More Presbyterians or More reformed Baptists?

Are there More Presbyterians or are there more Reformed Baptists in the world today?

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Gwallard

Gwallard

Puritan Board Freshman
This is just a fun poll I thought I would bring out when a 1689 Federalist friend and I were having a discussion, and I pulled out "I only hear from you prejudice against a historically marginalized group known as Presbyterians." But we were unable to decide who had the better argument because he claimed that he was a Reformed Baptist, and therefore a more marginalized group.

So, in short - that we might decide who the winner is (/s) - do you believe there are more Presbyterians in the world today, or more Reformed Baptists and what would be your justification? Or, are there any statistics you might bring to bear?

I am - of course - only including Conservative, Biblical Presbyterians. The "PC"USA is neither a church nor Presbyterian.
 
Curious how narrowly we are defining reformed baptists-- all who use the label, only those who personally hold the 1689, or only those in 1689 confessing churches?
 
Blood-Bought Pilgrim said:
Curious how narrowly we are defining reformed baptists-- all who use the label, only those who personally hold the 1689, or only those in 1689 confessing churches?
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Some bloggers have taken it upon themselves to declare that no credobaptists of any stripe can be called "reformed" - confessional or not.

This is a good question though. Lots of Baptist denominations call themselves "reformed" but they only mean they affirm 5 Solas, "TULIP", or both.

In every other way, they are way off the 1689 in: covenant theology, law/gospel, eschatology, and ecclesiology. (Maybe more depending on the individual denomination).
 
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In terms of weighing in, if we are going with the broadest definition I would certainly say there are more Reformed Baptists, but if we are speaking only of those in churches which actually hold the 1689 as a church confession, there are probably more Presbyterians. Many baptists are "reformedish", and a good number personally hold to the 1689, but there are very few churches it seems which actually hold the 1689.
 
If we are talking confessional RBs, I voted way more Presbyterians. I don’t know of any large confessional RB churches congregant wise and the number of churches across America is fairly small.
 
If you trust AI at all....

According to ChatGPT, there are ~20,000 Calvinistic Baptist churches in the USA, though many are dispensational or NCT.

There are ~6-800 churches that confess the 1689

There are ~3,300 Conservative presbyterian churches.

So it depends on if you're willing to call McArthur "reformed" or not.

In the whole world, the numbers are (respectively) ~ 30k, 12k, 1k
 
Any way you slice it there are far more Presbyterians "in the world today."

If we're going real tight... while there are many many Calvinistically inclined Baptist/baptist/free church congregations... there are remarkably few who are formally congregationally (or even personally!) committed to the 1689LBC. Presbyterians win. But if we broaden it out to include all those Calvinistically inclined churches among the RBs... then to be fair (since mere inclination to Calvinism stretches the concept of being Reformed pretty far) we need to broaden out "Presbyterian" to include the PCUSA and others since "presbyterian" is technically a form of government not a system of doctrine... and then again, Presbyterians win.

So either way, Presbyterians win.
 
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Apparently, the continental Reformed "do not exist." Or are they to be lumped in with Presbyterians?
 
SolaScriptura said:
there are remarkably few who are formally congregationally (or even personally!) committed to the 1689LBC.
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9l200h.jpg
 
SolaScriptura said:
you should just stop resisting... we're not *keeping* you out... we warmly invite you to join us and enter the winners' circle!
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Hmmm... this does seem familiar reasoning among some folks I've known who've gone over to the darkry side... I rather take consolation in ...narrow is the way...and few there be who find it... :p
 
I say presbyterians, although if you changed "reformed baptist" to "calvinistic baptist", I might be a little less sure. I think reformed baptists are confessional, but I think there are many more calvinistic baptists than there are confessional baptists.
 
If you define "Reformed" to mean biblically faithful (not theologically liberal) and generally Calvinistic, and if you look only at North America, I think Baptists may be more numerous. Calvinism has seen strong growth among faithful Baptists in the US and Canada.

But if you require official confessional adherence, or a commitment to covenant theology, or if you include Reformed churches that have gone liberal, the Presbyterians will far outnumber the Baptists.
 
Six years ago, I had never even HEARD of Reformed Baptists.
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SolaScriptura said:
Any way you slice it there are far more Presbyterians "in the world today."

If we're going real tight... while there are many many Calvinistically inclined Baptist/baptist/free church congregations... there are remarkably few who are formally congregationally (or even personally!) committed to the 1689LBC. Presbyterians win. But if we broaden it out to include all those Calvinistically inclined churches among the RBs... then to be fair (since mere inclination to Calvinism stretches the concept of being Reformed pretty far) we need to broaden out "Presbyterian" to include the PCUSA and others since "presbyterian" is technically a form of government not a system of doctrine... and then again, Presbyterians win.

So either way, Presbyterians win.
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Maybe you guys should rebrand as "Robertsian" for Robert's Rules of Order? Anything to better distinguish from the PCUSA heretics. I'm pretty sure their parliamentary procedure is simply: whoever has the most "oppressed groups" intersectionality points controls the mic.
 
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Wait, I am a reformed Baptist that attends a presbyterian church, do I count as both ? lol.

I do not ascribed to infant baptism and different modes of baptism ei sprinkling, etc. and the WCF (though I read and study the WCF)

I believe in full immersion baptism (when possible) and I confess the 1689 as quoted in my quotes.

I am covenantal

Henceforth I am a Reformed Baptist.
 
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Phil D. said:
Absolutely. If you practice immersion you definitely want to believe in emersion as well...
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Yeah, I understand that in some situations you cant, like in jail, China, someone's death bed, so other modes are fine, but when you can be fully emerged I believe that is the correct way to be baptized.
 
SeamusDelion said:
Yeah, I understand that in some situations you cant, like in jail, China, someone's death bed, so other modes are fine, but when you can be fully emerged I believe that is the correct way to be baptized.
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I think you're missing the point.

"Immersion" - Plunging the whole body into water.

"Emersion" - The act of coming out of the water.
 
I think a lot of churches are adopting the Reformed Baptist moniker and even the confession without really knowing what that means--it's just the cool thing to do right now. Others are going after the 9Marks juggernaut as well without realizing that they're two different things.
It's good that they want to follow after better things theologically, but the influx of late adopters who don't fully understand what being confessional is is diluting the pool.
 
Ben Zartman said:
I think a lot of churches are adopting the Reformed Baptist moniker and even the confession without really knowing what that means--it's just the cool thing to do right now. Others are going after the 9Marks juggernaut as well without realizing that they're two different things.
It's good that they want to follow after better things theologically, but the influx of late adopters who don't fully understand what being confessional is is diluting the pool.
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When I began my journey towards confessionalism, I too did not know completely what it meant. I began with the 5 Solas, pressed on through the doctrines of grace, read Calvin's institutes, struggled through covenant theology, and continually grew in my love and appreciation for LBCF and other confessions/catechism. Let us be patient with others and humble in our hearts, recognizing that the our Loving Father is the Lord of the Harvest, and he will see His own work done in His perfect timing. Remember, all who labor in the Father's field will receive the same wage. Some are called early, some are called late. But the Lord is the one who provides the increase. :)

Psalm 65:10-11
"You water its furrows abundantly,
settling its ridges,
softening it with showers,
and blessing its growth.
You crown the year with your bounty;
your wagon tracks overflow with abundance."
 
On the one hand, I think it can be easier to feel like reformed baptists are larger, as they tend to have a much larger online presence, in my opinion, and can be sometime too-widely defined (John MacArthur calling himself reformed Baptist). But I think that in general, there’s more Presbyterians and continental reformed than reformed baptists. In my city, there are a decent amount of Presbyterian churches (even a few moderate mainlines), but very few reformed baptist. It’s hard in part because Presbyterianism is easier to track, if a church is in NAPARC or even dare-I-say EPC or CRC you can safely assume that they are properly reformed. That’s just not the case with the SBC or non-denominational churches. Even within those camps, there can be confusion, do you call someone reformed if they’re dispensational but like the 5 points? New covenantal? Progressive covenantal? Most stats for baptists would probably be self-identification, which for reasons I just mentioned is messy.
TLDR; I think the internet (at least what the algorithm shows me) is more dominated by reformed baptists, but there’s currently more Presbyterian/continental reformed
 
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