N.T. Wright is awesome.

Discussion in 'Defending the Faith' started by WrittenFromUtopia, Sep 25, 2005.

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  1. ChristianTrader

    ChristianTrader Puritan Board Graduate

    As far as the origins of Christianity, I thought that one could get ahold of Machen and Nash without having to dodge the landmines involved in Wright's thoughts?

    You do know what we do to Blasphemers? :D
     
  2. ChristianTrader

    ChristianTrader Puritan Board Graduate

    Even better than Keyes? If you think so, then you need to link me to some material.
     
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    While I treasure anything Gresham Machen has to say, Wright has the chronological advantage of responding to more recent attacks.
     
  4. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    Wayne, I asked this earlier, but could you please tell me why the gospel/good news is not "The Lord Reigns" alone? I'm confused as to what else it would/could be in your viewpoint. Wright is definitely not alone in this view ....
     
  5. JohnV

    JohnV Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    No. I was answering to the things that Gabriel had already connected. This was in response to his post about defending the faith in his circle.
     
  6. ChristianTrader

    ChristianTrader Puritan Board Graduate

    Hence Nash, writing circa 1992.

    I think I am still stinging from the stance that I think Gabe is taking. "Without Wright, we would be sheeps to the slaughter. No orthodox writer can assist us in the fight against the liberals."

    Hopefully I am misreading him.
     
  7. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    You clearly are, since I never said anything like that.
     
  8. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    How about: "Christ died for sinners of whom I am chief" or "The power of God unto salvation." or "He who was without sin become sin for us" or any other of dozens of like Scriptural passages.
     
  9. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    I wouldn't say those are definitions of the gospel though... more like, the ends of the gospel. The beef is with Paul, though, (and Isaiah). Romans 10 seems clear to me (cf. Isa. 52).
     
  10. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    :amen:

    Eph. 2:1-10 is another passage
     
  11. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    Contrary to what the Uberbishop keeps saying, that is not the historic view of the Church. See Calvin for instance on Romans 10:9

    And on Isaiah 52:7

    It is essential to the gospel that Jesus is Lord (else how could atonement be made?) but the gospel is more than that. It is good news, in the context of bad news.
     
  12. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    The Romanists and E. Orthodox agree that Jesus is Lord, do they not? Even many cults could in some sense affirm the same. As Fred just said, the gospel is more than that although of course Jesus' lordship is essential to it.
     
  13. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    I don't get the point, Fred. "The Lord Reigns" summarizes everything you just quoted. To believe in this good news is to believe that the Lord does indeed reign over all (as Paul also says in Rom 10), and to live your life accordingly, in submission to His rule, fearing the Lord and obeying His commandments by faith.
     
  14. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    You're also missing the implications of this. To believe in this good news - the gospel - is to submit yourself to the Lordship of Christ, including proper doctrine, lifestyle, faith, etc. etc. etc... It is more than just saying "the lord reigns," it is an acknowledgement of it in actions and in your heart as well.
     
  15. AdamM

    AdamM Puritan Board Freshman

    Gabe, although Jesus is Lord certainly is part of the Gospel, don't you think claiming that it is whole Gospel is a bit reductionistic? Afterall, the proclamation that Jesus is Lord has to come in a context for it to be good news to you and me.
     
  16. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    No, I don't. I believe Scripture clearly teaches that the actual good news - gospel - is "The Lord reigns." Paul helps us understand the rest, along with Christ and the rest of the New Testament (and some of the Old Testament prophets as well).
     
  17. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Gabe,
    Even the devils believe the Lord Reigns. In fact they regretted it.

    Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Paul had a warning that you would do well to listen to.

    (Gal 1:3-9)
    3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
    4) Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
    5) To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    Justification is the Good News of the Kingdom. We were in the Kingdom of Darkness, but God has adopted us and Reconciled Us through His dear Son, and brought us into His Kingdom of Light.

    We are ambassadors of Christ in the Ministry of reconciliation.

    (2Co 5:18-21)
    18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    I know you understand this but Wright screws this all up. He has a different Gospel at this point.
     
  18. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    I know all of that, Martin. I'm not defending Wright's view of justification, and have never addressed it or approved of it in this thread (or ever). I did not even hear this view of the good news from Wright, but from a Reformed Presbyterian minister/professor at an RPCNA family conference this summer.
     
  19. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Well, the Lord Reigns only signifies His Sovereignty. The Gospel is more than just He is Sovereign.
     
  20. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    I disagree. Everything springs forth from this good news.
     
  21. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    What part do you disagree with?
     
  22. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member


    Let me ask it another way. Why do you believe 'the Lord Reigns' is what the Gospel is? Is this the totality of the Gospel? Or is the Gospel implemented because He is Lord?

    The Lord reigns doesn't reconcile me to God. Propitiation does.
    He is able to Propitiate for me because He does reign though.

    [Edited on 9-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]
     
  23. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    I believe that is what the good news is because that is what Isaiah says it is and that is what Paul quotes in Romans 10 when exhorting the Romans that preachers must be sent to preach the good news (which Isaiah defines).

     
  24. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    We have propitiation and reconciliation because the Lord reigns.
     
  25. ChristianTrader

    ChristianTrader Puritan Board Graduate

    There is a difference between: 1)If you have X, Y or Z wrong, you are sunk and 2)X, Y or Z is the sum total.

    Saying that Jesus is Lord is saying that X is the sum total.

    If I was a lost person, and you told me, "Lord is sovereign", I dont think that would warm my heart very much, if you just left it at that.

    One question. Could the statement "The Lord reigns" be true and I could be without hope? Or did Jesus have to come and save us in order to reign?
     
  26. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    This Passage is saying so much more than He Reigns.

    I see Peace, Salvation, happiness, Redemption, being published. There is more to the Gospel here than Your God Reigns.

    We need Propitiation. Now that is good news. He made a propitiation for us.
     
  27. WrittenFromUtopia

    WrittenFromUtopia Puritan Board Graduate

    As I said, He made propitiation because He reigns. Everything comes from that good news.
     
  28. ChristianTrader

    ChristianTrader Puritan Board Graduate

    Unless you can say "He reigns therefore he made propitiation" then you cannot say that He reigns is the gospel.

    Or put another way, you cannot deduce propitiation from Jesus Reigning. Jesus could reign and not have been made propitiation for us. His reigning was not dependent on him saving us.

    The Muslims have a sovereign god but no good news.

    [Edited on 9-27-2005 by ChristianTrader]
     
  29. AdamM

    AdamM Puritan Board Freshman

    Yep.
     
  30. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I can answer the problem and solve the dilemma for both sides, but it would take about 3,000 words and I don't have the time right now. I think Gabe vs. PB are speaking past each other. Gabe is not denying imputation/propitiation (btw, Tom Wright has one of the best defenses of the word "propitiation" for Romans 3:25. If you don't believe me, ask Dick Gaffin). I think Gabe is saying, but has not yet said, is that Redemption should be viewed on the cosmic scale (including my own personal redemption).

    The Creator God made the world (Creation), but something went terribly wrong (Fall). In the meanwhile Sin and Death began to reign. At the fullness of time (when Israel's narrative had reached a climax), God sent his Son. Not only would his Son redeem his people (which among other things involved a reorientation of Israel along the lines of the New People of God ( The Church). The Church would do what Israel failed to do: Carry God's plan of salvation--the reign of God (Isaiah 52)--into the Dark Corners of the World. They would, in other words, be a city on a hill and a light for the nations (Is. 42:6). This would be the turning of the tide against sin and Darkness in these parts of the world. Of course, this includes one's own personal redemption, which then raises questions about the atonement, justification, etc.--all of which I believe the Reformed Faith has answers.

    I think this is what Gabe is getting at.
     
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