More Presbyterians or More reformed Baptists?

[No Other Name]

do you call someone reformed if they’re dispensational but like the 5 points? New covenantal? Progressive covenantal?

No.

But I see your point. The ones I know of around here gladly use the title Reformed. Fred Zaspel himself (a primary architect of NCT) has on his website that his church affirms 1689. How is that even possible? With exception? Those exceptions are so numerous, it makes a 1689'er like myself have fewer exceptions with the WCF than he does with 1689.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

So, we counting the PCUSA in this? What about the EPC or ECO? I mean, those are Presbyterians.

 

[Ploutos]

So, we counting the PCUSA in this? What about the EPC or ECO? I mean, those are Presbyterians.

Let's be serious. The PCUSA is Presbyterian in the same sense that Ahab was a member of the covenant. They are Presbyterian in the most meaningless, deconstructed, and context-abstracted sense of the word. For starters, "presbyterian" implies church, which raises the question of how one can be presbyterian when one is not a real church.

Given that this is PuritanBoard, the criterion should be confessionally Reformed for both Presbyterians and Baptists, though it would need to be determined what level of confessional adherence counts. On my part, in the USA, I would count the PCA, OPC, ARP, RPCNA, URC, and the smaller microdenoms to the right of that. I don't know enough about the Bible Presbyterians. Some EPC churches would count but since it's difficult to quantify that, I personally wouldn't include the EPC. I know that within the PCA there are many churches that are not seriously confessional, but since the denomination as a whole is confessional and taking steps to live that out, I would count it in.

I don't know the Baptist world well enough to know how one quantifies this in a Baptist context. Seems like no one else here does, either.

 

[No Other Name]

Seems like no one else here does, either.

lol yeah we do.

Don't let our denunciation of self-proclaimed "Reformed" Baptists confuse you as if we are unsure of ourselves as well.

 

[Ploutos]

lol yeah we do.

Don't let our denunciation of self-proclaimed "Reformed" Baptists confuse you as if we are unsure of ourselves as well.

What I mainly meant was that there seems to be some uncertainty as to how to discern how many Reformed Baptists there are, according to standards that would be acceptable to the Reformed Baptists in this board. It was not meant in any pejorative sense, but I certainly may have misread the thread.

 

[paranymph]

What I mainly meant was that there seems to be some uncertainty as to how to discern how many Reformed Baptists there are, according to standards that would be acceptable to the Reformed Baptists in this board. It was not meant in any pejorative sense, but I certainly may have misread the thread.

We can say, at least, that a Reformed Baptist is one who is a member of a confessional church holding to the 2LBC.

 

[LightBringer]

I don't have any strong opinions about this.

 

[B.L.]

I voted more Reformed Baptists than Presbyterians and realized afterwards that I misread the question.
I thought it was narrowly asking about the PCA.

 

[Gwallard]

What I'm hearing is that Presbyterians are more organized and united (who would have thought, governmentally!), and therefore easier to count; Baptists are much harder to quantify. I was hoping there would be something statistical out there! But thank you all for your help - I'm honestly surprised that PB thinks there are more Presbyterians. Where I'm at, Reformed Baptists far far outweigh the Presbyterians in number.

This map is over 5 years old, but it includes confessional Baptist congregations, for what it's worth.

How To Find A Confessional Presbyterian Or Reformed Congregation - The Heidelblog

Resources How To Subscribe To Heidelmedia How to support Heidelmedia: use the donate button below The HB Resource Page Heidelmedia Resources Another Way To Find A Confessional Reformed Church In North America When Confessional P & R Congregations Do Not Exist Or Disappoint

heidelblog.net

Is there an alliance like NAPARC for Calvinistic/Reformed Baptists?

I don't know if the requirements of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, "affirmation of the Cambridge Declaration and an evangelical creed or confession" would be a good standard.

https://alliancenet.org/churches/

 

[John Nyberg]

There is really nothing like NAPARC for Baptists but there is the Reformed Baptist network https://reformedbaptistnetwork.com/

 

[No Other Name]

What I'm hearing is that Presbyterians are more organized and united (who would have thought, governmentally!), and therefore easier to count; Baptists are much harder to quantify. I was hoping there would be something statistical out there! But thank you all for your help - I'm honestly surprised that PB thinks there are more Presbyterians. Where I'm at, Reformed Baptists far far outweigh the Presbyterians in number.

This map is over 5 years old, but it includes confessional Baptist congregations, for what it's worth.

How To Find A Confessional Presbyterian Or Reformed Congregation - The Heidelblog

Resources How To Subscribe To Heidelmedia How to support Heidelmedia: use the donate button below The HB Resource Page Heidelmedia Resources Another Way To Find A Confessional Reformed Church In North America When Confessional P & R Congregations Do Not Exist Or Disappoint

heidelblog.net

Is there an alliance like NAPARC for Calvinistic/Reformed Baptists?

I don't know if the requirements of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, "affirmation of the Cambridge Declaration and an evangelical creed or confession" would be a good standard.

https://alliancenet.org/churches/

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is a fine standard. In PA, there are a couple of our BFC churches listed there (and likely mine at some point in the near future). We affirm 1689, but there are dozens more BFC churches in PA than just these, yet most of them are simply Calvinistic (and NCT/progressive in covenant theology) and would never sign on to that alliance due to the Law and Gospel wording in the Cambridge declaration.

 

[Edward]

This map is over 5 years old, but it includes confessional Baptist congregations, for what it's worth.

Farase is my go-to map for Reformed Baptists https://farese.com/

 

[Aslan088]

This is just a fun poll I thought I would bring out when a 1689 Federalist friend and I were having a discussion, and I pulled out "I only hear from you prejudice against a historically marginalized group known as Presbyterians." But we were unable to decide who had the better argument because he claimed that he was a Reformed Baptist, and therefore a more marginalized group.

So, in short - that we might decide who the winner is (/s) - do you believe there are more Presbyterians in the world today, or more Reformed Baptists and what would be your justification? Or, are there any statistics you might bring to bear?

I am - of course - only including Conservative, Biblical Presbyterians. The "PC"USA is neither a church nor Presbyterian.

So, in other words, how many RC Sprouls are there vs Voddie Bauchams in the world?

 

[Aslan088]

This is just a fun poll I thought I would bring out when a 1689 Federalist friend and I were having a discussion, and I pulled out "I only hear from you prejudice against a historically marginalized group known as Presbyterians." But we were unable to decide who had the better argument because he claimed that he was a Reformed Baptist, and therefore a more marginalized group.

So, in short - that we might decide who the winner is (/s) - do you believe there are more Presbyterians in the world today, or more Reformed Baptists and what would be your justification? Or, are there any statistics you might bring to bear?

I am - of course - only including Conservative, Biblical Presbyterians. The "PC"USA is neither a church nor Presbyterian.

There are way more Presbyterians than Reformed Baptists worldwide. Presbyterianism has massive denominations with millions of members, especially in places like Korea and Africa. Just the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and the Presbyterian Church (USA) alone have over a million combined, and that’s not even touching the global numbers. When you add in all the other Presbyterian and Reformed churches, the total comes out to around 40 to 50 million.

Reformed Baptists, on the other hand, are a much smaller group. There’s no single denomination that unites them like Presbyterians have, just loose associations like ARBCA and some Reformed Baptist networks. A lot of Calvinistic Baptists exist, but that doesn’t make them confessional Reformed Baptists. If we’re talking strict 1689 London Baptist Confession churches, the numbers are way smaller, probably in the low millions at most.

So overall, Presbyterians outnumber Reformed Baptists by a huge margin. The difference isn’t even close.

 

[Ploutos]

It may be that Calvinistic Baptists is a fair point of comparison. I don't know much about Presbyterianism outside of the USA, but I know that in the USA, counting the PCA means including a lot of people who are no doubt saved and vaguely aware of the Westminster Standards but would not be considered "confessional" in any meaningful sense of the word. I would suspect that's true in other continents with large conservative Presbyterian denominations as well.

If we wanted to make 1689LBCF churches the point of comparison, then I would say we should try to quantify what portion of the PCA is truly conservative and confessional, add in all the more seriously confessional denoms (OPC, ARP, RPCNA, etc...), and go from there.

 

[B.L.]

So, in short - that we might decide who the winner is (/s) - do you believe there are more Presbyterians in the world today, or more Reformed Baptists and what would be your justification? Or, are there any statistics you might bring to bear?

There was a time when denominational/doctrinal labels served as a meaningful way to understand distinctives between groups, but I don't think that is the case today generally speaking. While exceptions can be made for the various micro-denominations and small slivers that strictly hold to their confessional heritage and tend to draw a small subset of like-minded individuals, the majority of people in Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, etc. etc. churches have very little interest or knowledge in what makes their tradition unique or different. They might recognize at a surface level how one body's traditions/practices differ from another as they church hop or transfer membership, but I think most are theologically indifferent today and don't really care on a deeper level.

There are many more "Presbyterians" in the world today than there are "Reformed Baptists", but that's based on a rather meaningless head count, as I'd bet the majority of "Presbyterians" aren't so by conviction. "Reformed Baptists" are a slightly different animal only because those identifying as such add an additional qualifier (i.e. Reformed) to show what sort of Baptist they are. However, even here the label doesn't denote an affirmation of the 1689 per se, it often just means they are Calvinistic in their soteriology.

In short, I don't think there are any overly useful statistics to bring to bear, as most noses counted likely aren't "Presbyterian" or "Reformed Baptist" in any meaningful sense. It's probably harder to determine than an Alaskan being able to discern the difference between a crocodile and an alligator.

 

[dsanch1120]

This seems to be getting at a different question than “which group is larger?” Which is “how do you define Presbyterian/Reformed Baptist?” If we don’t have an agreement on what those two terms mean (and I don’t necessarily think we’ll get that) we’re all, in a sense, answering a different question

 

[DanSSwing]

If you don't own at least one Coogi sweater, you're not really a Reformed Baptist.

 

[Gwallard]

If you don't own at least one Coogi sweater, you're not really a Reformed Baptist.

I must not be Reformed/Calvinistic Baptist, because I have never heard of a Coogie sweater in my life. Thank you for the assurance!

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

If you don't own at least one Coogi sweater, you're not really a Reformed Baptist.

I have one that James White personally gave me, which makes me a Reformed Baptist to the 2nd Power.

 

[Ploutos]

I have one that James White personally gave me, which makes me a Reformed Baptist to the 2nd Power.

I always suspected that you were kind of a square. Thanks for confirming.

 

[No Other Name]

I have to turn in my card. I also have never heard of a Coogi sweater.

 

[DanSSwing]

I must not be Reformed/Calvinistic Baptist, because I have never heard of a Coogie sweater in my life. Thank you for the assurance!

 

[Phil D.]

If you don't own at least one Coogi sweater, you're not really a Reformed Baptist.

Well, shucks... I went from at least being a loser - to now being nothing at all...

I suppose the reason the meme couldn't show James in a Coogi, is because its hard to frown when wearing one...

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

I always suspected that you were kind of a square. Thanks for confirming.

Alas. Guilty as charged.

 

[Ploutos]

Alas. Guilty as charged.

I've always been good at getting to the root of the matter..

 

[Phil D.]

 

[No Other Name]

That was wisdom. And that is why I love Joel Beeke in return.