Mystery, Babylon The Great

[AV1611]

Any reviews?

http://www.freedom-ministries.com/html/Mystery,-Babylon-The-Great-by-Dr-Ian-Sadler.html

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Mystery Babylon= 1st Century Judiasm that killed our Lord and persecuted the Prophets.

 

[Israelite]

Mystery Babylon= 1st Century Judiasm that killed our Lord and persecuted the Prophets.

come on dude, you can't be serious?

 

[RamistThomist]

Mystery Babylon= 1st Century Judiasm that killed our Lord and persecuted the Prophets.

come on dude, you can't be serious?

He's serious. While I don't fully agree with him, keon can competenly back up his assertion.

 

[BertMulder]

Mystery Babylon= 1st Century Judiasm that killed our Lord and persecuted the Prophets.

Yes, but not exclusively so. The false church through the centuries.

Have not read this book though, or seen any reviews.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Any reviews?

Richard is obviously talking about a book gentlemen, not the text itself.

I read this book about 7 years ago and still have it in the house; basically its a critique of Romanism primarily, and has some stuff on Masonry, occultism etc. It suffers on an over-reliance on books and comics published by Jack Chick (which apart from the ones by Chinquiy and a few others) were rubbish, and it is a tad over the top in some places. Though if you are interested in some good old Rome-bashing, it should meet your needs/

 

[tcalbrecht]

Mystery Babylon= 1st Century Judiasm that killed our Lord and persecuted the Prophets.

I agree. I think the parallel between the earthly Jerusalem and heavenly one is unmistakable (cf. Gal. 4) and also the "great harlot" vs. the Bride.

Here's a parallel I put togther some time ago on the latter contrast:

         The "Harlot"                             The Bride

  And there came one of the seven      And there came unto me one of the
  angels which had the seven vials,    seven angels which had the seven
  and talked with me, saying unto      vials full of the seven last
  me, Come hither; I will shew unto    plagues, and talked with me,
  thee the judgment of the great       saying, Come hither, I will shew
  whore that sitteth upon many         thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
  waters:  (17:1)                      (21:9)

  With whom the kings of the earth     And I John saw the holy city, new
  have committed fornication, and      Jerusalem, coming down from God
  the inhabitants of the earth have    out of heaven, prepared as a
  been made drunk with the wine of     bride adorned for her husband.
  her fornication. (17:2)              And I heard a great voice out of
                                       heaven saying, Behold, the
                                       tabernacle of God is with men,
                                       and he will dwell with them, and
                                       they shall be his people, and God
                                       himself shall be with them, and
                                       be their God. (21:1,2)

  So he carried me away in the         And he carried me away in the
  spirit into the wilderness: and I    spirit to a great and high
  saw a woman sit upon a scarlet       mountain, and shewed me that
  coloured beast, full of names of     great city, the holy Jerusalem,
  blasphemy, having seven heads and    descending out of heaven from
  ten horns. (17:3)                    God, (21:10)

  And the woman was arrayed in         Let us be glad and rejoice, and
  purple and scarlet colour, and       give honour to him: for the
  decked with gold and precious        marriage of the Lamb is come, and
  stones and pearls, having a          his wife hath made herself ready.
  golden cup in her hand full of       And to her was granted that she
  abominations and filthiness of       should be arrayed in fine linen,
  her fornication:                     clean and white: for the fine
  And upon her forehead was a name     linen is the righteousness of
  written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE        saints.  (Rev. 19:7,8)
  GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND     Having the glory of God: and her
  ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.           light was like unto a stone most
  (17:4,5)                             precious, even like a jasper
                                       stone, clear as crystal; (21:11)

  And here is the mind which hath      And had a wall great and high,
  wisdom. The seven heads are seven    and had twelve gates, and at the
  mountains, on which the woman        gates twelve angels, and names
  sitteth. (17:9)                      written thereon, which are the
  And he saith unto me, The waters     names of the twelve tribes of the
  which thou sawest, where the         children of Israel: On the east
  whore sitteth, are peoples, and      three gates; on the north three
  multitudes, and nations, and         gates; on the south three gates;
  tongues. (17:15)                     and on the west three gates. And
                                       the wall of the city had twelve
                                       foundations, and in them the
                                       names of the twelve apostles of
                                       the Lamb. (21:12-14)

 

[MW]

I agree. I think the parallel between the earthly Jerusalem and heavenly one is unmistakable (cf. Gal. 4) and also the "great harlot" vs. the Bride.

Granting the tale of two cities motif, this begs the question, does it not, as to whether earthly Jerusalem is literal or symbolic of the kingdom of man?

 

[tcalbrecht]

I agree. I think the parallel between the earthly Jerusalem and heavenly one is unmistakable (cf. Gal. 4) and also the "great harlot" vs. the Bride.

Granting the tale of two cities motif, this begs the question, does it not, as to whether earthly Jerusalem is literal or symbolic of the kingdom of man?

And how would one decide? There is certainly more than enough precedent in Scripture to relate to the harlot view specifically to apostate Israel (cf. Isa. 1:21; Jer. 3:8). We would need warrant, would we not, to treat the “kingdom of man” this way? It seems to me the “kingdom of man” was never generally in a covenant relationship with God, i.e., they were never in a position of faithfulness which they abandoned to go after other gods. Their harlotry reached a climax when they put to death the son of the Landowner (Matt. 21:33ff).

I think the description in Revelation is too detailed to regard it as a general description of all mankind.

 

[MW]

And how would one decide? There is certainly more than enough precedent in Scripture to relate to the harlot view specifically to apostate Israel (cf. Isa. 1:21; Jer. 3:8). We would need warrant, would we not, to treat the “kingdom of man” this way? It seems to me the “kingdom of man” was never generally in a covenant relationship with God, i.e., they were never in a position of faithfulness which they abandoned to go after other gods. Their harlotry reached a climax when they put to death the son of the Landowner (Matt. 21:33ff).

I think the description in Revelation is too detailed to regard it as a general description of all mankind.

I think we could decide by relating it to the hermeneutical key provided for us in the letters to the seven churches. There we read of those who were saying they were Jews, and WERE NOT. These were corrupting the church of God.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

And how would one decide? There is certainly more than enough precedent in Scripture to relate to the harlot view specifically to apostate Israel (cf. Isa. 1:21; Jer. 3:8). We would need warrant, would we not, to treat the “kingdom of man” this way? It seems to me the “kingdom of man” was never generally in a covenant relationship with God, i.e., they were never in a position of faithfulness which they abandoned to go after other gods. Their harlotry reached a climax when they put to death the son of the Landowner (Matt. 21:33ff).

I think the description in Revelation is too detailed to regard it as a general description of all mankind.

 

[AV1611]

Any reviews?

Richard is obviously talking about a book gentlemen, not the text itself.

I read this book about 7 years ago and still have it in the house; basically its a critique of Romanism primarily, and has some stuff on Masonry, occultism etc. It suffers on an over-reliance on books and comics published by Jack Chick (which apart from the ones by Chinquiy and a few others) were rubbish, and it is a tad over the top in some places. Though if you are interested in some good old Rome-bashing, it should meet your needs/

Cheer Daniel I think I will give it a miss

 

[tcalbrecht]

I think we could decide by relating it to the hermeneutical key provided for us in the letters to the seven churches. There we read of those who were saying they were Jews, and WERE NOT. These were corrupting the church of God.

8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens": 8 I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

I’m having a difficult time reading both of these letters as relating the “Jews” to anything other than 1st century apostate Jews who were persecuting the early Church. There is nothing specific in the text to identity these “Jews” as professing members of Christ’s Church. Jesus seems to confirm this external persecution view in places like, Matt. 19:28, “So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’” (cf. Luke 22:30).

This was confirmation that the rightful, covenantal governance of God’s people was passing from the Jewish leadership to the apostles and elders of the Church.

I would also suggest, based on the view of a common authorship of the gospel of John and Revelation, that this interpretation of “Jew” is quite consistent with how it is generally used in the gospel as identifying unbelieving Jews who opposed Christ, cf. John 5:16,18; 7:13; 8:48; 10:31; 19:38.

We tend to forget that the immediate persecution of Christ’s Church in that age is in view in Rev. 2 and 3. The Jews and Roman were conspiring to bring this to pass.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. We can start a new topic if anyone would like to discuss this further.

 

[MW]

I don't think the Apocalypse and Gospel must follow uniformity in designation, especially considering the apocalypse is basically anti-typological. The difficulty you face with your identification of the Jews is that somewhere you must allow for symbolism. Are they literal Jews? But then the text says they are not. The only way the text could say they are not Jews is if the "spiritual" Jew is in mind. So one way or the other you have to allow for anti-typology. I would suggest, though, that consistency requires us to see the whole thing as such.