Musical Instruments: Denial of Christ's Final Sacrifice

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Romans922

Puritan Board Professor
This is for those who hold to a cappella singing in the Churches, and for others who care to read and learn some history.


The use of musical instruments in the public worship of the Church is a denial of Christ's final sacrifice. Just the same as if we used an altar today and sacrificed an animal upon it in Christ's worship. [NOTE: This is not saying that those who use musical instruments are not Christians. Only that the use of musical instruments does deny Christ's sacrifice.].

Summary: The Scriptures are clear, if we would be cognizant of the books 1 and 2 Chronicles, that musical instruments were added as an element of the ceremonial temple worship under the time of David to be employed by Solomon upon the building of the temple. It was the duty of certain Levitical priests to carry the ark, etc. as they moved through the wilderness. However, since the ark had come to rest in its final place in Jerusalem at the threshing floor, the Lord instituted a new duty to those same Levites adding an element of singing and instrument playing as a covering of sorts to the gruesome and unending sacrifices offered. It is noted that only a particular group of Levites were to be players of instruments, and the instruments were determined by the Lord not the priests. The common Jew did not play the instruments, only the Levites of particular family groups.

When we come to Hebrews and we come to Christ's final sacrifice everything of the ceremonial temple worship is done away with. So that even in 2 Chronicles 29:25-30 this is foreshadowed in the time of Hezekiah's reforms that when the sacrifices were offered the singers sang and the instrument players played "until the burnt offering was finished" at which time the Levites are commanded to keep on singing praise unto the Lord. So that the final sacrifice offered, instruments cease, while the Levites kept singing the praises of the Lord.

When coming to the NT, we learn that Christ's final sacrifice brings a complete end to the ceremonial temple worship. There is no more temple, altar, laver of washing, and no instruments. Following Christ's final sacrifice we learn that the instruments God's people play are now the strings of the heart ('making melody' is that word for plucking an instrument).

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...

And the sacrifice that is offered is praise from our lips, Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

If the playing of musical instruments is part of temple worship, and it is fulfilled by Christ’s final sacrifice. To then employ musical instruments in worship when Christ has died once for all is a great affront to our Savior. It is a passive denial of His final sacrifice.

In Church History, the vast majority of the Church did not use musical instruments in public worship until the popularization of it through Moody's revivals in the 19th Century (the Jewish Synagogue didn't until 1950). There are examples of use before this but not in a lot of churches.

Our reformed fathers spoke to the use of musical instruments as well:
John Chrysostom, Homily on Psalm 149 (4th century),
“It was only permitted to the Jews as sacrifice was, for the heaviness and grossness of their souls. God condescended to their weakness, because they were lately drawn off from idols; but now, instead of organs, we may use our own bodies to praise him withal. Instruments appertain not to Christians.”

John Calvin’s Homily on 1 Samuel 18:1-9 1561-3 (As quoted by Porteous, The Organ Question, p. 45),
“In Popery there was a ridiculous and unsuitable imitation [of the Jews]. While they adorned their temples, and valued themselves as having made the worship of God more splendid and inviting, they employed organs, and many other such ludicrous things, by which the Word and worship of God are exceedingly profaned, the people being much more attached to those rites than to the understanding of the divine Word.
We know, however, that where such understanding is not, there can be no edification, as the Apostle Paul teacheth, while he saith, ‘How can a person give testimony to the faith, and how can he say Amen at the giving of thanks, if he does not understand?’
Wherefore, in that same place, he exhorts the faithful, whether they pray or sing, they should pray and sing with understanding, not in an unknown tongue, but in that which is vulgar and intelligible, that edification may be in the Church. What, therefore, was in use under the Law, is by no means entitled to our practice under the Gospel, and these things being not only superfluous, but useless, are to be abstained from; because pure and simple modulation is sufficient for the praise of God, if it is sung with the heart and with the mouth.
We know that our Lord Jesus Christ has appeared, and by his advent has abolished these legal shadows. Instrumental music, we therefore maintain, was only tolerated on account of the times and of the people, because they were as boys, as the sacred Scripture speaketh, whose condition required these puerile rudiments. But in Gospel times, we must not have recourse to these, unless we wish to destroy the evangelical perfection, and to obscure the meridian light which we enjoy in Christ our Lord.”

John Calvin - Sermons on Second Samuel (1562),
“It would be nothing but mimicry if we followed David today in singing with cymbals, flutes, tambourines and psalteries. In fact, the papists were seriously deceived in their desire to worship God with their pompous inclusion of organs, trumpets, oboes and similar instruments. That has only served to amuse the people in their vanity, and to turn them away from the true institution which God has ordained. In a word, the musical instruments were in the same class as sacrifices, candelabra, lamps and similar things. Those who take this approach are reverting to a sort of Jewishness, as if they wanted to mingle the Law and the Gospel, and thus bury our Lord Jesus Christ. When we are told that David sang with a musical instrument, let us carefully remember that we are not to make a rule of it. Rather, we are to recognise today that we must sing the praises of God in simplicity, since the shadows of the Law are past, and since in our Lord Jesus Christ we have the truth and embodiment of all these things which were given to the ancient fathers in the time of their ignorance or smallness of faith.”

Hungarian Reformed Church Confession (1567)
"The musical instruments, however, adopted for the pantomime (saltatrici) Mass of Antichrist, together with images, we abhor. There is no use for them in the church, and indeed they are marks and occasions of idolatry."

Samuel Rutherford (minister and professor, Church of Scotland; Westminster divine), The Divine Right of Church Government and Excommunication (1646),
“God’s spirit worketh not with Ceremonies, and so they are as the offering of Swine’s blood, and the slaying of a man; and so Abomination to God, Isa. 66:1,2. The holy spirit is merited to us by Christ, Joh. 16:14. He shall receive of mine, and shew unto you: But who can say that the grace of joy in the holy Ghost, wrought by the droning of Organs, and the holinesse taught by the Surplice, is a work of the spirit merited by Christ as our High Priest? Now altars, Organs, Jewish Ephods, or Surplice, Masse-cloaths, and Romish Crossing, bowing to Altars, Images, are badges of Jewish and Popish Religion.”

Richard Cameron (Sermon 2)
"The Jewish way under the law of praising the Lord was upon the timbrel, the harp, psaltery, and ten-stringed instruments, and other instruments of music that belonged to ceremonial worship that is now abolished. Christ, who is the end of the law, has torn or taken away the ceremonies of the law, and there is no warrant now to make use of the organs, as they do in the Popish Church, and in the Prelatical Church of England, and even among them that are more reformed, those over in Holland. Oh, but we have a great advantage in being free of these!"

James Peirce (minister, English nonconformist/Presbyterian), A Vindication of the Dissenters (1718),
“[C]ertainly a man must be blind, who does not see, that trumpets, harps, and such like musical instruments, belonged to the pomp and ceremony of the Jewish worship. Now all these thing are abrogated, together with the law that appointed the worship; unless any of them appear afresh injoined by some particular command.”

Thomas Ridgeley (minister, English nonconformist), A Body of Divinity: Wherein the Doctrines of the Christian Religion are Explained and Defended, Being the Substance of Several Lectures Upon the Assembly’s Larger Catechism (1731-32),
“It is objected that those arguments which have been taken from the practice of the Old Testament church, to prove singing an ordinance, may, with equal justice, be alleged to prove the use of instrumental music in religious worship; since we very often read of their praising God with ‘the sound of the trumpet, psaltery, harp, organ,’ and other musical instruments. This is the principle argument brought for the use of musical instruments by those who defend it and conclude it an help to devotion. But, though we often read of music being used in singing the praises of God under the Old Testament; yet if what has been said concerning its being a type of that spiritual joy which attends our praising God for the privilege of that redemption which Christ has purchased, the objection will appear to have no weight, the type being now abolished, together with the ceremonial law. Besides, though we read of the use of music in the temple-service, yet it does not sufficiently appear that it was ever used in the Jewish synagogues; the mode of worship observed in which more resembled that which is at present performed by us in our public assemblies. But what may sufficiently determine this matter, is that we have no precept nor precedent for it in the New Testament, either from the practice of Christ, or his apostles. Some, indeed, allege that the absence of any such precept or precedent overthrows the ordinance of singing, and pretend that this ought to be no more used by us than the harp, organ, or other musical instruments. But it might as well be objected that, because incense, which was used under the ceremonial law, together with prayer in the temple, is not now to be offered by us, prayer ought to be laid aside; which is, as all own, a duty founded on the moral law.”

Alexander Blaikie (ARP), The Manner of Praise, 1849,
“IX. Was instrumental music employed in Jewish worship by the appointment of God? Yes. Always at the temple, after its erection, on the days of their great and solemn festivals, and at the offering of the morning and evening sacrifice; but never in their synagogues, the usual places of weekly worship. Instrumental music was of various kinds in their solemnities, and bore the same relation to praise that incense did to prayer. The one was always an accompaniment of the other. At the temple worship, or under the Mosaic dispensation, 1 Chron. 23:5; Ezra 3:10-12; 2 Chron. 8:14; Luke 1:10; 1 Chron. 23:13, and both instrumental music and incense were by the sacrifice of Christ superseded together. Psa. 141:2; Mal. 1:11; Rev. 5:8; Acts 10:4,30,31; Rev. 8:1,3,4.
X. Was instrumental music in use when Christ was on the earth? Yes. Both it and the varied sacrifices of slain beasts were in use at the temple.
XI. How long was instrumental music continued in divine worship? By the Jews, instruments were probably used at the temple until the destruction of it by Titus. By the primitive Christians they were never employed. “The weak and beggarly elements” of Jewish “bondage,” sacred persons, places, and things, priests, altars, temple, sacrifices, incense, robes, and instrumental music, all, all alike perished from acceptance in the worship of God, when Emmanuel exclaimed on the cross, “It is finished.”

Robert Candlish as quoted in James Gibson’s, The Public Worship of God, 1869, Pg. 107,
“I believe that it is a question which touches some of the highest and deepest points of Christian theology. Is the temple destroyed? Is the temple worship wholly superseded? Have we, or have we not, priests and sacrifices among us now? Is the temple or the synagogue the model on which the Church of the New Testament is formed? Does the Old Testament itself point to anything but ‘the fruit of the lips’ [Heb. 13:15] as the peace-offering or thank-offering of gospel times? Is there a trace in the New Testament of any other mode of praise? For my part I am persuaded that if the organ be admitted, there is no barrier, in principle, against the sacredotal system in all its fullness -- against the substitution again, in our whole religion, of the formal for the spiritual, the symbolic for the real.”


Can musical instruments be used as circumstances of worship?

First, those things which are elements cannot be circumstances. Instruments were once elements of ceremonial temple worship but no longer in Christ.

The Standards say, “Nevertheless, we acknowledge that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.” WCF 1.6

Singing with instruments is unnecessary for the singing of God's praise. Further, the term "a cappella" comes from the meaning of "in the chapel/church".

Ursinus shows that circumstances in their nature do not involve our approach to God or our response to His word. Those things are elements (word, sacraments, prayer). Circumstances are the times and places at which, and the languages with which we worship, but the way we respond to or approach God are regulated strictly by God’s Word. This is how the Reformed have understood the function of the formal principle of the Reformation (sola Scripture) in worship.

So we see a principle there, circumstances are not elements, nor can they affect those elements of worship, how we respond to and approach God are all part of the elements of worship.

John Girardeau - There are three criteria by which the kind of circumstances attending worship which fall under the discretionary power of the church may be determined: 1), they are not qualities or modes of the acts of worship; they are extraneous to them as a certain kind of actions; [THEY ARE NOT THE ACTS OF WORSHIP NOR INTRICATELY INVOLVED AROUND THEM, they are outside of them] 2), they are common to the acts of all societies, and, therefore, not peculiar to the acts of the church as a particular sort of society — they are not characteristic and distinctive of her acts and predicable of them alone; and 3), they are conditions necessary to the performance of the acts of worship — without them the acts of this society could not be done, as without them the acts of no society could be done.

Thomas Peck defined a circumstance of worship this way, “A concomitant (something that accompanies is associated with something) of an action, without which it can either not be done at all, or cannot be done with decency and decorum.”

Examples of circumstances of worship are the time on the Lord’s Day and place the worship service is held, the order of worship (liturgy), having pews or chairs. None of these things have any spiritual significance, but they are needed for orderly worship. “So soon as you attach a spiritual meaning, a sacred significance, to anything connected with worship, it becomes a part of worship.1 And no longer a circumstance. For example, candles would be a circumstance of worship if used for lighting, but as soon religious significance is added to them, such as the lighting of Advent candles, it becomes an unlawful element of worship.

Ursinus gives this list of examples of circumstances – “of which kind are the time, the place, the form and order of sermons, prayers, reading in the church, fasts, the manner of proceeding in the election of ministers, in collecting and distributing alms, and things of a similar nature.”

Girardeau addresses circumstances and singing of praise, let us submit musical instruments to his criteria:

First, they are not parts of the acts of worship by which they are modified; but this circumstance is a part of the act of singing praise by which it is performed.

Secondly, these circumstances are common to the acts of human societies, not peculiar to, and distinctive of, those of the church. It is very certain that instrumental music is not such a circumstance. It will hardly be said that all societies play on instruments as well as the church.

Thirdly, these circumstances are conditions necessary to the performance of the acts of worship, without which they either cannot be done at all, or not done decently and in order. That the singing of praise cannot be performed at all without instrumental music will be affirmed by none. But it may be affirmed that it cannot without it be performed decently and in order. Let it be noticed that the question is not whether it may be performed in an indecent and disorderly manner. Granted; but so may instrumental music. The question is, whether it cannot be done decently and in order without instrumental accompaniment. The question can only be determined by reference of the practice to a permanent and universal standard of propriety and decorum. And to say that the simple singing of God’s praise in His house is indecent and disorderly is to say, that for twelve centuries the church of Christ was guilty of this impropriety; for it is a matter of history that for that period not even the Church of Rome knew anything of instruments in her worship. To say that the simple singing of God’s praise violates the standard of decency and order of this age is to censure the glorious Free Church of Scotland and the Irish Presbyterian Church for an indecent and disorderly conduct of this part of divine worship. The ground, therefore, that instrumental music in public worship is one of those circumstances required by the rule that all things be done decently and in order cannot be maintained without a spirit of arrogance and censoriousness which would itself violate the higher principle of Christian charity. It is submitted, with all modesty, that this line of argument ought to be conclusive with Presbyterians, at least, against ranking instrumental music in public worship as one of the circumstances common to human actions and societies which fall under the discretion of the church.
 
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In Church History, the vast majority of the Church did not use musical instruments in public worship until the popularization of it through Moody's revivals in the 19th Century (the Jewish Synagogue didn't until 1950). There are examples of use before this but not in a lot of churches.

I'll need to review the history on this topic. The ARP Church allowed congregations to use musical instruments in worship starting in 1903, while remaining exclusive psalmody singers for nearly a half century longer. I got the impression it was already quite common in churches in the region when the ARP adopted it. The discussion was happening during Moody's lifetime.

many mI haven't studied this extensively, but I remember reading in Giradeau's book about the history (as well as John Price). I believe part of why Giradeau wrote his book was because instruments were becoming more common among Presbyterians of his day in the 1880s. What I recall is that organs were first officially allowed in the western church in the mid-600s and by the time of the Reformation were extremely common. Luther was not against instruments, but the Reformed were (those influenced by Calvin and Zwingli). Each branch off of the Reformed tradition had a different history in how they got it back, but I thought by the mid-19th century instruments were already common among many Protestants (not just Lutherans).
 
I'll need to review the history on this topic. The ARP Church allowed congregations to use musical instruments in worship starting in 1903, while remaining exclusive psalmody singers for nearly a half century longer. I got the impression it was already quite common in churches in the region when the ARP adopted it. The discussion was happening during Moody's lifetime.

many mI haven't studied this extensively, but I remember reading in Giradeau's book about the history (as well as John Price). I believe part of why Giradeau wrote his book was because instruments were becoming more common among Presbyterians of his day in the 1880s. What I recall is that organs were first officially allowed in the western church in the mid-600s and by the time of the Reformation were extremely common. Luther was not against instruments, but the Reformed were (those influenced by Calvin and Zwingli). Each branch off of the Reformed tradition had a different history in how they got it back, but I thought by the mid-19th century instruments were already common among many Protestants (not just Lutherans).
Largely agree with what you’ve written. “Extremely common” may be a bit much, but certainly you wouldn’t say most churches had them nor used them during worship. If I wasnt clear, I would say Moody’s revivals tempted many more churches to use them. And through Moody the vast majority of churches were using them in worship. This is not to say they weren’t gaining ground before him. But Moody through gasoline on the fire if you will…. I assume we largely agree though.
 
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Curious that the KJV renders ἑαυτοῖς "yourselves" in Ephesians 5:19 (alone among Protestant translations in this regard), while it renders it "one another" in Colossians 3:16, along with all other translations.

Calvin's commentary on Colossians 3:16 is also interesting.

Psalms, hymns. He does not restrict the word of Christ to these particular departments, but rather intimates that all our communications should be adapted to edification, that even those which tend to hilarity may have no empty savor. "Leave to unbelievers that foolish delight which they take from ludicrous and frivolous jests and witticisms; [453] and let your communications, not merely those that are grave, but those also that are joyful and exhilarating, contain something profitable. In place of their obscene, or at least barely modest and decent, songs, it becomes you to make use of hymns and songs that sound forth God's praise." Farther, under these three terms he includes all kinds of songs. They are commonly distinguished in this way -- that a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: a hymn is properly a song of praise, whether it be sung simply with the voice or otherwise; while an ode contains not merely praises, but exhortations and other matters. He would have the songs of Christians, however, to be spiritual, not made up of frivolities and worthless trifles. For this has a connection with his argument.​
 
What I recall is that organs were first officially allowed in the western church in the mid-600s and by the time of the Reformation were extremely common.
I think uninspired hymns became common around that time, but instruments remained rare. Think Gregorian chants. Even as late as Thomas Aquinas, he called them Jewish and inappropriate for Christian worship.
 
Curious that the KJV renders ἑαυτοῖς "yourselves" in Ephesians 5:19 (alone among Protestant translations in this regard), while it renders it "one another" in Colossians 3:16, along with all other translations.

Calvin's commentary on Colossians 3:16 is also interesting.

Psalms, hymns. He does not restrict the word of Christ to these particular departments, but rather intimates that all our communications should be adapted to edification, that even those which tend to hilarity may have no empty savor. "Leave to unbelievers that foolish delight which they take from ludicrous and frivolous jests and witticisms; [453] and let your communications, not merely those that are grave, but those also that are joyful and exhilarating, contain something profitable. In place of their obscene, or at least barely modest and decent, songs, it becomes you to make use of hymns and songs that sound forth God's praise." Farther, under these three terms he includes all kinds of songs. They are commonly distinguished in this way -- that a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: a hymn is properly a song of praise, whether it be sung simply with the voice or otherwise; while an ode contains not merely praises, but exhortations and other matters. He would have the songs of Christians, however, to be spiritual, not made up of frivolities and worthless trifles. For this has a connection with his argument.​
KJV or another translation is not at issue in this post.

1) this is not a post on EP. Calvin is using an argument you have heard from EP proponents here that all 3 words refer to the psalms, in which the Jews sang and used instruments in the context of temple worship. This contrasted with when he mentions “Christians”.

2) He contrasts this with the songs of Christians which should be spiritual for using instruments is frivolity and a worthless trifle. This interpretation would go with the quotes of Calvin I provided.
 
Can any historical commentators of note be cited as agreeing with the specific interpretation of 2 Chronicles 29 in the OP, or to come to the same harsh conclusion as the OP title?
 
Henry - "5. While the offerings were burning upon the altar the Levites sang the song of the Lord (2Ch_29:27), the Psalms composed by David and Asaph (2Ch_29:30), accompanied by the musical instruments which God by his prophets had commanded the use of (2Ch_29:25), and which had been long neglected. Even sorrow for sin must not put us out of tune for praising God. By faith we must rejoice in Christ Jesus as our righteousness; and our prayers and praises must ascend with his offering, to be accepted only in virtue of it."

Andrew Murray - "Notice also, in passing, that the Levites accompanied the singing with 'cymbals, harps and lyres'. These were not used to make the whole spectacle more interesting and enjoyable for those who were there. The instruments were used only as and when God commanded (29:25), and only while the sacrifice was being offered (29:28-29). The instruments were not essential for the singing of praise, but were inextricably linked to the sacrificial system."

But all the historic quotes provided already give you the interpretation as well. It is clear as day in the text brother. No need for a multitude of historical commentaries to prove it.

And a 'harsh conclusion' which is merely the a cappella view is held by all those fathers in the faith so quoted. Are you calling them harsh? They are saying the same thing in their saying it is judaizing or popish--both which continued the pattern of ceremonial temple worship instead of trusting in the final sacrifice of Christ offered.
 
And a 'harsh conclusion' which is merely the a cappella view is held by all those fathers in the faith so quoted. Are you calling them harsh?
I'm asking if any commentators express the specific view that instrumental music in worship is a denial of the final sacrifice of Christ. And yes, if that can be shown I would still say it is extremely harsh, and frankly very offensive. You may infer that's what someone "really means" from various quotes, but I would like to see it said as specifically as you do. If it's as "clear as day" as you claim, then surely someone notable would have said it just as clearly.
 
I'm asking if any commentators express the specific view that instrumental music in worship is a denial of the final sacrifice of Christ. And yes, if that can be shown I would still say it is extremely harsh, and frankly very offensive. You may infer that's what someone "really means" from various quotes, but I would like to see it said as specifically as you do. If it's as "clear as day" as you claim, then surely someone notable would have said it just as clearly.
I see. I would not dare suggest you would find it in that one passage. Not all doctrines are found in one passage (that's why we have Systematic Theology). The a capella view is held based upon an understanding of Scripture as stated from the doctrine of music in worship in 1/2 Chronicles (see also 1/2 Kings though Chronicles focuses more on music), ceremonial worship, and the fulfillment of it all in Christ (Hebrews). What I referred to as clear as day was that instruments played with singers while sacrifices were offered, and once sacrifices ceased, instruments ceased and singers kept singing. Sorry if I was not clear in that to which I was referring.

The view of denying Christ's final sacrifice by commentators and theologians is in the quotes provided in OP. Further, wasn't looking to get into a debate. Was merely stating the a cappella view for others who hold the view.
 
Yes, please discuss.

I am trying. Again, I don't see the specific point you are claiming being made in the quotes you provided. If, as I've asked, you can exegete them a little to show that they in fact do, that would seem the next step in the discussion.

I also don't understand how you still want to consider someone who denies the sacrifice of Christ, in whatever fashion and whether wittingly or otherwise, to be a Christian. How is that possible?
 
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I am trying. Again, I don't see the specific point you are claiming being made in the quotes you provided. If, as I've asked, you can exegete them a little to show that they in fact do, that would seem the next step in the discussion.

2Ch 29:25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.
2Ch 29:26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.
2Ch 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.
2Ch 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

Instruments playing, singers sing while offering being made until the burnt offering was finished. Then they stopped.

2Ch 29:29 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped.
2Ch 29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

Offering having ceased, instruments ceased, the singers were commanded to continue singing.

I also don't understand how you still want to consider someone who denies the sacrifice of Christ, in whatever fashion and whether wittingly or otherwise, to to be a Christian. How is that possible?

If your pastor broke out an altar, put on priestly garments and offered a sacrifice in front of the pulpit, I would venture to say you'd think he'd denied the final sacrifice of Christ. Musical instruments is another part of temple worship, no more no less.

Further, when you sin, you are denying Christ's final sacrifice, you are denying the gospel, you are acting like an unbeliever. Does that make you one? No. It is the same thing. It's a sin to use musical instruments in the worship of God. In this particular case, it is going back to Jewish worship of the temple, all which is done away with in Christ by His sacrifice. Now as one who does not hold to this position, a cappella, I do not expect you to understand the view. Most do not, to oppose it is often very emotional for people. It was for me when I used to hold your view. No more or less than when I was arminian.
 
What I recall is that organs were first officially allowed in the western church in the mid-600s and by the time of the Reformation were extremely common.
In 812, Charlemagne received a gift of an organ from Constantinople, which impressed the Frankish Emperor so much that he had it installed in the cathedral at Aachen. As far as I have read, this is the first known instance of an organ put to use in a church.

Organs of the period were quite unlike how we think of them today. In ancient times, primitive organs were used in stadiums (rather like a hockey organ today). After Charlemagne’s innovation, organs were used by monks to help the singers carry a tune. Over time, of course, the technology improved and tastes changed. Organs were expensive, however, and not everyone could afford to construct one, so to say they were “extremely common” would be inaccurate, I think.
 
You continue to avoid my actual question about proving the historical witness to your particular interpretation of that passage, as regards the specific point in question. I'll have to just assume it hasn't been so exegeted, and remain suspicious of it, unless shown otherwise.

Further, when you sin, you are denying Christ's final sacrifice, you are denying the gospel, you are acting like an unbeliever. Does that make you one? No. It is the same thing.

I don't totally disagree, but for a true believer I think a term like "temporarily turns from" is more biblically apt.

It's a sin to use musical instruments in the worship of God.

Here's where I believe your paradigm is compelled to take things to an untenable level. If a believer is in serious personal sin, they will turn from it when confronted by the Spirit through their conscience and the ministry of the Word. Denying the final sacrifice of Christ, in action, is an ultra serious sin in any context. Doing so via a sanctioned element of corporate worship, by a church, would surely be in a fatal realm (cf. Hebrews 6:4-6), especially among the many Christians, even in the Reformed world, who have deeply considered the arguments for and against, and yet conclude instruments in worship are biblically appropriate.

As such I think a brash declaration like you've made is a bridge too far. I can respect statements to the effect that the things one deems scripturally inappropriate in worship tend to obscure or impoverish some important truths, as I've seen various theologians do. But to in effect say that many brothers and sisters and churches represented here on the board "deny", in the commonly accepted sense of the word, the final sacrifice of our blessed Savior is beyond the pale. I suppose I can even respect if one deems such things to be idolatrous in a sense. But then I also believe that even such venerable things as true doctrine and practice can be made idolatrous if not properly conveyed and carefully handled.

Might you consider at least rephrasing your assertion?
 
You continue to avoid my actual question about proving the historical witness to your particular interpretation of that passage, as regards the specific point in question. I'll have to just assume it hasn't been so exegeted, and remain suspicious of it, unless shown otherwise.
What I have given is a summary, I gave one verse from Chronicles but not as final proof of what is an entire doctrine. I've explained that. If you want the full argument, I might suggest reading Giradeau on this subject. https://www.heritagebooks.org/produ...e-public-worship-of-the-church-girardeau.html

Here's where I believe your paradigm is compelled to take things to an untenable level. If a believer is in serious personal sin, they will turn from it when confronted by the Spirit through their conscience and the ministry of the Word. Denying the final sacrifice of Christ, in action, is an ultra serious sin in any context. Doing so via a sanctioned element of corporate worship, by a church, would surely be in a fatal realm (cf. Hebrews 6:4-6), especially among the many Christians, even in the Reformed world, who have deeply considered the arguments for and against, and yet conclude instruments in worship are biblically appropriate.

As such I think a brash declaration like you've made is a bridge too far. I can respect statements to the effect that the things one deems scripturally inappropriate in worship tend to obscure or impoverish some important truths, as I've seen various theologians do. But to in effect say that many brothers and sisters and churches represented here on the board "deny", in the commonly accepted sense of the word, the final sacrifice of our blessed Savior is beyond the pale. I suppose I can even respect if one deems such things to be idolatrous in a sense. But then I also believe that even such venerable things as true doctrine and practice can be made idolatrous if not properly conveyed and carefully handled.

Might you consider at least rephrasing your assertion?
I respect your beliefs, I once held your view. Idolatrous sure it is. I need not rephrase my assertion. Popish, Judaizing, etc. You are a brother in the Lord. I understand you do not hold the view I hold. I've given this summary for those who hold the view to show how serious the use of musical instruments is in God's worship is. Again, it is not any different if you rebuilt a temple complex and began offering sacrifices on an altar you made. This is no different than the papist view with their altar and sacrificing of Christ in the sacrament (transubstantiation). Have a blessed day, good conversation.
 
Again, it is not any different if you rebuilt a temple complex and began offering sacrifices on an altar you made.
Then according to the book of Hebrews "Christians" who use instruments in worship are eternally doomed. Good day, sir.
 
@Romans922 is there ever a time you make a post that isn't attacking someone personally or calling a large group of people heretics?

A lot of your posts essentially boil down to you letting everyone else know they aren't as good of a Christian as you. Apparently you are the standard. No matter what rhetorical leaps you attempt to make the previous post is right. If you say someone is denying Christ then they are lost. So apparently the majority of those calling themselves Christians are lost eternally. I will go and let me pastor know we are all damned because of this guy on the internet and get back to you on what he says.
 
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In Church History, the vast majority of the Church did not use musical instruments in public worship until the popularization of it through Moody's revivals in the 19th Century (the Jewish Synagogue didn't until 1950). There are examples of use before this but not in a lot of churches.

Not directly tied to musical instruments but an important point. Exclusive Psalmody was the normal approach to singing up until the 4th Century. The Christians between the initiation of the New Covenant up until the 4th Century sang only the Psalms and included a few extra songs found in the Gospels and in Revelation. It wasn't until the 4th Century that man-made music was introduced and it was first credited by Arius (Heretic).
 
@Romans922 is there ever a time you make a post that isn't attacking someone personally or calling a large group of people heretics?

A lot of your posts essentially boil down to you letting everyone else know they aren't as good of a Christian as you. Apparently you are the standard. No matter what rhetorical leaps you attempt to make the previous post is right. If you say someone is denying Christ then they are lost. So apparently the majority of those calling themselves Christians are lost eternally. I will go and let me pastor know we are all damned because of this guy on the internet and get back to you on what he says.
I’m attacking no one brother. I’m summarizing the a cappella view for those who hold it for their benefit and help. I’ve also never said anyone was less of a Christian if they did not hold my views. I’ve never said anyone is denying Christ. No one here is perfect including myself.
 
I’m attacking no one brother. I’m summarizing the a cappella view for those who hold it for their benefit and help. I’ve also never said anyone was less of a Christian if they did not hold my views. I’ve never said anyone is denying Christ. No one here is perfect including myself.
That is a special kind of obtuseness to think that your OP is not an attack piece. Might I say it is tone deaf?
 
Further, when you sin, you are denying Christ's final sacrifice, you are denying the gospel, you are acting like an unbeliever.
If all sin denies Christ's final sacrifice, then why make a special point of saying that instruments in worship deny the final sacrifice? By saying it in the OP, you are saying that it denies Christ's sacrifice in a special way. For you then to back off and say, "No, all sin does this," is a deceptive bait and switch.
 
That is a special kind of obtuseness to think that your OP is not an attack piece. Might I say it is tone deaf?
Pastor Barnes made in the OP itself clear what he meant, and has stated more than a few times with further clarification with the above questions. I don't think his post is tone deaf, as much as others have selective hearing.

If all sin denies Christ's final sacrifice, then why make a special point of saying that instruments in worship deny the final sacrifice? By saying it in the OP, you are saying that it denies Christ's sacrifice in a special way. For you then to back off and say, "No, all sin does this," is a deceptive bait and switch.
All sin denies Christ's sacrifice, yes. The reason there is a peculiarity to musical accompaniment in worship especially denying the design of Christ (if you will) is because the ceremonial aspects of temple worship was to be terminated in him; since the body has come, we no longer embrace the shadows. That is why Pastor Barnes continued to liken it unto reintroducing incense, an altar, and so on.

Obviously, those of Scottish Presbyterian persuasion view musical accompaniment in this manner (agree or disagree, not my point) – that is why there is a peculiarity to the mention of musical instruments, because we view it as reintroducing what Christ sought to put to an end. It is the same thing with a multiplicity of feast days in the Old Covenant, whereas the New has the simplicity of one Sabbath as the only Holy Day. What the Westminster says of Covenant, is what can also be said about the ceremonial rites of the Old Testament waxing away.

"..under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all fore-signifying Christ to come, which were for that time sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah.. – [speaking of the New Covenant] ..which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy"
 
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If all sin denies Christ's final sacrifice, then why make a special point of saying that instruments in worship deny the final sacrifice? By saying it in the OP, you are saying that it denies Christ's sacrifice in a special way. For you then to back off and say, "No, all sin does this," is a deceptive bait and switch.
It is in a special or different way. More clearly is a good way to describe it since musical instruments are part of the temple, and we all agree Christ’s sacrifice ended the temple ceremonies in all its parts. Obviously not all thoughts, words, and actions in which we sin were part of the temple.

You obviously don’t agree, you might not like the conclusion, but that doesn’t mean it is an attack. It is a defense. I don’t think of anyone less or question anyone’s salvation due to their belief in favor of using musical instruments. Most people I would say in the reformed world (wrongly) characterize them as circumstances. This is why I addressed that in the OP. If it is to be labeled an ‘attack’ then it is an attack on Judaism and Popish Ceremonies. There is a reason Calvin, Rutherford, Cameron, etc. call it Jewish. If that involves people here so be it. This is the Puritanboard, this is the Puritan view.
 
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The OP implies that people singing with instruments are denying Christ. Am I reading the original OP incorrectly?
The OP implies nothing but states clearly what is meant -
The use of musical instruments in the public worship of the Church is a denial of Christ's final sacrifice. Just the same as if we used an altar today and sacrificed an animal upon it in Christ's worship. [NOTE: This is not saying that those who use musical instruments are not Christians [ADDED: or deny Christ]. Only that the use of musical instruments does deny Christ's sacrifice.].
 
[NOTE: This is not saying that those who use musical instruments are not Christians [ADDED: or deny Christ]. Only that the use of musical instruments does deny Christ's sacrifice.].
This is pure semantic sophistry. How does one deny Christ's final sacrifice - the very reason for God taking on flesh - without denying Christ in any effectual way whatsoever?
 
2Ch 29:25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.
2Ch 29:26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.
2Ch 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.
2Ch 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

Instruments playing, singers sing while offering being made until the burnt offering was finished. Then they stopped.

2Ch 29:29 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped.
2Ch 29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

Offering having ceased, instruments ceased, the singers were commanded to continue singing.



If your pastor broke out an altar, put on priestly garments and offered a sacrifice in front of the pulpit, I would venture to say you'd think he'd denied the final sacrifice of Christ. Musical instruments is another part of temple worship, no more no less.

Further, when you sin, you are denying Christ's final sacrifice, you are denying the gospel, you are acting like an unbeliever. Does that make you one? No. It is the same thing. It's a sin to use musical instruments in the worship of God. In this particular case, it is going back to Jewish worship of the temple, all which is done away with in Christ by His sacrifice. Now as one who does not hold to this position, a cappella, I do not expect you to understand the view. Most do not, to oppose it is often very emotional for people. It was for me when I used to hold your view. No more or less than when I was arminian.
Andrew,
I'm not following your argument here. There are numerous occasions in the Old Testament where Levitical instrumentation and song did not specifically accompany sacrifice (e.g. 2 Chron 20; Neh 12). In other places, sacrifices and musical worship are side by side but it isn't obvious that when one ceases the other ceases also. Nor is that necessarily clear from the passage in 2 Chron 29: many interpreters simply assume that when the Levites started singing again, so too the musical instruments would have joined them. It would be helpful if you could point to commentators who specifically share your interpretation of the passage.

Not everything associated with the temple and sacrifice is necessarily ceremonial law; benediction, for example. The case has to be built exegetically as to why this particular element is ceremonial law. And if something is ceremonial law, you have to demonstrate convincingly what the antitype is - how specifically does this ordinance point forward to Christ? Gillespie is aware of that; his answer is that the instruments point forward to the joy of the New Covenant. I find that unconvincing, since joy was present (and represented by instruments also under the worship old covenant).
 
This is pure semantic sophistry. How does one deny Christ's final sacrifice - the very reason for God taking on flesh - without denying Christ in any effectual way whatsoever?
Asked by you multiple times, answered not to your satisfaction by me. I suggest we both move on from going in circles. Jerrod has also explained it in post 24. I infer from this that that also is not sufficient for you. That's okay. We are still brothers.
 
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