Mozart's sym no 25 in g minor and Beethoven piano sonata op 2 no 1 in f minor

[Anton Bruckner]

Mozart\'s sym no 25 in g minor and Beethoven piano sonata op 2 no 1 in f minor

the main theme of the first movement is is so similar its scary. Beethoven has been found guilty of plagiarism.

[Edited on 4-10-2006 by Slippery]

 

[SmokingFlax]

Hey...did you pick this up by ear or from reading someone's comments ?
Good ear if you just happened to notice it!

Unfortunately I don't have recordings of both of them so as to compare them. I'll have to dig through my scores to see if I have them.

I know Mozart didn't happen to write so frequently in minor keys.
As for plagiarism, I think I would consider it more as homage to a great master. Bach did it a bunch of times transcribing whole Vivaldi compositions to the keyboard. And certain popular themes seem to crop up as melodic material in many composers (like using certain old Church chants for example).

I wonder if Mozart didn't, perhaps, borrow the theme from somewhere himself?

 

[turmeric]

Good writers borrow, great writers steal! And I don't know who I stole that from or I'd give him credit.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by SmokingFlax
Hey...did you pick this up by ear or from reading someone's comments ?
Good ear if you just happened to notice it!

Unfortunately I don't have recordings of both of them so as to compare them. I'll have to dig through my scores to see if I have them.

I know Mozart didn't happen to write so frequently in minor keys.
As for plagiarism, I think I would consider it more as homage to a great master. Bach did it a bunch of times transcribing whole Vivaldi compositions to the keyboard. And certain popular themes seem to crop up as melodic material in many composers (like using certain old Church chants for example).

I wonder if Mozart didn't, perhaps, borrow the theme from somewhere himself?

I picked it up by ear. Two weeks ago I tried to play the first movement of the sonata (I'm not a great pianist by a long shot, but I have a good foundation), and as it kept ringing in my ears, it brought back the main theme of mozart's g minor symphony.

Another area where I think Beethoven plagiarized from Mozart is his 3rd piano concerto in C minor. Compare that to Mozart's piano concerto no 24 in the same key, and you will see that the first 5 notes of the main theme are the same identical pitch as well as time statement ( all minims for the first two). The only diversion is that Beethoven did his in 4/4 time whilst Mozart kept his in 3/4 time.


LOL at Meg. Ironically, whenever I find myself simply improvising, I sound a lot like Chopin. stealing themes.

 

[VictorBravo]

I don't think they really thought in terms of plagarism in those days. When Beethoven wrote his music, Mozart was still a vivid memory. Everyone who was familiar with Mozart's music would recognize the theme. So Beethoven wasn't really stealing anything.

As was pointed out, Bach borrowed themes from many places, even himself. He credited Vivaldi, but he did not always (or even often) credit the sources of his themes or melodies. It was all pretty much fair game.

By the way, did you know that Brahm's four symphonies are ordered after the opening theme of the last movement of Mozart's last symphony? CDFE

 

[Cuirassier]

Indeed - and I would add that I believe Handel was an early proponent of Recycling - because the Messiah Pastorale, and numerous elements from both the Fireworks and Watermusik suites got repackaged into certain of his Concerti Grosso (not at home to check which ones, alas).

If I recall correctly, Corelli recyled some of his work too ...

Thanks a lot guys ...now I'm hearing an orchestral version of "Oops - I did it again" going through my head ...

dl

 

[New wine skin]

recycling = Variations (positive connotation)

If you enjoy classical check out Alkan. He was a big influence on many key composers. You will be amazed!!!

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by New wine skin
recycling = Variations (positive connotation)

If you enjoy classical check out Alkan. He was a big influence on many key composers. You will be amazed!!!

he was a bad mama jama pianist. but i was never motivated to pick up any of his music.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by victorbravo


By the way, did you know that Brahm's four symphonies are ordered after the opening theme of the last movement of Mozart's last symphony? CDFE

Nah, I didn't know that. But Brahms was very blatant in using excerpts of the last movement in Beethoven's 9th, for the finale of his 1st.

You're right Victor. Plagiarism wasn't an issue then, at least they didn't see what they did as plagiarism. And I have no problem with that, because these guys really benefitted from each other.

But my goodness, I guess lawyering wasn't a low down dirty shame. can you imagine the copy right violations that these guys committed.

 

[py3ak]

Handel stole from Bononcini saying "That theme was too good for Bononcini".

 

[xcrunner12]

Originally posted by py3ak
Handel stole from Bononcini saying "That theme was too good for Bononcini".

Looks like Handel was right