Music as reason not to go

[Tom Hart]

I would stress that we are fed by God's word first. Music is a nice bonus but it is faithful, solid expositional preaching that matters first. Not to mention, this is where the real growth is going to come from.

You might find that some of our magisterial reformers were of a different opinion.

Hear Calvin:

"If it be inquired, then, by what things chiefly the Christian religion has a standing existence among us, and maintains its truth, it will be found that the following two not only occupy the principal place, but comprehend under them all the other parts, and consequently the whole substance of Christianity: that is, a knowledge, first, of the mode in which God is duly worshipped; and, secondly, of the source from which salvation is to be obtained." (The Necessity of Reforming the Church)​

Note that for Calvin the manner in which God is to be worshipped takes first place. He spends the first considerable portion of that treatise discussing worship.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

You might find that some of our magisterial reformers were of a different opinion.

Hear Calvin:

If it be inquired, then, by what things chiefly the Christian religion has a standing existence among us, and maintains its truth, it will be found that the following two not only occupy the principal place, but comprehend under them all the other parts, and consequently the whole substance of Christianity: that is, a knowledge, first, of the mode in which God is duly worshipped; and, secondly, of the source from which salvation is to be obtained." (The Necessity of Reforming the Church)​

Note that for Calvin the manner in which God is to be worshipped takes first place. He spends the first considerable portion of that treatise discussing worship.

Music should glorify God and teach sound doctrine. That said. The pulpit sits at the center of the service, not the altar or the instrument. I don’t hang on every single word or opinion of the reformers. Show me in the Word of God, where faith comes by singing a worship song and not the Word of God.

 

[Tom Hart]

The pulpit sits at the center of the service, not the alter or the instrument.

Some assumptions are being made here.

I don’t hang on every single word or opinion of the reformers.

Of course not. I only pointed out that on this subject you will find yourself disagreeing with Calvin (and many others).

Show me in the Word of God, where faith comes by singing a worship song and not the Word of God.

It depends. What "worship songs" are you singing?

 

[Reformed Apologist]

Some assumptions are being made here.

Of course not. I only pointed out that on this subject you will find yourself disagreeing with Calvin (and many others).

It depends. What "worship songs" are you singing?

I’m not here to argue that worships songs don’t edify. I’m not saying that singing isn’t an integral part of worship. What I am saying, is that the preaching of the Word is primary. Anybody who picks a church or leaves a church, based purely on the quality of the music is an ignorant fool.

 

[Tom Hart]

I’m not here to argue that worships songs don’t edify.

Plenty don't.

I’m not saying that worship isn’t an integral part of worship.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean.

What I am saying, is that the preaching of the Word is primary.

Got that.

Anybody who picks a church or leaves a church, based purely on the quality of the music is an ignorant fool.

OK.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

Plenty don't.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean.

Got that.

OK.

I'm sorry about the typo. I meant "singing" is an integral part of worship. Also, I should not have used the word fool. That was not appropriate and I apologize.

I just feel strongly on the subject. Taste in music is highly subjective and frankly, too many people exchange solid preaching for good music and it should be the opposite

 

[Tom Hart]

I just feel strongly on the subject.

As do I. As I see it, the theology of worship is where much of the church's greatest deficiencies lie. The Sabbath, the singing of psalms, and so on. The whole First Table of the Law, really.

Taste in music is highly subjective and frankly, too many people exchange solid preaching for good music and it should be the opposite

This is true. Music is a tricky thing. It can be frighteningly manipulative.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

As do I. As I see it, the theology of worship is where much of the church's greatest deficiencies lie. The Sabbath, the singing of psalms, and so on. The whole First Table of the Law, really.

This is true. Music is a tricky thing. It can be frighteningly manipulative.

Now, I would love to see music with actuall theological depth. Music that teaches or elaborates on doctrine. I fully agree with you on those points, and music when done well ( and properly) does teach. In my opinion, music today is theologically shallow. They are trying to tug on heart strings without instilling sound doctrine. Just my .02

 

[Tom Hart]

Now, I would love to see music with actuall theological depth. Music that teaches or elaborates on doctrine. I fully agree with you on those points, and music when done well ( and properly) does teach. In my opinion, music today is theologically shallow. They are trying to tug on heart strings without instilling sound doctrine. Just my .02

Honest question: Have you ever heard of psalmody?

 

[Reformed Apologist]

I don't know if It's the same thing, but I did hear of a group who puts the psalms to music. I've been meaning to check it out but sadly, I keep forgetting.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

Honest question: Have you ever heard of psalmody?

I just checked it out, that's good stuff!

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I just checked it out, that's good stuff!

The tradition of the reformed church is to sing all the Psalms of the Bible. That way the church is singing the purely inspired Word of God.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

The tradition of the reformed church is to sing all the Psalms of the Bible. That way the church is singing the purely inspired Word of God.

You'll have to forgive me. I am Reformed Southern Baptist, we don't sing scripture. I do wish we would though. I happen to love Ambrosian chant myself

 

[Tom Hart]

I just checked it out, that's good stuff!

I hold to the doctrine of exclusive psamody (EP); that is, nothing but the psalms ought to be sung in worship. I use the Scottish Psalter of 1650 every day in my closet worship.

Also, I believe that in the New Testament era musical instruments are not to be used in the saints' worship.

Something to think about.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

I hold to the doctrine of exclusive psamody (EP); that is, nothing but the psalms ought to be sung in worship. I use the Scottish Psalter of 1650 every day in my closet worship.

Also, I believe that in the New Testament era musical instruments are not to be used in the saints' worship.

Something to think about.

I respect that you feel that way, and though I do not exactly agree with you, I don't see a need to deride you either

 

[Tom Hart]

I respect that you feel that way

Feeling's got nothing to do with it!

and though I do not exactly agree with you

It took me some convincing. I used to thing those psalm-singers were a bunch of rotten legalists!

But give psalm singing a shot, whatever your convictions. There are no songs like the psalms. You'll be blessed in singing them. Not to mention it's commanded in Scripture.

I can recommend an excellent book by Michael Lefebvre: Singing the Songs of Jesus. It is a great introduction to the value of psalm-singing, if you, like me, had never thought the psalms could be sung! Really a great book. I couldn't recommend it enough.

I don't see a need to deride you either

Glad to hear it! Take care.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

Feeling's got nothing to do with it!

It took me some convincing. I used to thing those psalm-singers were a bunch of rotten legalists!

But give psalm singing a shot, whatever your convictions. There are no songs like the psalms. You'll be blessed in singing them. Not to mention it's commanded in Scripture.

I can recommend an excellent book by Michael Lefebvre: Singing the Songs of Jesus. It is a great introduction to the value of psalm-singing, if you, like me, had never thought the psalms could be sung! Really a great book. I couldn't recommend it enough.

Glad to hear it! Take care.

If you want to excersise your faith that way that's your choice. To imply ( not saying you are) someones worship is insufficient because they don't practice the same is an issue.
You are taking something not mandated by scripture and making it doctrine. How is that not Legalism? You are mandating as doctrine, litaraly the comandments of men.

 

[Tom Hart]

To imply ( not saying you are) someones worship is insufficient because they don't practice the same is an issue.

I would say that, though.

You are taking something not mandated by scripture and making it doctrine. How is that not Legalism? You are mandating as doctrine, litaraly the comandments of men.

Singing of psalms not mandated by Scripture? Don't worry, I understand exactly where you're coming from. I'd encourage a serious study of the issue. Start with Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19.

Well, we have strayed from the OP. There have been a couple of recent threads on psalmody, which I'd encourage you to read through. Or you could always start your own thread to explore the subject.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

I would say that, though.

Singing of psalms not mandated by Scripture? Don't worry, I underwtand exactly where you're coming from. I'd encourage a serious study of the issue. Start with Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19.

Well, we have strayed from the OP. There have been a couple of recent threads on psalmody, which I'd encourage you to read through. Or you could always start your own thread to explore the subject.

I'm highly skeptical Tom, but in the interest of truth and fairness, I will do that. I'll get back to you on it.

 

[Reformed Apologist]

Ok Tom, per Col 3:16, we are encouraged to sing Psalms. I'm not to to argue with scripture and so, we should do that. However, we should sing hymms too and so, I would still consider some types of music as appropriate.

 

[Tom Hart]

Ok Tom, per Col 3:16, we are encouraged to sing Psalms. I'm not to to argue with scripture and so, we should do that. However, we should sing hymms too and so, I would still consider some types of music as appropriate.

You have broken the surface of a deep well.

I'd love to keep talking but I'm afraid I have to run now. Let's consider this more later.