More Eastern "Orthodox" Nonsense: Theophany Eve’s Blessing of the Water Ritual!

[Brian T]

So, yesterday was the Eve of Theophany, and during this service, the eastern "churches" perform a magick ritual in which a large cauldron of water is placed in the nave of the church (usually this is the same cauldron used to baptize infants and I’ve seen them as being around 30 to 40 gallons in capacity). At the conclusion of this service, this cauldron of water gets “blessed” by the priest with his magick hand that magickally infuses the water with God’s “uncreated divine energies”, giving it all sorts of magick powers. Then, the congregation lines up before the cauldron, holding as many empty bottles as they can get their hands on, and each individual congregant then approaches the cauldron one by one, performs some prostrations before the cauldron before proceeding to scoop up as much of the magick water as they can get into their bottles to take home with them so that they can have the magick water with them throughout the new year!

Let’s now consider some of the absurdities involved in this.

First, we have the idea of magick priests with their right hand containing magick-hand-me-down-powers through their “apostolic succession” that turns ordinary water into magick water with talismanic properties. In my few years in the eastern “church”, I heard all sorts of old wives’ tales about how this magick water did all sorts of good stuff for people in the church, everything from curing warts, rheumatoid arthritis, male pattern baldness, to making their rose bushes grow taller and prettier. So, of course they’re back at it this year to get this year’s freshly-brewed batch of magick water for more good stuff this year (which is why this service tends to have a higher-than-normal turnout),

Is it me or does this strike you as a one, two combo of selfishness and folk superstition?

But this is precisely what so much of eastern “orthodoxy” is.

Let’s also consider that, not only is it superstitious and selfish, it’s also so carnal. For a church that literally brags about how much more "spiritual and mystical" it is vis-a-vis the West, it sure does focus on the created and carnal in its practice: ordinary water gets turned into magick water by a priest and his magick hand with its hand-me-down magick powers!?! And then that magick water gets taken home for use throughout the year to cure one’s ailments or make rose bushes bloom better, and to ward off evil spirits hiding in the bathroom??

Wait, what??

Yes, they literally think this. They literally think that you can sprinkle a room in your house with this magick water to ward off “evil spirits.”

Consider this snippet from an email I received from my former priest that he sent out to his congregants this week:

Either we use holy water to ‘fill something with grace’ or ‘to prevent any evil spirit from hiding in a certain place’ such as our bathroom.

Wow…just wow.

So, if you have evil spirits hiding in your bathroom, the magick water that the magick priest created on Theophany Eve will ward them off.

Ultimately, this is one of those things you have to see firsthand in order to see just how pernicious eastern "orthodoxy" really is. When I see people grabbing as many plastic bottles as they can get their hands on, and then scooping up as much water as they can into their bottles to take home, not only does that strike me as backwards, superstitious nonsense, it is also just pure selfishness.

And what, my friends, is the real difference between the eastern "orthodox" priest performing this ritual....and a shaman performing a ritual to infuse some talisman with magickal juju powers to ward off evil spirits and cure sicknesses?

Is this anywhere near the Gospel? Is this even Christianity?

Or is this nothing more than backwards folk superstitions being passed off as “Christianity” and then used to further people’s own superstition and greed and getting them to trust in yet more material, carnal, created stuff to save them?

Eastern “orthodoxy” really is filled with all sorts of superstitious nonsense that diverts people away from worshipping the Creator and turning them towards idols, whether pictures and the dead body parts of saints, or magick water with talismanic properties to ward off evil spirits lurking in your bathroom.

 

[Rom]

Brother, just an encouragement - that many of us are blind to the particular evils of the EO as we have spent most of our timing combatting Rome. So, all of this is helpful as the EO continue to make inroads and snatch away those unsuspecting souls in our region. I know of two Ruling Elders in the PCA that apostatized to the EO. A former member of ours (granted, she only recently became Reformed before joining us) got married, left Texas - and we were grieved to see that they have been snatched away by the EO. Thank you for all of your insight. Very helpful.

 

[Brian T]

Brother, just an encouragement - that many of us are blind to the particular evils of the EO as we have spent most of our timing combatting Rome. So, all of this is helpful as the EO continue to make inroads and snatch away those unsuspecting souls in our region. I know of two Ruling Elders in the PCA that apostatized to the EO. A former member of ours (granted, she only recently became Reformed before joining us) got married, left Texas - and we were grieved to see that they have been snatched away by the EO. Thank you for all of your insight. Very helpful.

I appreciate the encouragement, thank you!

 

[chuckd]

Agree. Eastern Orthodoxy is all the rage among young evangelicals who are enticed by the ancient and mysterious as opposed to the shallow religious experience they grew up with. To me they are just religious "hipsters" who think they found something cool before it was cool.

I'll throw out that a way our churches can combat this trend is to not only read and study the Reformers and Puritans, but to reach back to the Church Fathers. You read Calvin's commentaries and he often cites Augustine and Chrysostom. We should do the same in sermons, Sunday school, Bible studies, book clubs, etc.

Their works, prayers, quotes, biographies, etc.

 

[Brian T]

Agree. Eastern Orthodoxy is all the rage among young evangelicals who are enticed by the ancient and mysterious as opposed to the shallow religious experience they grew up with. To me they are just religious "hipsters" who think they found something cool before it was cool.

I'll throw out that a way our churches can combat this trend is to not only read and study the Reformers and Puritans, but to reach back to the Church Fathers. You read Calvin's commentaries and he often cites Augustine and Chrysostom. We should do the same in sermons, Sunday school, Bible studies, book clubs, etc.

Their works, prayers, quotes, biographies, etc.

Excellent, and I agree 100%. Leaving the EO church and discovering the depth and breadth of the Reformed heritage was something I am eternally grateful for. And speaking of the Church Fathers, one of the reasons that led me out of the EO church was actually READING them, because once you do, you find out that they're not "eastern orthodox" after all! I know that sounds funny, but many EO's literally think that "the Church Fathers" believe everything they believe, because they've managed to pigeonhole them into some EO mold.

At the end of the day, the main point is like you said: many of these converts to EO really are looking for something new and trendy. Hey, they've got lots of candles, smells, bells, and priests and bishops who wear some really fancy outfits filled with gold and jewels! That's attractive to a lot of people, unfortunately.

 

[Brian T]

Agree. Eastern Orthodoxy is all the rage among young evangelicals who are enticed by the ancient and mysterious as opposed to the shallow religious experience they grew up with. To me they are just religious "hipsters" who think they found something cool before it was cool.

I'll throw out that a way our churches can combat this trend is to not only read and study the Reformers and Puritans, but to reach back to the Church Fathers. You read Calvin's commentaries and he often cites Augustine and Chrysostom. We should do the same in sermons, Sunday school, Bible studies, book clubs, etc.

Their works, prayers, quotes, biographies, etc.

One thing to add: thankfully, many EO parishes are bastions of ethno-nationalism and many of these American converts will never truly fit in there. Some will even show up for the first time and won't return because they feel cold-shouldered and completely out-of-place.

And the fact that the EO churches are organized along these ethnonationalist lines is also really undermining the EO church today, as there are now two major schisms in the EO church over the issue in Ukraine (Russia vs. Greek; Russia vs. Alexandria/African churches), and when 2025 rolls around, who knows how many EO churches will reunite with Rome, which will cause an even greater and deeper schism.

I actually know a few people who left the EO church for Rome over this ridiculousness in Ukraine, for what it's worth, because it finally dawned on them how ABSURD it is to have a pope in Moscow who is telling people they can't take communion in Greek or Alexandrian churches anymore, all because of worldly power politics in Ukraine.

 

[Claudiu]

One thing to add: thankfully, many EO parishes are bastions of ethno-nationalism and many of these American converts will never truly fit in there. Some will even show up for the first time and won't return because they feel cold-shouldered and completely out-of-place.

And the fact that the EO churches are organized along these ethnonationalist lines is also really undermining the EO church today, as there are now two major schisms in the EO church over the issue in Ukraine (Russia vs. Greek; Russia vs. Alexandria/African churches), and when 2025 rolls around, who knows how many EO churches will reunite with Rome, which will cause an even greater and deeper schism.

I actually know a few people who left the EO church for Rome over this ridiculousness in Ukraine, for what it's worth, because it finally dawned on them how ABSURD it is to have a pope in Moscow who is telling people they can't take communion in Greek or Alexandrian churches anymore, all because of worldly power politics in Ukraine.

Most pious ethno-Orthodox do not consider Americans converting to Orthodoxy as "truly Orthodox." They view it was evangelicals putting on Orthodox garb and prayer ropes who read a few books and are playing Orthodoxy. There is a lot to grasp to Orthodoxy that cannot just be read in a few books or experienced quickly. It takes years and years to really shape the "phronema." And the mind has to be rewired as the East vs. West mindset dichotomy has some validity to it.

The non-pious, just ethno-Orthodox see converts as joining their social club. The Greeks, Serbs, Russians, and Romanians may be the worst at it, with the Antiochians being the most friendly as so many of their churches have converts. But it's somewhat understandable for me that the ethnic folk are trying to preserve their identity and culture (that runs hundreds if not thousands of years deep) in a different land - a fight against the modern lose of identity where people don't really have an ethnic heritage and cultural practice. It's important for them, as it was and perhaps is for me, to speak the language or our ancestors and maintain some of the cultural practices.

 

[Brian T]

Most pious ethno-Orthodox do not consider Americans converting to Orthodoxy as "truly Orthodox." They view it was evangelicals putting on Orthodox garb and prayer ropes who read a few books and are playing Orthodoxy. There is a lot to grasp to Orthodoxy that cannot just be read in a few books or experienced quickly. It takes years and years to really shape the "phronema." And the mind has to be rewired as the East vs. West mindset dichotomy has some validity to it.

The non-pious, just ethno-Orthodox see converts as joining their social club. The Greeks, Serbs, Russians, and Romanians may be the worst at it, with the Antiochians being the most friendly as so many of their churches have converts. But it's somewhat understandable for me that the ethnic folk are trying to preserve their identity and culture (that runs hundreds if not thousands of years deep) in a different land - a fight against the modern lose of identity where people don't really have an ethnic heritage and cultural practice. It's important for them, as it was and perhaps is for me, to speak the language or our ancestors and maintain some of the cultural practices.

That definitely resonates with what I saw.

The Serbian church had deep roots in the Serbian community here in SW Ohio and had been around for more than a few generations. Up until 2020, it was pretty much purely Serbian, with nary a convert there (as opposed to the Russian church here, which had been getting a small, but steady stream of convertskiis for the past 5 years). But then, when Covid hit, all the other EO churches in the area shuttered their doors for a time and then enacted all sorts of changes that, for all intents and purposes, did betray the way the liturgy is supposed to be performed. This sent a lot of American converts who were attending the Russian church here to that Serbian church. The Serbian priest, to his credit, was like "nah I am not doing any of that CDC stuff! I am performing the liturgy and won't change a thing!" so all the American convertskiis ended up over at the Serbian church for a time.

Unfortunately, many of the Serbs then stopped going because of all the American converts now flooding the church that they had been going to for years, if not decades. It was their church, and many resented this new situation. And, like you said, I can understand that: that Serbian church was a little bastion of Serbia where the local Serbs could get together once a week with people of their own kind and escape America for a few hours. And then, all of a sudden, all of these Americans with nary a drop of Serbian or Slavic blood are now coming here?!?!

 

[Claudiu]

Agree. Eastern Orthodoxy is all the rage among young evangelicals who are enticed by the ancient and mysterious as opposed to the shallow religious experience they grew up with. To me they are just religious "hipsters" who think they found something cool before it was cool.

I'll throw out that a way our churches can combat this trend is to not only read and study the Reformers and Puritans, but to reach back to the Church Fathers. You read Calvin's commentaries and he often cites Augustine and Chrysostom. We should do the same in sermons, Sunday school, Bible studies, book clubs, etc.

Their works, prayers, quotes, biographies, etc.

Many of the converts are "religious hipsters" looking for the next cool thing. But I ran into many well-meaning Christians who were genuinely looking for truth and thought they found it in the EO Church.

For many, it's the complete package:

• they see a thread from Christ, the apostles, church fathers, to today maintained in the EO Church in terms of history, theology, and church practice;
• all the senses are activated: the eyes through the drama of the liturgy (including icons, candles, vestments, etc.), the ears through the Byzantine or more Westernized Russian chant, the nose through the incense, and the mouth through the eucharist, and the whole body will bow or prostrate;
• there is a "spirituality" they find missing in the modern West: in things like long confessions (not your typical Roman Catholic) made to your priest or spiritual father; there are monasteries and monastics; there is the church calendar with its fasts and feasts; there are the morning and evening daily prayers
• there is a lot more to say and include, but in short, many of these converts can be well-meaning and think the EO has their answers.

With each of the above, I can give reasons why the EO are wrong, and why I embraced biblical, Reformed Christianity. I think the Reformed provide a unique answer to both the EO and modern evangelicals. Anglicans may claim the middle way, but I honestly think the Reformed provide a better one! I'll say more later.

 

[Brian T]

Many of the converts are "religious hipsters" looking for the next cool thing. But I ran into many well-meaning Christians who were genuinely looking for truth and thought they found it in the EO Church.

For many, it's the complete package:

• they see a thread from Christ, the apostles, church fathers, to today maintained in the EO Church in terms of history, theology, and church practice;
• all the senses are activated: the eyes through the drama of the liturgy (including icons, candles, vestments, etc.), the ears through the Byzantine or more Westernized Russian chant, the nose through the incense, and the mouth through the eucharist, and the whole body will bow or prostrate;
• there is a "spirituality" they find missing in the modern West: in things like long confessions (not your typical Roman Catholic) made to your priest or spiritual father; there are monasteries and monastics; there is the church calendar with its fasts and feasts; there are the morning and evening daily prayers
• there is a lot more to say and include, but in short, many of these converts can be well-meaning and think the EO has their answers.

With each of the above, I can give reasons why the EO are wrong, and why I embraced biblical, Reformed Christianity. I think the Reformed provide a unique answer to both the EO and modern evangelicals. Anglicans may claim the middle way, but I honestly think the Reformed provide a better one! I'll say more later.

^ outstanding post. Very succinct and well put.

 

[Jake]

Thank you for your continued posts on this topic. Have you considered a blog to have a more outward witness against those of us who are not more committedly Reformed? I want to keep following regardless.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

I have to thank you also. As often as we Reformed people criticize Rome, most of those are even more true of EO. Sure, EO has no infallible pope or indulgence problem, but they’re very works centered, deny original sin and inherited guilt, seem to minimize the atonement, are really into mysticism and ritual, and are just as strong a promoter of capital-T tradition as Rome ever was.

 

[Brian T]

Thank you for your continued posts on this topic. Have you considered a blog to have a more outward witness against those of us who are not more committedly Reformed? I want to keep following regardless.

You're welcome. I am glad that some here are finding these posts worthy of consideration.

I have indeed been toying with the idea of a blog, maybe even a podcast, to discuss all the things that I experienced while I was in EO and why I ended up leaving for the Reformed tradition.

There's a need for it. This really occurred to me last Sunday at my church. An elderly couple approached me, asked me if I was Brian, then told me that they were both extremely grateful for what I did for their grandson. Initially I had no idea what they were talking about!! Turns out that a couple weeks prior during our church's Saturday morning Bible study, their 18-year old grandson talked to me about EO. He heard me mention something about it and that I used to be EO during the class, and afterwards he spent about 20 minutes with me asking me all sorts of questions about my time in EO.

Unbeknownst to me at the time: he had recently informed the elders and the pastor of our church that he was going to leave it for EO. After spending those 20 minutes with me, he changed his mind, called the pastor and the elders that afternoon, and informed them that he was no longer interested in EO and now wants to stay in our church.

I think as more and more people discover what's really in the EO church, beneath all the alluring smells, bells, and (false) historical claims of being the ONE TRUE CHURCH, more and more people will be turned off by it.

God willing!

 

[Brian T]

I have to thank you also. As often as we Reformed people criticize Rome, most of those are even more true of EO. Sure, EO has no infallible pope or indulgence problem, but they’re very works centered, deny original sin and inherited guilt, seem to minimize the atonement, are really into mysticism and ritual, and are just as strong a promoter of capital-T tradition as Rome ever was.

Absolutely correct! And I tend to think that EO is actually much worse than Rome on a lot of things. Not only are they really into the big-T tradition like Rome, their "Traditions" include all sorts of outright occult pagan stuff by "saints" like Gregory Palamas, whose heretical views on uncreated energies and hesychasm, were dogmatized in the 14th century. And then there are also things like the fevered visions of 9th century desert monks of the "Toll Houses", which is the EO equivalent of Purgatory, but far worse (and which actually comes from the Tibetan Book of the Dead).

I would also argue that their Mariolatry is also worse (two words: "Panagia Bread", where there is a feast where they literally turn Mary into a loaf of bread!); and their works-based stuff is more pernicious because not only is there all the typical works-based fasting and penance and confession to a priest that Rome has, there are also additional occult-mystical works-based elements that are quite common in EO, such as "hesychasm" where EO's think that by combining prayer with breathing exercises and body postures, they will acquire the "uncreated light of the Transfiguration!" Unbeknownst to them, their hesychasm is practically identical to pranayama (energizing breath exercises) found in Yoga. Oh yeah, and it's also ultimately heretical pagan self-worship. And this, along with their doctrine of the Toll Houses, shows the outright adoption by the EO church of practices and beliefs from Eastern occult pagan traditions.

At least Rome, undoubtedly due to their institutional centralization, oversight, and geographical location (since a lot of the goofy pagan occult stuff was always far more prevalent in the East than the West to begn with) was able to keep some of these goofy pagan superstitions and occult practices out of their church vis-a-vis the East.

 

[chuckd]

Many of the converts are "religious hipsters" looking for the next cool thing. But I ran into many well-meaning Christians who were genuinely looking for truth and thought they found it in the EO Church.

For many, it's the complete package:

• they see a thread from Christ, the apostles, church fathers, to today maintained in the EO Church in terms of history, theology, and church practice;
• all the senses are activated: the eyes through the drama of the liturgy (including icons, candles, vestments, etc.), the ears through the Byzantine or more Westernized Russian chant, the nose through the incense, and the mouth through the eucharist, and the whole body will bow or prostrate;
• there is a "spirituality" they find missing in the modern West: in things like long confessions (not your typical Roman Catholic) made to your priest or spiritual father; there are monasteries and monastics; there is the church calendar with its fasts and feasts; there are the morning and evening daily prayers
• there is a lot more to say and include, but in short, many of these converts can be well-meaning and think the EO has their answers.

With each of the above, I can give reasons why the EO are wrong, and why I embraced biblical, Reformed Christianity. I think the Reformed provide a unique answer to both the EO and modern evangelicals. Anglicans may claim the middle way, but I honestly think the Reformed provide a better one! I'll say more later.

Yes, I didn't mean to paint all EO converts as hipsters. Though those who are genuinely looking for truth and depth in religion should be able to find it in our churches. That's why I suggested incorporating the church fathers in our sermons, Sunday schools, and Bible studies. Hipster or not, young evangelicals gravitate toward historical things - it is more "real" to them and has more depth.

As far as the spirituality you mentioned, we could also learn a thing or two here as well from their theory on "praxis." Prayers from The Valley of Vision or other historical confessions can help inform our own prayers and confessions.

We don't have a church calendar, but we can encourage fasting when someone is especially seeking the Lord instead of just prayer.

Taking the Lord's Supper weekly with our understanding of the real presence. Taking monthly communion was hard for a recent Catholic convert at our church.

Standing for the reading of the holy scriptures, kneeling during prayers, the minister wearing a Geneva gown or clerical collar. Just a few things in the worship setting that seems to have been lost in the last 50 years.

Dare I say we engage in art, music, and architecture? Make a half decent attempt to make our church buildings look like churches?

 

[Brian T]

Yes, I didn't mean to paint all EO converts as hipsters. Though those who are genuinely looking for truth and depth in religion should be able to find it in our churches. That's why I suggested incorporating the church fathers in our sermons, Sunday schools, and Bible studies. Hipster or not, young evangelicals gravitate toward historical things - it is more "real" to them and has more depth.

As far as the spirituality you mentioned, we could also learn a thing or two here as well from their theory on "praxis." Prayers from The Valley of Vision or other historical confessions can help inform our own prayers and confessions.

We don't have a church calendar, but we can encourage fasting when someone is especially seeking the Lord instead of just prayer.

Taking the Lord's Supper weekly with our understanding of the real presence. Taking monthly communion was hard for a recent Catholic convert at our church.

Standing for the reading of the holy scriptures, kneeling during prayers, the minister wearing a Geneva gown or clerical collar. Just a few things in the worship setting that seems to have been lost in the last 50 years.

Dare I say we engage in art, music, and architecture? Make a half decent attempt to make our church buildings look like churches?

If I were to reduce the draw of EO for many today to two things, they'd be:

1) historical claims of being the ONE TRUE CHURCH that goes all the way back to 33 A.D.
2) the seeming gravitas of their liturgy.

#1 is a particular Achilles' heel for them, because anyone who actually does bother to delve into Church history, will see that none of the things they claim to have been around throughout the entire Church since 33 A.D. (iconophilia, sacerdotalism, Mariolatry, worshipping of relics, etc.) really were. Rather than being a product of the 1st century as they claim, the EO church today is more a product of what the eastern churches were doing around the turn of the first millennium into the second.

#2 is a tougher nut to crack. And a common technique for them is to contrast the gravitas of their liturgy with some "Crossroads Church" in the 'burbs and claim that the latter is typical worship in Reformation-heritage churches.

 

[Brian T]

Yes, I didn't mean to paint all EO converts as hipsters. Though those who are genuinely looking for truth and depth in religion should be able to find it in our churches. That's why I suggested incorporating the church fathers in our sermons, Sunday schools, and Bible studies. Hipster or not, young evangelicals gravitate toward historical things - it is more "real" to them and has more depth.

As far as the spirituality you mentioned, we could also learn a thing or two here as well from their theory on "praxis." Prayers from The Valley of Vision or other historical confessions can help inform our own prayers and confessions.

We don't have a church calendar, but we can encourage fasting when someone is especially seeking the Lord instead of just prayer.

Taking the Lord's Supper weekly with our understanding of the real presence. Taking monthly communion was hard for a recent Catholic convert at our church.

Standing for the reading of the holy scriptures, kneeling during prayers, the minister wearing a Geneva gown or clerical collar. Just a few things in the worship setting that seems to have been lost in the last 50 years.

Dare I say we engage in art, music, and architecture? Make a half decent attempt to make our church buildings look like churches?

BTW, I still have my Orthodox Prayer Book. I also have the Valley of Vision. I should do a compare/contrast sometime. But one thing that leaps out immediately is how mechanical the former is: you have to do a certain set of prayers in the morning, afternoon, and evening on a particular day of the week. It's set in stone and it cannot help but become a very mechanical procedure. In fact, some of my former EO acquaintances even complained that it all seemed very mechanical to them:

"Um, let's see....it's Thursday morning....go to page 87 and do these 15 prayers." etc. etc. etc.

And, oh yeah, in every single set of those prayers, there are at least a few that are devoted directly to Mary. As if prayers that say "Oh Theotokos save us!" are bad enough, other prayers literally say: "by thine intercessions deliver our souls from death!" Some even plead for her to "deliver us from Tartarus!"

Pretty sure Mary can do NONE of those things, but she is literally a co-mediatrix and co-redemptress in all these prayers to her.

 

[Phil D.]

Dare I say we engage in art, music, and architecture?

Or perhaps rather than attempting to gain favor by meeting people half-way, so to speak, in these things, make sure that we explain well the reason Reformed worship has historically been somewhat minimalist in these externals is in order to place focus on the Word/Gospel preached. Sort of like we see in the New Testament.

 

[Brian T]

Or perhaps rather than attempting to gain favor by meeting people half-way, so to speak, in these things, make sure that we explain well the reason Reformed worship has historically been somewhat minimalist in these externals is in order to place focus on the Word/Gospel preached. Sort of like we see in the New Testament.

In some of the conversations I've had with the EO's I left behind, when they ask me why I left, my quick-and-easy answer is almost always "because the EO are all about externals!" When I point out to them that these externals, by their own admissions, end up becoming their reason for showing up on Sunday morning...they just don't want to admit how problematic that is. And when I explain to them how hearing the Gospel PREACHED is how people come to Christ and that THIS is supposed to be point of our Sunday services, again, they just don't get it. They're blind to it, and they've been blinded precisely by all these externals: the candles, icons, incense, shiny icons and priest vestments. That stuff literally sucks them in and then blinds them.

 

[retroGRAD3]

In some of the conversations I've had with the EO's I left behind, when they ask me why I left, my quick-and-easy answer is almost always "because the EO are all about externals!" When I point out to them that these externals, by their own admissions, end up becoming their reason for showing up on Sunday morning...they just don't want to admit how problematic that is. And when I explain to them how hearing the Gospel PREACHED is how people come to Christ and that THIS is supposed to be point of our Sunday services, again, they just don't get it. They're blind to it, and they've been blinded precisely by all these externals: the candles, icons, incense, shiny icons and priest vestments. That stuff literally sucks them in and then blinds them.

This is the saddest part of all because it is precisely this point that not understanding is the thing that ends you up in hell. In the past I have asked EO's, what is the gospel, how are men saved? I quote scripture to them that provides this information in exact detail. I was given the response "you just don't get it".

 

[Zach]

BTW, I still have my Orthodox Prayer Book. I also have the Valley of Vision. I should do a compare/contrast sometime. But one thing that leaps out immediately is how mechanical the former is: you have to do a certain set of prayers in the morning, afternoon, and evening on a particular day of the week. It's set in stone and it cannot help but become a very mechanical procedure. In fact, some of my former EO acquaintances even complained that it all seemed very mechanical to them:

"Um, let's see....it's Thursday morning....go to page 87 and do these 15 prayers." etc. etc. etc.

And, oh yeah, in every single set of those prayers, there are at least a few that are devoted directly to Mary. As if prayers that say "Oh Theotokos save us!" are bad enough, other prayers literally say: "by thine intercessions deliver our souls from death!" Some even plead for her to "deliver us from Tartarus!"

Pretty sure Mary can do NONE of those things, but she is literally a co-mediatrix and co-redemptress in all these prayers to her.

I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the content Orthodox prayer books. Which do you have? I really like having a variety of prayer books to look at to help inform and shape my personal and pastoral prayers so that they avoid becoming "stale" and my impression of the Orthodox prayer book that I have is that some of the prayers are very rich in praise and confession and petition but then it's just so jarring to come across praise of or invocation of the theotokos or a guardian angel immediately following.

The same was true of the one time I attended an Orthodox Matins service. The chanting of the Psalms was beautiful and many of the prayers were quite rich. The amount of Scripture heard by the congregation seemed to be way more than a typical Protestant and Reformed service. But then there would be prayers to the the theotokos or to angels and archangels and the beauty of it would come crashing down...not to mention the fact that the Priest almost ran me over the with censor because I didn't know what was happening or where he was going!

 

[chuckd]

Or perhaps rather than attempting to gain favor by meeting people half-way, so to speak, in these things, make sure that we explain well the reason Reformed worship has historically been somewhat minimalist in these externals is in order to place focus on the Word/Gospel preached. Sort of like we see in the New Testament.

The Reformed have nothing to say or contribute to art, music, or architecture? Leave those things to heathen and apostates? I'm not saying they should be elements of worship, but certainly we have a perspective on them.

 

[Brian T]

I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the content Orthodox prayer books. Which do you have? I really like having a variety of prayer books to look at to help inform and shape my personal and pastoral prayers so that they avoid becoming "stale" and my impression of the Orthodox prayer book that I have is that some of the prayers are very rich in praise and confession and petition but then it's just so jarring to come across praise of or invocation of the theotokos or a guardian angel immediately following.

The same was true of the one time I attended an Orthodox Matins service. The chanting of the Psalms was beautiful and many of the prayers were quite rich. The amount of Scripture heard by the congregation seemed to be way more than a typical Protestant and Reformed service. But then there would be prayers to the the theotokos or to angels and archangels and the beauty of it would come crashing down...not to mention the fact that the Priest almost ran me over the with censor because I didn't know what was happening or where he was going!

You're definitely correct that there are many very wonderful prayers in the Orthodox Prayer Book, and some of the really good ones were written by John Chrysostom. But, like you said, some pretty good prayers overall, but then, suddenly, up pops a prayer to Mary asking her to save you from hell! Ugh!

I don't recall the Mary stuff being in the prayers that John Chrysostom composed. However, I do recall that John Damascus has some prayers in there that do contain some Mary and guardian angel stuff in them, which, for me at least, shows the Mary stuff starting to come in between the 4th century when Chrysostom is writing, and the 7th when the Damascene is composing his prayers.

 

[Brian T]

This is the saddest part of all because it is precisely this point that not understanding is the thing that ends you up in hell. In the past I have asked EO's, what is the gospel, how are men saved? I quote scripture to them that provides this information in exact detail. I was given the response "you just don't get it".

I don't know if you've had the pleasure (sarcasm) of interacting with the likes of Jay Dyer and Michael Witcoff and some of the other EO "apologists" out on YouTube. You can quote Scripture left and right to these guys, and they will tell you you're a moron (literally!)

There's a real smug arrogance with these guys.

This is literally a paraphrase of a conversation I had recently with one of them:

EO apologist; you can't understand ANYTHING about the Bible unless you know the superior eastern orthodox theology concerning the uncreated energies!! So don't tell me what the Bible says!!!

Me: What do these "uncreated energies have to do with anything!??!"

EO apologist: they're all over the New Testament!! Paul uses the word energeia eight times in his epistles!!!

Me: HUH!?!?

EO apologist: SEE! You're a retard!!

Yes, some of those guys really are that bad.

 

[retroGRAD3]

I don't know if you've had the pleasure (sarcasm) of interacting with the likes of Jay Dyer and Michael Witcoff and some of the other EO "apologists" out on YouTube. You can quote Scripture left and right to these guys, and they will tell you you're a moron (literally!)

There's a real smug arrogance with these guys.

This is literally a paraphrase of a conversation I had recently with one of them:

EO apologist; you can't understand ANYTHING about the Bible unless you know the superior eastern orthodox theology concerning the uncreated energies!! So don't tell me what the Bible says!!!

Me: What do these "uncreated energies have to do with anything!??!"

EO apologist: they're all over the New Testament!! Paul uses the word energeia eight times in his epistles!!!

Me: HUH!?!?

EO apologist: SEE! You're a retard!!

Yes, some of those guys really are that bad.

I have indeed seen/heard Jay Dyer. He is truly an angry and prideful man. Not to mention he has joined and apostatized from every branch of groups that call themselves Christians. There was even a point where he considered becoming Jewish if I am not mistaken. To be honest, with Dyer and how he conducts himself, it is a surprise to me that anyone (even other EOs) consider him a good witness for EO or even "Christianity" in general.

 

[RamistThomist]

I have indeed seen/heard Jay Dyer. He is truly an angry and prideful man. Not to mention he has joined and apostatized from every branch of groups that call themselves Christians. There was even a point where he considered becoming Jewish if I am not mistaken. To be honest, with Dyer and how he conducts himself, it is a surprise to me that anyone (even other EOs) consider him a good witness for EO or even "Christianity" in general.

Oh boy. I've known him since 2008. I've seen him go from Rome to EO to Rabbinic Judaism back to EO. He blocked me on twitter because I wouldn't go on his discord to get yelled at by his 14 year old followers. He stole all his ideas from Perry Robinson (who took them from Joseph Farrell). Cradle EOs and Boomer American Converts don't like Jay, to their credit.

I have some Roman Catholic friends who have received close to death threats from Jay's followers (although not from Jay).

On debates and dialogue

I’m fairly good on not blogging about the latest blow up on social media. This post isn’t important in the grand scheme, though it may serve as the “Suburban Agrarian Manifesto.&…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

 

[RamistThomist]

EO apologist: SEE! You're a retard!!

Yep. That's it in a nutshell. They also have anime avatars on twitter.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Oh boy. I've known him since 2008. I've seen him go from Rome to EO to Rabbinic Judaism back to EO. He blocked me on twitter because I wouldn't go on his discord to get yelled at by his 14 year old followers. He stole all his ideas from Perry Robinson (who took them from Joseph Farrell). Cradle EOs and Boomer American Converts don't like Jay, to their credit.

I have some Roman Catholic friends who have received close to death threats from Jay's followers (although not from Jay).

On debates and dialogue

I’m fairly good on not blogging about the latest blow up on social media. This post isn’t important in the grand scheme, though it may serve as the “Suburban Agrarian Manifesto.&…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

I didn't realize he actually did become Jewish for a while, good grief. I read your threads on this board that dealt with your interactions with him, very childish on his end for sure.

 

[Brian T]

Oh boy. I've known him since 2008. I've seen him go from Rome to EO to Rabbinic Judaism back to EO. He blocked me on twitter because I wouldn't go on his discord to get yelled at by his 14 year old followers. He stole all his ideas from Perry Robinson (who took them from Joseph Farrell). Cradle EOs and Boomer American Converts don't like Jay, to their credit.

I have some Roman Catholic friends who have received close to death threats from Jay's followers (although not from Jay).

On debates and dialogue

I’m fairly good on not blogging about the latest blow up on social media. This post isn’t important in the grand scheme, though it may serve as the “Suburban Agrarian Manifesto.&…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

Yeah, his followers are something to behold. The younger dudes in the Russian parish I used to go to were really into him. Talk about a cultish following.

I triggered Jay once when I said that he would eventually follow Jospeh P Farrell right out of the eastern church, leaving it behind like all the other things he tried out. His followers apparently were completely unaware that Farrell was no longer "orthodox."

Speaking of which, isn't Farrell some gnostic dude pushing theories about Nazi UFOs in Antarctica or something??? I could see Jay heading in that direction from where he is now.

 

[RamistThomist]

I didn't realize he actually did become Jewish for a while, good grief. I read your threads on this board that dealt with your interactions with him, very childish on his end for sure.

He didn't "officially" become Jewish. He studied under a rabbi and started writing Jewish critiques of Christianity.