a prophet (in some sense of the word) to restore us to the foundation that has already been made. Prophets were not ALWAYS giving new revelation, they confirmed previous revelation.

    I could easily prove that the office of prophet serves no functionality in the church today, and that we have good reason to dismiss prophesy as worthless since God has chosen to take prophets away in the early church, and that any occurances in later times (Reformation) was just sparadic happenings that is not regulative for the ENTIRE church age. But this is not in the BIBLE. I can go back and point to certain texts in the Bible after I read my viewpoint into them... but the texts still do not EXCLUSIVELY PROVE that this has actually occured.

    Rembrandt
     
  20. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:37ec76c159][i:37ec76c159]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:37ec76c159]
    Johhny, I have clarified that statement twice now...check my other posts. Read my clarification and then get back to my question? "so what's the problem. [/quote:37ec76c159]

    I went back and read all your posts. i do not see when you dealt with the text that states that agabus was a prophet. all i saw was your syllogism that "proved" prophets where not for today.

    i want you to know, Paul, that i AGREE with you. i just want to know how to deal with this text because other people bring it up to me all the time.

    if you would, please, show me how to deal specifically with this text. i would really appreciate it.
     
  21. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    "Apotles have ceased."
    Yes

    "With the ceasing of apostles [b:4ec90e56bd]special revelation has ceased[/b:4ec90e56bd]."
    Every form of special revelation? Can you prove that FOR SURE?

    "Prophets gave special revelation."
    Yes

    "Therefore, prophets have ceased."
    I used to think that. But I don't see how this is based on the apostles ceasing anymore. Did prophets cease BECAUSE apostles ceased? Or did they cease because we have good knowledge that continuing revelation (doctrinal, directional) has ceased THEREFORE there is no need for regualur prophets...

    Rembrandt

    [Edited on 5-18-2004 by rembrandt]
     
  22. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    o.k. Thank you Paul. i can be slow at times, okay, all the time.

    i have another question then, is agabus a prophet in the same sense as Moses? if yes why, if no why, and please, as i know you love to do, use the Scripture in your response.
     
  23. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    the verses-quoted earlier-calls him a prophet. the only way that this can be taken, as far as i can tell, is that he is a prophet like Moses. that would mean that Jesus was NOT the last prophet.

    i do not like this conclusion i think it is contrary to other biblical texts so please help.
     
  24. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:53a455b170]But I am tapering of my posts so I will let someone else pick up[/quote:53a455b170]


    does this mean you are done here at Puritan Board? or just with this topic?


    p.s. you picture is not working.
     
  25. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:a2f42f9364][i:a2f42f9364]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:a2f42f9364]
    [quote:a2f42f9364]But I am tapering of my posts so I will let someone else pick up[/quote:a2f42f9364]


    does this mean you are done here at Puritan Board? or just with this topic?


    p.s. you picture is not working. [/quote:a2f42f9364]

    His picture is not working? Maybe he has resigned his position as 'head apologist'.
     
  26. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:3e4286d7c0][i:3e4286d7c0]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:3e4286d7c0]
    His picture is not working? Maybe he has resigned his position as 'head apologist'. [/quote:3e4286d7c0]

    are you making a joke?? or are you for real?

    and are we going to get back in to this topic about modern prophets or are we done with that?
     
  27. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:67605804c2]are you making a joke?? or are you for real?[/quote:67605804c2]

    joking...

    [quote:67605804c2]and are we going to get back in to this topic about modern prophets or are we done with that?[/quote:67605804c2]

    What do you want to talk about? Do you think continuing revelatory gifts can be disproved by the BIBLE?

    Rembrandt
     
  28. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    i do not think that they can be "proven" by the Bible, but i think that there are strong verses in favor of that point, namely that the sign gifts are done away with.

    p.s. what happen to Paul?

    [Edited on 5-20-2004 by johnny_redeemed]
     
  29. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:60438b3904][i:60438b3904]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:60438b3904]
    i do not think that they can be "proven" by the Bible, but i think that there are strong verses in favor of that point, namely that the sign gifts are done away with.

    p.s. what happen to Paul?

    [Edited on 5-20-2004 by johnny_redeemed] [/quote:60438b3904]

    good answer.

    I don't know where Paul is. This is very strange... Right after he got done answering my questions on epistemology he disappeared... Maybe he went to get a haircut (j/k Paul!)...

    Rembrandt
     
  30. johnny_redeemed

    johnny_redeemed Puritan Board Freshman

    what verses do you think are good at showing that the sign gifts are done away with?
     
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