MoS on Revoice/SSA

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A.Joseph

Puritan Board Senior
This may be one of the most enlightening discussions on Revoice / Gay-Celibacy and the church I've come across...

It makes me conclude that the desire of Side-B Christians is 'acceptance.' Acceptance of their struggle. The struggle that comes with their attraction or propensity. .....

This leads me to another question. Why is acceptance and public acknowledgement of their plight so important? I mean, does it makes their struggle easier? Or does it actually remove the 'struggle?'

And if they believe same-sex attraction is not a sin, in and of itself (as referenced in the podcast), isnt that their goal in seeking acceptance (for others to also see it that way)? And does that make celibacy a special type of work (like in the RCC)?


On a side note. Is there any precedent for say a young man who acts effeminate, say like at 13, to be prescribed testosterone pills, having an impact on proper sexual desire? Just curious.... if lack of testosterone could be a contributor to somebody inadvertently going a same-sex desire route in practice or proclivity. ...Or maybe being a target (or victim) of somebody who embraces homosexuality.
 
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A followup question:

When is sexual attraction a sin? When it becomes a lustful desire? (It appears thats the type of distinction Side B proponents advocate - between attraction, even unnatural attraction, and lust).
 
Being attracted to the same sex is a sin, being attracted to the opposite is not a sin until it becomes lust.
 
Being attracted to the same sex is a sin, being attracted to the opposite is not a sin until it becomes lust.
Ok. See, thats an important distinction.

The counter-argument, I reckon, would be a propensity to despair, for the same-sex attracted individual.

I dont believe anyone is born gay or at least not hard-wired toward homosexuality. I think it can be cultivated and that there are various factors at play that can contribute towards such a 'disposition.' But I reject the 'Born that Way' argument.
 
The Scripture doesn't refer to it as SSA, but as "unnatural affection." It is sinful because it is unnatural.
And they would say that is why they are celibate. But it appears they view the attraction as part of their makeup or disposition that they cannot help and have chosen not to act on because God forbids it. But such a view appears a very slippery slope.

So they accept it as part of their identity. Im just not sure why ? Or how they are benefited by it?
 
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And they would say that is why they are celibate. But it appears they view the attraction as part of their makeup or disposition that they cannot help and have chosen not to act on because God forbids it. But such a view appears a very slippery slope.

So they accept it as part of their identity. Im just not sure why ? Or how they are benefited by it?
I think it allows for a kind of resignation.
 
"Born that way" language has become conspicuously absent since Obergefell.

So have references to "tolerance."

So, for that matter, has headline coverage of Westboro Baptist Church (although by now it's probably irrelevant anyway; don't know).

I've long suspected these things were little more than planks in a massive, cultural trojan horse.
 
I think it allows for a kind of resignation.
I don't think resignation is the right word. What this allows is for self-deception, that they're finding a "biblical" and "graceful" way of addressing a complex and thorny sin problem. It allows for self-delusion that they're holding the tension in a place where it can be held, self-delusion that they're not opening the door to full-fledged acceptance of homosexuality both in thought and deed as a valid lifestyle for Christians.

Sin is not something you make peace with, especially not sexual sin. More people need to read what Matthew Henry has to say on 1 Corinthians 7 (yes, I know it wasn't actually written by him). When we sin we unite Christ to our sin, and when we embrace sinful desires we are telling Christ he should be doing the same. I don't know about y'all, but I remember what it was like to be unsaved and mired in sexual sin. I want no peace with it and no part of it. This is war to the death and the only goal is total and utter extermination of the enemy. Anything else is a denial of the transforming power of Christ and His Spirit, and a tarnishing of our heavenly hope.
 
I don't think resignation is the right word. What this allows is for self-deception, that they're finding a "biblical" and "graceful" way of addressing a complex and thorny sin problem. It allows for self-delusion that they're holding the tension in a place where it can be held, self-delusion that they're not opening the door to full-fledged acceptance of homosexuality both in thought and deed as a valid lifestyle for Christians.

Sin is not something you make peace with, especially not sexual sin. More people need to read what Matthew Henry has to say on 1 Corinthians 7 (yes, I know it wasn't actually written by him). When we sin we unite Christ to our sin, and when we embrace sinful desires we are telling Christ he should be doing the same. I don't know about y'all, but I remember what it was like to be unsaved and mired in sexual sin. I want no peace with it and no part of it. This is war to the death and the only goal is total and utter extermination of the enemy. Anything else is a denial of the transforming power of Christ and His Spirit, and a tarnishing of our heavenly hope.
My answer wasn’t about what we might think rather with those we are critiquing.
 
I think it allows for a kind of resignation.
Ok, that makes sense. I remember seeing Pastor Johnson tweet this and I did feel bad for the guy. .... I dont think he meant for somebody to read it that way, but for some reason, I felt sad for him. Not pity, just.... it must be a lonely place to be. Obviously, Im stepping outside the theological discussion when I make this observation.
 
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There must be another way for these men and women to receive support and not flirt so closely with lgbt identity ideology. Im not sure what that should look like.


Dr. Rosaria Butterfield?



If possible I would hope these issues could get resolved early on, but not sure how complex and deep these type of issues run and how or why it happens in the first place.
 
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There must be another way for these men and women to receive support and not flirt so closely with lgbt identity ideology. Im not sure what that should look like.


If possible I would hope these issues could get resolved early on, but not sure how complex and deep these type of issues run and how or why it happens in the first place....

Dr. Rosaria Butterfield?
The real dismissive behavior is on the side b side if you will. The way people who have escaped the bondage of ssa are treated by the those who haven’t is often nothing short of terrible. Dr Butterfield herself has been accused of being a kind of dormant bisexual. Just google. Johnson is a train wreck and indeed a sad case.
 
The real dismissive behavior is on the side b side if you will. The way people who have escaped the bondage of ssa are treated by the those who haven’t is often nothing short of terrible. Dr Butterfield herself has been accused of being a kind of dormant bisexual. Just google. Johnson is a train wreck and indeed a sad case.
She seems so thoughtful and compassionate. I dont understand how she can simply be written off.
 
The real dismissive behavior is on the side b side if you will. The way people who have escaped the bondage of ssa are treated by the those who haven’t is often nothing short of terrible. Dr Butterfield herself has been accused of being a kind of dormant bisexual. Just google. Johnson is a train wreck and indeed a sad case.
I haven't been able to find a link to this - could you provide one?
 
@A.Joseph What is MoS? I don't see the term defined anywhere in your posts. The only MOS I can think of is Military Occupation Specialty. And that doesn't seem to fit here.
 
I haven't been able to find a link to this - could you provide one?
I’m assuming you’re asking about Butterfield. Here is a less profane blogpost by a critic. You can google yourself for more. Be warned though …..
 
And they would say that is why they are celibate. But it appears they view the attraction as part of their makeup or disposition that they cannot help and have chosen not to act on because God forbids it. But such a view appears a very slippery slope.

So they accept it as part of their identity. Im just not sure why ? Or how they are benefited by it?
I was thinking about this this morning. Are there other sins that people "identify" with? Paul gives a list in 1 Cor. 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

It made me think of alcoholic anonymous meetings where the participants stand up and say "My name is ____ and I am an alcoholic."

Is this something we should support? That if you were an alcoholic, thief, homosexual, etc. 30 years ago then you are still one today? Doesn't it negate the reality that people can change?
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
 
I was thinking about this this morning. Are there other sins that people "identify" with? Paul gives a list in 1 Cor. 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

It made me think of alcoholic anonymous meetings where the participants stand up and say "My name is ____ and I am an alcoholic."

Is this something we should support? That if you were an alcoholic, thief, homosexual, etc. 30 years ago then you are still one today? Doesn't it negate the reality that people can change?
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I'm not picking on Pastor Johnson, but I do wonder the theological implications. I do believe this is an opportunity for scriptural clarity. I feel like religious pluralism is being sought above and beyond a more precise scriptual analysis of these matters which I think would be the proper remedy for which all parties are best served, after the heart/mind/soul of Christ and his Word.


“Gay Christianity is a different religion. I’m not standing in the same forest with Greg Johnson and Wes Hill and Nate Collins looking at different angles of the trees, I’m in a different forest altogether.” - Rosaria Butterfield
 
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I'm not picking on Pastor Johnson, but I do wonder the theological implications. I do believe this is an opportunity for scriptural clarity. I feel like religious pluralism is being sought above and beyond a more precise scriptual analysis of these matters which I think would be the proper remedy for which all parties are best served, after the heart/mind/soul of Christ and his Word.


“Gay Christianity is a different religion. I’m not standing in the same forest with Greg Johnson and Wes Hill and Nate Collins looking at different angles of the trees, I’m in a different forest altogether.” - Rosaria Butterfield
A Gospel that tells me that I will never by the grace of God be able to grow, hate and deny my sin is no Gospel at all.
 
I thought this article raised some good points and was charitable yet very clear/concise overall (although it misses 1 Corinthians 7:8 as a reference point; rather, keeping the focus where GJ is/was at the moment).....


"Johnson’s speech sounds less like the confessions of Paphnutius and more like what psychologists call depressive realism. Depressive realism is the tendency of depressed persons, at their lowest points, to logically state their own predicaments, and the implications of these predicaments, in as bold a relief as possible. This stark way of thinking amplifies the negative and may increase hopelessness. Depressive realism can be a kind of wallowing or over-scrupulosity. This is fatalism."
 
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and is noted at the link in the OP.
I moused over the link and it showed Reformation21, with nothing in the link that would decode MoS. And I don't click on links without solid clues about where I'm going to land.

But sincere thanks for filling in the missing information.
 
I would think the best remedy would be to attempt to restore Pastor Johnson. He should be encouraged to take some time off and rethink his faith. He's in crusader mode..... he's caught up in politics and cant see past his natural/unnatural condition. Not only is his desire disordered but its spilling into his faith.
 
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