Must we always forgive - even if God doesn't?

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Pergamum,

I assume that you continue to have a discussion on this board because you invite arguments for and against your ideas. This is a good forum for it. Therefore, I will take he liberty of disagreeing with your last statement.

Not every prayer of Jesus was granted. A good example would be his prayers in the garden; that if there be any other way than that he should die on he cross... He sought God the Father's will three times.

However, I think I understand your (perhaps) underlying points. 1. Jesus prays perfectly. 2. Jesus is all loving.

I will start another OP about this important issue. I believe that the Father hears and grants every single petition of Jesus.
 
I would like to engage this more but I don't have much time to handle this adequately. Let me just throw out some things for consideration:

1) In human relationships, there are sins that demand repentance and sins that don't, depending on the nature of the sin.
2) Sins that demand repentance cannot be forgiven until the offender has repented, and these types of sins are of a nature that split fellowship and cause a damaged relationship. Here we consider Matt. 18, Lk. 17, etc.
3) Sins that don't demand repentance are relatively insignificant matters that don't need a rebuke or confrontation.
4) Both Adams and MacArthur agree on number 3, but MacArthur calls that forgiveness and Adams says it is not forgiveness, though 1 Peter 4:8 is used by both.

Do what you will with that information.
 
Patrick,

Your thoughts were provocative enough to help me see that I may be confusing reconciliation and forgiveness. I looked up that Greek word for forgiveness in my TDNT and found that the emphasis of the meaning of that word is to release and remit--a letting go. So much is this the emphasis of this word that it lends itself to be used in ways that do not pertain to forgiveness.

I know others on here are leaning toward thinking that forgiveness must be a two-way operation like reconciliation. However, I am now leaning toward understanding forgiveness to be one way with man.

I think you are on the right track, Jon. Ben's comments resonate with my own views, so there are a few of us here who see things differently than others.

AMR
 
God doesn't forgive everyone. Some people end up in hell. God does not forgive Satan and the fallen angels.


Must we then forgive everyone at all times?
In my view, the answer to this is Yes.

Or if this belief a product of today's over-psychologized Christianity?
No.

Many say we must forgive everyone who wrongs us, even if there is no repentance. I have always stated that if there is no repentence then there needs to be no forgiveness.
I disagree.

Reason: Jesus commands us to ask the Father to "Forgive our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors." Matt. 6:12.
If we want God to forgive our sins completely we must also "have forgiven" all those who sinned against us.
This is not necessarily reconciling with enemies, a Matt. 18 situation may result as the end of disagreements among Christians and Paul issues a qualified not absolute command: "if possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all" (Rom.12L:18) which governs our relationships with non-believers.
Problem: our sense of justice does not like the seeming injustice involved, but
Solution: that sin that the sinner never seeks reconcilliation for will be paid for, either by Jesus death being applied to the sinner by faith or the sinner in Hell who rejected Jesus' payment for that sin.

Many Christians state the psychological benefits of forgiveness and they assert that unforgiveness make embitter one's heart. But, there seems to be a difference between active bitterness and lack of forgiveness.

Lack of forgiveness is to bitterness as cause is to effect.
 
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Lack of forgiveness is to bitterness as cause is to effect.

I have to agree. Unforgiveness means holding something over someone's head. It is impossible to hold something over someone and not mentally and emotionally follow in kind.

I wonder if the claim that repentance is necessary is coming from a view where a person in authority forgives someone under his care. In that case repentance is needful to restore the proper recognition of authority. It is not needed in the case of equals. Certainly familiarity is affected by sin amongst equals, but one can forgive without having to be familiar and trusting again. Where repentance and confession were forthcoming there would be a basis for restoring a trusting relationship.
 
So do we then posit different moralities for God and man?

God can refuse to forgive but man can't lest he sin?
 
BTW, I can be persuaded that I am incorrect on this issue. I am not going to be dogmatic about my understanding. I need to consider the whole counsel of God on this. This has been a good discussion. I appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Please continue on.

I would just like to know if Proverbs 19:11 is an attitude of Love or is it forgiveness among equals? And how do we take into account the record of Matthew 18 and the phrase 'if he repent?'

Pro 19:11 The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression.
 
So do we then posit different moralities for God and man?

God can refuse to forgive but man can't lest he sin?


I've already addressed this.

---------- Post added at 07:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 AM ----------

I'm glad the distinction between reconciliation and forgiveness has been brought up. I realize that in the vernacular we - I - tend to use "forgiveness" to refer to both ideas, but in reality they are distinct concepts.

For example, take the case of adultery...

Both Scripture, and my confession of faith, agree that if my wife commits adultery I am allowed to divorce her (I'd add that I am allowed to divorce her even if she's remorseful and on her knees begging me to try to work it out).

Though I'm allowed to divorce, I am to forgive. If reconciliation and forgiveness are one and the same then to divorce would necessarily indicate lack of forgiveness. But as it is, the fact that I must forgive though I retain the right to divorce indicates that forgiveness and reconciliation are not identical nor necessarily attendant concepts.

Randy - your question... reflect on what I wrote about divorce and forgiveness above, reflect on 2 Sam 12:13-14, etc.

One thing is sure: Matt 18 is not to be overwrought to imply that because Jesus says to "let them be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector" that he is also commanding the contempt and loathing with which Jews typically regarded these groups. And since that is true, is it not true that it is possible that our entire disposition is one of personal forgiveness and compassion and love even as we exercise discipline?
 
I'm glad the distinction between reconciliation and forgiveness has been brought up. I realize that in the vernacular we - I - tend to use "forgiveness" to refer to both ideas, but in reality they are distinct concepts.

For example, take the case of adultery...

Both Scripture, and my confession of faith, agree that if my wife commits adultery I am allowed to divorce her (I'd add that I am allowed to divorce her even if she's remorseful and on her knees begging me to try to work it out).

Though I'm allowed to divorce, I am to forgive. If reconciliation and forgiveness are one and the same then to divorce would necessarily indicate lack of forgiveness. But as it is, the fact that I must forgive though I retain the right to divorce indicates that forgiveness and reconciliation are not identical nor necessarily attendant concepts.

Randy - your question... reflect on what I wrote about divorce and forgiveness above, reflect on 2 Sam 12:13-14, etc.

One thing is sure: Matt 18 is not to be overwrought to imply that because Jesus says to "let them be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector" that he is also commanding the contempt and loathing with which Jews typically regarded these groups. And since that is true, is it not true that it is possible that our entire disposition is one of personal forgiveness and compassion and love even as we exercise discipline?

I understand that there is no loathing permitted Ben. That is why I have been making known the distinction and command that we are to be loving and seeking their pardon and reconciliation even after. Remember what I asked and fully wrote?

What about Matthew 18 where if the gentleman or person does not hear. We are to consider him a certain way. How is that forgiveness? So are you implying there is forgiveness and then their is forgiveness? Now that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep loving and trying to reconcile the man or not be kind and compassionate toward him.

We are not to be bitter but loving. Being loving is not the same thing as releasing someone from their debt of trespassing. We are to seek reconciliation. We are to guard against bitterness as Hebrews 12 states.

But that is not forgiveness is it?


Ben,

Doesn't forgiveness have a distinction of removing the offense and pardoning to the place of no longer remembering the offense thus removing the consequences of the offense?
 
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(2Sa 12:13) And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

(2Sa 12:14) Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

I am considering this passage in light of what you said Ben. I would say this. I still believe that there is chastisement. There is a consequence to sin. But David was not cut off nor was he divorced as in your previous statement. He repented and the Lord restored the relationship. And David even proved his repentance and accepted the chastisement. He went on to warn others of the consequences of sin so that they would in turn be converted and walk with God.

(Psa 51:13) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

(Psa 103:12) As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
 
But David was not cut off nor was he divorced as in your previous statement.

I didn't say he was divorced. The divorce topic was an entirely different example.

But as you note, he was chastized - he was disciplined. Yet prior to the discipline he was forgiven - The LORD had put away his sin.

Did you read my case study? It isn't really fictitious. I've heard this type of situation played out in counseling sessions not to mention my own life... How should the husband respond?

See, as has been noted by myself and others, for us creatures dealing with other creatures, the act of forgiving in the sense of releasing someone from the debt they owe, that occurs entirely within myself and is in no way contingent upon the offending person. There may be consequences and the relationship may not be reconciled, but in terms of my disposition towards that person, I've let it go.
 
But David was not cut off nor was he divorced as in your previous statement.

I didn't say he was divorced. The divorce topic was an entirely different example.

But as you note, he was chastized - he was disciplined. Yet prior to the discipline he was forgiven - The LORD had put away his sin.

Did you read my case study? It isn't really fictitious. I've heard this type of situation played out in counseling sessions not to mention my own life... How should the husband respond?

See, as has been noted by myself and others, for us creatures dealing with other creatures, the act of forgiving in the sense of releasing someone from the debt they owe, that occurs entirely within myself and is in no way contingent upon the offending person. There may be consequences and the relationship may not be reconciled, but in terms of my disposition towards that person, I've let it go.

Thanks Ben for bearing with us. Yes, I read your case study. It isn't infallible though. Just because the situation was led the way it was doesn't mean it was the correct way. That is why I mentioned David. He wasn't divorced from God and he responded correctly in the reconciliation (the forgiveness process didn't include divorce). Yes, I understand that you can let it go. But what do you let it go to? Nothingness? I think that is what you are saying. I would think it more biblical to release it to the care and judgment of God as it is truly to be rendered. That isn't necessarily releasing the person totally. That is rendering it to God's care. That is why I wondered if Psalm 19:11 is relative to this discussion.

I still don't think you have dealt with my questions properly concerning Matthew 18 and the implications of 'If He Repent'. Just my humble opinion.
 
Yes, I read your case study. It isn't infallible though. Just because the situation was led the way it was doesn't mean it was the correct way.

Huh? I think it is an extremely pastoral and relevent question: How does a spouse act when another spouse won't repent? I say forgive anyway. If you don't all you do is create bitterness.


And I think I have adequately addressed your "point" about Matt 18.


Anyway, the distinctions between forgiveness (God's, ours) and reconciliation have already been stated. Patrick did a good job listing what forgiveness is and isn't.

Do what you will.
 
Yes, I read your case study. It isn't infallible though. Just because the situation was led the way it was doesn't mean it was the correct way.

Huh? I think it is an extremely pastoral and relevent question: How does a spouse act when another spouse won't repent? I say forgive anyway. If you don't all you do is create bitterness.


And I think I have adequately addressed your "point" about Matt 18.


Anyway, the distinctions between forgiveness (God's, ours) and reconciliation have already been stated. Patrick did a good job listing what forgiveness is and isn't.

Do what you will.

This isn't necessarily true. Love, compassion, and humility can prevent that. I believe you are glossing over my comments as I might be doing the same thing with you. We might be speaking past each other and not understanding the other. I didn't say it wasn't being Pastoral. I just think it isn't infallible in what was Pastorally handed down.
 
So do we then posit different moralities for God and man?

God can refuse to forgive but man can't lest he sin?

When does God refuse to forgive somebody when they earnestly seek (godly sorrow) his forgiveness? Man doesn't forgive sin they accept the other persons actions and take on any damage the other person has done without payment.
 
Originally Posted by timmopussycat
Lack of forgiveness is to bitterness as cause is to effect.
I have to agree. Unforgiveness means holding something over someone's head. It is impossible to hold something over someone and not mentally and emotionally follow in kind.

I received the following thought from an insightful correspondent this morning:
I was thinking about forgiveness this morning too: how love keeps no record of wrongs and how God's forgiveness really is what sets us free from the reality of our sins -- they are not found when they are looked for. We participate in this in a small way, in forgiving others: in letting their sins go and not letting them define that person. They may be what those we love are coming from but part of our love is to travail in hope that they are not what the loved one is going to -- they are not 'really' who the loved one is, so we let them fall away. This can be a small part of their experience here of the forgiveness of God which does actually render them righteous. Forgiveness is a more powerful, and I think, a much bigger aspect of our human loves in a fallen world than is often apparent in our unexperienced apprehensions (which are not only mixed up with self seeking, but with seeking God in the wrong places) about what our marriages, friendships, parenting, etc will be like.
 
So do we then posit different moralities for God and man?

God can refuse to forgive but man can't lest he sin?

Are not there moral categories that apply to the creature alone and not to God? Does not God have a morally consistent reason within Himself to command what we must do? Is not "Because I said so" sometimes sufficient for the creature?

AMR
 
So do we then posit different moralities for God and man?

God can refuse to forgive but man can't lest he sin?

When does God refuse to forgive somebody when they earnestly seek (godly sorrow) his forgiveness? Man doesn't forgive sin they accept the other persons actions and take on any damage the other person has done without payment.

This might not apply but it might.

(Heb 12:16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

(Heb 12:17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
 
(Heb 12:16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

(Heb 12:17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

God's Election of a certain individual will later on be the cause of the holy spirit to circumcise the heart of the sinner. It's not until one is born again will they seek God and have godly sorrow. The sorrow that Esau has was because he lost his blessing. Basically, God was disciplining/punishing him because of what he did. God already gave his blessing to another something that Esau could not repent for and had to suffer the consequences of his actions.

Heb12:17 "For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought [his blessing] with tears." - emphasis added
 
I agree Bob. And that is why I brought this passage up. You can go to far and then even if you develop a right attitude for repenting you can go past the point of it. For instance, as I well know, your spouse may abandon the Marriage Covenant in deep sin. They may remarry someone else. After they remarry there is no possibility in God's will for them to return to the original Marriage Covenant. Even if they abandon the one they are in when they realize what they have done. They aren't even permitted to be remarried to the original spouse even if their recent spouse dies. They have gone too far and there is no reconciliation for that original marriage covenant permitted according to Deuteronomy 24:3,4. There is a point of no return.
 
What would be the definition of Repent and Forgive in terms of Greek and Hebrew?

Go look it up? It is your question. Do some footwork. It will stretch you. Then if you want come back and tell us what you find. Remember context when interpreting. That has a lot to do with definition.
 
So do we then posit different moralities for God and man?

God is the moral governor of the world. Man is not.

Amen. And He expects us to be conformed to the image of Christ. And He is conforming us to that image.

(Mat 5:43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

(Mat 5:44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

(Mat 5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

(Mat 5:46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

(Mat 5:47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

(Mat 5:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

As a side note notice that Jesus said you have heard it said. He didn't say it was written.
 
Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Repent is the Greek word met-an-eh-o and means to think differently or reconsider. This verse is saying he could not take back his actions and he had sorrow but it’s not the sorrow that brings about forgiveness.

Luk 17:3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,

I agree now that you do not have to forgive unless the offending party repents. Just because you don’t forgive doesn’t mean that you will automatically carry resentment and bitterness around with you. In this instance it’s better to not forgive unless the person repents. The reason is simple… Tough love... By doing this it will make them aware of what they have done and could cause reconciliation between the two parties. Also, if they do not it doesn't mean we ignore them we still offer them help and show them love when it is needed.
 
If a murderer were to kill your family and the state were to decree his execution and the man went to the chair unrepentant, one could say, "He deserves what he gets" and have a certain sense of satisfaction without sinning at the demise of said murderer because justice is done. You could pray for his repentance, but still rejoice at his execution. There would not need to be forgiveness, especially as one pressed charges and tried to get the guy the heaviest maximum punishment possible. Emotionally, one would not need to forgive either but could say as Paul said, "May the Lord reward him according to his deeds..." if he doesn't repent.

Is this scenario wrong?
 
If a murderer were to kill your family and the state were to decree his execution and the man went to the chair unrepentant, one could say, "He deserves what he gets" and have a certain sense of satisfaction without sinning at the demise of said murderer because justice is done. You could pray for his repentance, but still rejoice at his execution. There would not need to be forgiveness, especially as one pressed charges and tried to get the guy the heaviest maximum punishment possible. Emotionally, one would not need to forgive either but could say as Paul said, "May the Lord reward him according to his deeds..." if he doesn't repent.

Is this scenario wrong?

Your scenario is mostly right. But I would still have to reach the point of being internally forgiving out of obedience to Christ as well as ready to grant forgiveness at a moment's notice, should the criminal repent.
 
Tim,

I don't understand the part about being "internally forgiving." One can accept God's bitter providences, but this is not forgiveness towards a human perpetrator of injustice.

As one acts in a forgiving manner, one is being forgiving. Forgiveness is a moral act and not merely a sentiment.

I suppose you mean that I should not let things eat me up inside if such a scenario were to happen. But if one suffers a trauma in their life, mere unforgiveness won't eat up a victim any more than other emotions such as second-guessing, wondering why me in general, or grief at loss.

There would be a readiness to receive repentance and a willingness to treat one's enemies to loving acts (such as a medic treating enemy wounded even though they are still enemies) but I don't see any sin in not forgiving if the perp does not repent. An argument that forgiving even when repentance is not present might be said to be psychologically healthy, but I think many psychological concepts that we take as settled are really and truly wrong.


I also think that we cannot drive a huge wedge between the moral nature of God and the moral nature that we should desire in ourselves. We are made in the image of God and Jesus was both God and man and he is to be imitated. Therefore, it is very relevant that God only forgives when there is repentance, and I believe this is a model for us as well.
 
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