Must we always forgive - even if God doesn't?

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Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
God doesn't forgive everyone. Some people end up in hell. God does not forgive Satan and the fallen angels.


Must we then forgive everyone at all times?

Or if this belief a product of today's over-psychologized Christianity?

Many say we must forgive everyone who wrongs us, even if there is no repentance. I have always stated that if there is no repentence then there needs to be no forgiveness.

Also, it seems that even if one must forgive all Christians, that one does not need to forgive blatant sinners who are unsaved and enemies of God.

Many Christians state the psychological benefits of forgiveness and they assert that unforgiveness make embitter one's heart. But, there seems to be a difference between active bitterness and lack of forgiveness.

What think ye?
 
In the bigger context of things I think we should seek for reconciliation and be willing to forgive. We shouldn't pretend to be more forgiving than God.

(Luk 17:3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

(Luk 17:4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

I don't know how you can forgive something that someone doesn't want you to forgive.

Jay Adam's has a great book on this called From forgiven to forgiving.

Here is a link to something by him on the topic.

http://www.nouthetic.org/blog/?p=2544
 
Vengeance belongs to the Lord. Avenge not yourselves. It is that desire to take vengeance, even just verbally, that generally trips Christians up. You know when the disciples wanted to call down fire from heaven? Jesus rebuked them. I know what it is like to want an asteroid to land on somebody, even when I thought I had forgiven them.

Jesus said to pray for those who mistreat you. If a person is not at the place where they can pray for the person despitefully using them, they are in the wrong.

If you get these two areas right- not taking vengeance, and praying for the evildoer, the forgiveness bit usually takes care of itself.
 
God forgives no one who does not/will not repent. We cannot elevate His standard and say that we must forgive no matter what the other person does. The Scriptures tell us, "If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." If a person sins against us and repents, we, of course, must forgive him. If he does not repent, we cannot forgive him, any more than God forgives those who do not repent.

That does not mean that bitterness or a vengeful spirit is acceptable, however.
 
I confess that the portion of my being that wants to feel justified in being resentful or holding a grudge is drawn to say "sure! sometimes it is ok to not forgive."

It is true that there is an element in forgiveness that is contingent upon the offending party seeking forgiveness.

What God does is up to God. But God has called us to forgive. But as has been pointed out I can't "do" that unless and until the offending person seeks forgiveness. But sometimes that can come across like we're saying that until that person seeks forgiveness it is ok for us to be unforgiving.

Someone tell me: Within myself as an offended person, what is the functional difference between having a forgiving heart and having forgiven someone? Again, I'm not asking about the effect on the offending person, I'm referencing what goes on internally: my attitude, my mood, my behavior towards that person, etc. Functionally, what is the difference?
 
I agree with Ben and I believe he poses an excellent question. For example, Dr Kistler says,
If he does not repent, we cannot forgive him, any more than God forgives those who do not repent. That does not mean that bitterness or a vengeful spirit is acceptable, however.

With all due respect, the above seems like a bit of a contradiction. Or at least it would be for me. When I am wronged, my wicked heart goes to a place of bitterness. It is only when I choose to forgive the offender that this bitterness is alleviated. How does one not have bitter or venegeful feelings without forgiving?
 
Ben,

One of the reasons for my OP is that many evangelicals almost cast blame on Christians that assert that no repentance=no need for forgiveness. I believe they are more influenced by modern over-psychologized notions in the church than the bible doctrine of forgiveness.

While a spirit of unforgiveness might be due to bitterness that eats one up inside, and it might be psychologically healthy to forgive even when one does not "have to" - I have heard some christians rebuke others for expressing a hesitancy at the need to forgive an unrepentent sinner.

But, it seems that if they do not repent, then the wronged party has no obligation to forgive. And to assert otherwise would be to cast blame on a God that does likewise.

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

I agree with Ben and I believe he poses an excellent question. For example, Dr Kistler says,
If he does not repent, we cannot forgive him, any more than God forgives those who do not repent. That does not mean that bitterness or a vengeful spirit is acceptable, however.

With all due respect, the above seems like a bit of a contradiction. Or at least it would be for me. When I am wronged, my wicked heart goes to a place of bitterness. It is only when I choose to forgive the offender that this bitterness is alleviated. How does one not have bitter or venegeful feelings without forgiving?

You seem to be focused on the psychology and emotions of all of this, whereas I am focused on the real objective guilt of the matter.
 
Ben,

One of the reasons for my OP is that many evangelicals almost cast blame on Christians that assert that no repentance=no need for forgiveness. I believe they are more influenced by modern over-psychologized notions in the church than the bible doctrine of forgiveness.

While a spirit of unforgiveness might be due to bitterness that eats one up inside, and it might be psychologically healthy to forgive even when one does not "have to" - I have heard some christians rebuke others for expressing a hesitancy at the need to forgive an unrepentent sinner.

But, it seems that if they do not repent, then the wronged party has no obligation to forgive. And to assert otherwise would be to cast blame on a God that does likewise.

I strongly discourage you from your apparent attempt to justify a creaturely "non-forgivenes" with what God does. God is a different being than us, and our forgiveness is not as God's. For example, God doesn't just "wipe the slate clean" or "cancel a perceived right to get even" (or however you want to define human forgiveness) as we are called to do. With God there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. God doesn't just "let it go" when someone messes up and then says "please forgive me." No, unless Christ shed his blood for that person, that person would be forever condemned. For us, we don't do that. God doesn't forgive as one fallen creature to another as we do. So don't treat "forgiveness" in regards to God univocally with "forgiveness" in regards to us.

What would bearing "I'm not forgiving that person until he/she seeks forgiveness" look like in our soul? Basically, all I see is an excuse to harbor resentment or anger or a sense of victimization.

Anyway, to my question again - what is the functional difference within myself (as a creature for whom forgiveness is not contingent upon perfect justice) of having a "forgiving attitude" and forgiving the person?

I posit that in regards to my disposition there is no practical difference without a lapse into sin.
 
I agree with Ben and I believe he poses an excellent question. For example, Dr Kistler says,
If he does not repent, we cannot forgive him, any more than God forgives those who do not repent. That does not mean that bitterness or a vengeful spirit is acceptable, however.

With all due respect, the above seems like a bit of a contradiction. Or at least it would be for me. When I am wronged, my wicked heart goes to a place of bitterness. It is only when I choose to forgive the offender that this bitterness is alleviated. How does one not have bitter or venegeful feelings without forgiving?

You seem to be focused on the psychology and emotions of all of this, whereas I am focused on the real objective guilt of the matter.
 
I agree with Ben and I believe he poses an excellent question. For example, Dr Kistler says,
If he does not repent, we cannot forgive him, any more than God forgives those who do not repent. That does not mean that bitterness or a vengeful spirit is acceptable, however.

With all due respect, the above seems like a bit of a contradiction. Or at least it would be for me. When I am wronged, my wicked heart goes to a place of bitterness. It is only when I choose to forgive the offender that this bitterness is alleviated. How does one not have bitter or venegeful feelings without forgiving?

You seem to be focused on the psychology and emotions of all of this, whereas I am focused on the real objective guilt of the matter.

Okay, fair enough, but I would assert as human beings we are created with emotions that we cannot divorce ourselves from so I think my question is still a valid one.
 
I agree with Ben and I believe he poses an excellent question. For example, Dr Kistler says,
If he does not repent, we cannot forgive him, any more than God forgives those who do not repent. That does not mean that bitterness or a vengeful spirit is acceptable, however.

With all due respect, the above seems like a bit of a contradiction. Or at least it would be for me. When I am wronged, my wicked heart goes to a place of bitterness. It is only when I choose to forgive the offender that this bitterness is alleviated. How does one not have bitter or venegeful feelings without forgiving?

We are not to be bitter but loving. Being loving is not the same thing as releasing someone from their debt of trespassing. We are to seek reconciliation. We are to guard against bitterness as Hebrews 12 states. I see no contradiction in Elder Kistler's remarks.

This passage might be of some help here.

(Mat 18:11) For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

(Mat 18:12) How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

(Mat 18:13) And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

(Mat 18:14) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

(Mat 18:15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

(Mat 18:16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

(Mat 18:17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

(Mat 18:18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(Mat 18:19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

(Mat 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

(Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

(Heb 12:12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

(Heb 12:13) And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

(Heb 12:14) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

(Heb 12:15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

(Eph 4:31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

(Eph 4:32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Forgive as Christ has forgiven you.....

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
 
I didn't take the time to read every post so this may have already been mentioned, but I think the way we relate to each other is not completely analogous to God's relations to us. Since our sins against God deserve an eternal punishment, and it is His free grace and mercy that is poured out on undeserving sinners that would NEVER HAVE ASKED FOR IT in and of our own strength. God doesn't save people because they're repentant, but He saves them and then they are repentant. Right? If forgiveness is only given to those that ask for it than we ourselves would be disqualified for we were once dead in our sins and unable to stop sinning or repent. So comparing ourselves to God and saying, "well He doesn't forgive everyone" isn't a license to do the same. I wrote this very fast...
 
Also important to mention is that God is judge of the world. That is an office that we never hold. Because He is judge there is a justice which He must carry out. We do not act as judge of the world. In light of this, and many scriptures, I think it is right for us to forgive when wronged.

The answer to the question, "Why does God ask us to do something that He does not do?" is:
-He does not. He, as judge, does not forgive certain people. He does not act us to stand in the office of judge and condemn people. He asks us to relate to our fellow creation with forgiveness when wronged.

Hope this is helpful.

God bless
--Ben
 
We ought always have a heart that is willing to forgive, but there can be no forgiveness if the sinning party is unwilling to repent. Our viking brother's post was helpful, and so is Adams' book on forgiveness. I admit that I wasn't very sure about this matter until I moved to Kentucky, but the pastors here persuaded me of this position. It is easy to say that God's forgiveness is not analogous to our forgiveness, but is there an instance in scripture where a man was "forgiven," whether by God or another man when repentance was not present? Is there any clear statement that this set of circumstances would be acceptable? If these are absent in the Word, I'm inclined to think that "forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you" (Eph. 4:32) is a model of not only the loving disposition of forgiveness but the necessary prerequisite of repentance on the part of the offender. And if this is the case, there is clarity on why there are examples of repentance and then forgiveness in Scripture.
 
Luke 17:3 "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."

Does that forgiveness not sound conditional upon repentance?
 
Luke 17:3 "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."

How about looking at this verse and:

Provebs 19:11 - Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

or

1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

Remember we are supposed to love others:

1 Corinthians 13:7 - Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I believe that you can forgive without the other person accepting your forgiveness. I agree with Andres:

When I am wronged, my wicked heart goes to a place of bitterness. It is only when I choose to forgive the offender that this bitterness is alleviated. How does one not have bitter or vengeful feelings without forgiving?
 
Robert, I also notice how none of those verses mention forgiveness and can be aptly applied without giving forgiveness where repentance is unwilling. To the question, "How does one not have bitter or vengeful feelings without forgiving?" may be answered by saying that there is a difference between a heart that is willing to forgive and a heart that does forgive. Forgiveness is given after the repentance of the offender, but if someone is unwilling to repent we are obligated by the law of Christ to be utterly willing to forgive if the person would change his mind, and we ought to pray for the person to do so. Just because I love my enemy does not make him any less guilty of his sin.
We can likewise remember that we are worse sinners than we know; we have done wicked deeds just as our offender has done! Therefore, while we recognize that the offender has sinned against us and against God, we must remember that we are in as much need of the gospel as this other person. Self-driven anger ought to be extinguished, while love should overflow and be manifest in our pleading with that person for repentance and prayers for him. Righteous anger has its place as well. Regardless, unless the person has repented, there cannot be forgiveness while the offender is unwilling to be forgiven because of the state of continued sinfulness.
Again, are there any clear statements or examples from scripture of an unrepentant man that is forgiven? Please do mention it or them if you are aware of any. As it stands for me, there are only examples of forgiveness conditioned upon repentance and principles of godly character that demand a willingness to forgive.
 
Luke 17:3 "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."

Does that forgiveness not sound conditional upon repentance?

The point is simply to not withhold forgiveness.

That said, I see plenty examples of my point:

Luke 23:33–35 (ESV)
33 And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. 34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments. 35 And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!”

(For Jesus to have that attitude and to petition his Father to forgive them, what does that say about Jesus' own disposition towards them? I'll give you a clue: He wasn't waiting for them to repent.)

Acts 7:59–60 (ESV)
59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

(Again, why on earth would Stephen say this if he wasn't to forgive unless and until they repented? Here's a pastoral clue: For me to ask God to not hold a sin against someone means that I'm saying, "Lord, I don't hold it as a sin against me.")

I'm sure that someone is going to argue, that's what happens, but I still challenge someone to tell me how for YOU as an offended party, internally and not in regards to them, how does it look to have a forgiving spirit towards someone who hasn't repented and how does it look to have "actually" forgiven them?

I posit that in terms of my attitude and disposition, they are identical.
 
Ben, I appreciate what you're saying, but there remains an issue: Acts 2:23-38 shows that repentance was necessary for the forgiveness of the sins of those who "crucified and killed" (v. 23) Christ. Much could be said about Jesus' and Stephen's cries, but it is clear that the offenders were not forgiven, though the victims were willing and desirous of that forgiveness. The same is what I am espousing. We ought to cry to God for the forgiveness of those who sin against us, but we must also realize that it will not happen unless the sinner repents. This is what Jesus and Stephen demonstrate.

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 PM ----------

Brother Robert, I am going to go to bed, but I will perhaps respond tomorrow about 1 Peter 4:8, unless someone else responds. You're right, that is a verse that needs to be considered. Have a blessed night.
 
There is forgiveness and then there is standing ready to forgive. When have a forgiving attitude, there are two things that we are saying about the one who needs forgiveness.

1. Christ's sacrifice was not enough for that person if he is saved or will yet be saved.

2. God's just wrath will take care of that person who is not in Christ. God says, "Vengeance is mine."
 
When Jesus said on the Cross "Father forgive them" I believe that every single prayer of Jesus to the Father was granted. Thus, all those for whom Christ prayed were, in fact, forgiven and saved.
 
Pergamum,

I assume that you continue to have a discussion on this board because you invite arguments for and against your ideas. This is a good forum for it. Therefore, I will take he liberty of disagreeing with your last statement.

Not every prayer of Jesus was granted. A good example would be his prayers in the garden; that if there be any other way than that he should die on he cross... He sought God the Father's will three times.

However, I think I understand your (perhaps) underlying points. 1. Jesus prays perfectly. 2. Jesus is all loving.
 
Ben, I appreciate what you're saying, but there remains an issue: Acts 2:23-38 shows that repentance was necessary for the forgiveness of the sins of those who "crucified and killed" (v. 23) Christ. Much could be said about Jesus' and Stephen's cries, but it is clear that the offenders were not forgiven, though the victims were willing and desirous of that forgiveness.


Andrew - There's forgiveness as a restoration of a relationship (involving the repentance of the offender) and there's forgiveness as the decision on the part of the offended to to not hold the offense against the offended (which involves only the offended). Jesus and Stephen clearly indicate the legitimacy of the latter.

Not a single proponent of your view has even bothered to engage my question, and for me that is telling.

So, like a broken record, I'll say it again: In regards to my disposition and my attitude as an offended person, what is the difference practically between having a "forgiving attitude" and actually forgiving the offender?

Case study:

A man comes home from work and doesn't notice all the hard work his wife did around the house. Instead he notices the one thing she forgot to do and he criticizes her for it. She responds by lashing out and saying some mean things. A while later the man comes to his senses and apologizes to his wife seeking her forgiveness for his critical attitude. She responds not by apologizing for her own sinful words, but by "letting him have an ear full" about how she worked so hard all day long and he didn't appreciate her, etc... And not once during this does she express any intent to repent or recant her sinful words.

Now: the husband has repented, and the wife responded by adding to her original sinful response even more sinful words as well as an apparent unwillingness to grant forgiveness to the husband even though he's repented, expressed contrition, and asked for forgiveness.

So: In light of your model of "no forgiveness until/unless the offender repents" how does the husband treat the wife until such time as she obeys Christ and grants forgiveness to the person seeking it and until she repents of her own sinful words? How does their marriage look until she repents? What if, in her sin, she DOESN'T seek his forgiveness? Does he become distant and judging? Does he nag her about needing to repent?

My model, the model of Jesus and Stephen (and others), is that he just lets it go knowing that ultimately her debt is with God, not me.
 
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Ben, I appreciate what you're saying, but there remains an issue: Acts 2:23-38 shows that repentance was necessary for the forgiveness of the sins of those who "crucified and killed" (v. 23) Christ. Much could be said about Jesus' and Stephen's cries, but it is clear that the offenders were not forgiven, though the victims were willing and desirous of that forgiveness.

First, what do you "appreciate" about what I'm saying?

Now that I'm at work I briefly want to challenge you on this. Misuse of Acts 2:23-38 to try to wipe away the thrust of Luke 23. I think you're wrong - comparing apples to oranges.

The only ones at the crucifixion operating in ignorance were the soldiers doing the crucifying. In Acts 2:23-38 Peter's thrust was that Jesus was rejected in knowledge (the rejection occurs after and inspite of Jesus' signs and wonders) and it is THEY, not the Roman soldiers, who are given the blame. In fact, as far as I can recall in every "you killed Jesus" speech in Acts, the thrust is that the Jews acted with knowledge. In fact, I think it is telling that in the Bible the Romans are only ever given "credit" as pawns. The ones consistently "blamed" for Jesus' crucifixion are the Jews.

So, when Jesus prays in Luke 23:33-35, the only ones in view in the context are the ones just doing their job of carrying out the execution.

Further - to address Pergy's comment - I don't like when folks try to explain Jesus' comments here by trying to absolutize what is immediate. One can be forgiven a particular sin while still having a whole pile of other sins for which one is accountable. Nothing about Jesus words necessitates a notion that these soldiers for whom he prays are suddenly absolved for every other sin they ever commit.
 
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There is forgiveness and then there is standing ready to forgive. When have a forgiving attitude, there are two things that we are saying about the one who needs forgiveness.

1. Christ's sacrifice was not enough for that person if he is saved or will yet be saved.

2. God's just wrath will take care of that person who is not in Christ. God says, "Vengeance is mine."

OOPS!

I mis-spoke myself. What I meant to say is when we have a forgiving attitude, there are two things that we are saying about the one who needs forgiveness.

1. Christ's sacrifice is enough for that person if he is saved or will yet be saved.

2. God's just wrath will take care of that person who is not in Christ. God says, "Vengeance is mine."
 
Forgiveness is dismissing a debt. In the New Testament, the Greek noun aphesis denotes a "dismissal" or "release." When you grant forgiveness, you dismiss the debt owed to you. When you receive forgiveness, your debt is dismissed. When you grant forgiveness, you dismiss the debt from your thoughts. Forgiveness is dismissing your demand that others owe you something, especially when they fail to meet your expectations... fail to keep a promise... fail to treat you justly.

That said, forgiveness is not

- circumventing God's justice
- waiting for time to heal all wounds
- letting the guilty off the hook
- the same thing as reconciliation
- excusing unjust behavior
- explaining away the hurt
- based on what is fair
- being a weak martyr
- stuffing your anger
- a natural response
- denying the hurt
- being a doormat
- conditional (God mandates it!)
- forgetting
- a feeling....

God commands us to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of the will, it is not some emotion.

AMR
 
Patrick,

Your thoughts were provocative enough to help me see that I may be confusing reconciliation and forgiveness. I looked up that Greek word for forgiveness in my TDNT and found that the emphasis of the meaning of that word is to release and remit--a letting go. So much is this the emphasis of this word that it lends itself to be used in ways that do not pertain to forgiveness.

I know others on here are leaning toward thinking that forgiveness must be a two-way operation like reconciliation. However, I am now leaning toward understanding forgiveness to be one way with man.
 
Not a single proponent of your view has even bothered to engage my question, and for me that is telling.

Go figure you would assume. I just haven't been paying attention. LOL. What about Matthew 18 where if the gentleman or person does not hear. We are to consider him a certain way. How is that forgiveness? So are you implying there is forgiveness and then their is forgiveness? Now that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep loving and trying to reconcile the man or not be kind and compassionate toward him.

So, like a broken record, I'll say it again: In regards to my disposition and my attitude as an offended person, what is the difference practically between having a "forgiving attitude" and actually forgiving the offender?

One is the actual seeking attitude of love. The other is the actual sense in where the debt is released. Can we release someone from their debt when Go doesn't? I don't think so. We can put it aside and hand it over to Christ. I absolutely love Proverbs 19:11. Pro 19:11 The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression. I am not sure this is forgiveness as much as loving. But then again. We cast all our care an burdens upon Christ because He cares for us as 1 Peter 5:7 states. After all. When a person sins they ultimately sin against God. And that is where the bar must be met.

Now hear is a place that this question can lead to and where the limitations can be stretched. If we sinned a long time ago and don't remember it and haven't confessed it does that mean it isn't forgiven? There are some serious implications for this thought. And that is where this question might take an about face for some of this discussion. But at the same time Ben, you can't ignore the other passages that also require a repentance or a condition to be met. You seem to be shoving them under the rug. JMO.
 
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