National Super-Sabbath Breaking Sunday?

[David FCC]

Why not support your local high school or college team (Friday and Saturday games)?

Was this aimed at anyone in particular as there is no quote?

 

[Wannabee]

This is no way to use “the market day of the soul” of which the Puritans spoke. People who don’t like the biblical Lord’s Day will not like heaven.

This is so true. We keep the Lord's day/Sabbath as an "earnest penny" toward that glorious final Sabbath rest with Christ in eternity. If you don't call the Sabbath a delight then pray earnestly the God would make you a fit vessel for his glory.

People who do not like to honor their mothers and fathers would not like Heaven, nor would people who look at p0rnography, or people who commit any other sin. I disagree. I think in Heaven, when the work which has begun is complete, we will all love to be in heaven. Not because we are used to not sinning, but because we will be fully sanctified.
Your understanding of the Sabbath has come to you by God's grace. As such, I don't think there's any room for statements like those above, where you suggest that other people who have different understandings of God's word, would not like Heaven and need to pray to be better fit! We all need to pray for that, none of us are fit to enjoy heaven or be His glory.

This statement (in bold) implies that those who "call the Sabbath a delight," on your terms, are already fit vessels for God's glory. I do call the Sabbath my delight, but not in regard to the first day of the week. Many others have no understanding of the Sabbath at all, and yet are delighted in Christ. And none of us are vessels of honor because of what we do, but only because of the gracious and glorious work of Christ within us. We must be careful, as Jessica pointed out, to avoid elitism regardless of our perspective on these things, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, recognizing that it is God who works in us to will and to do.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Perhaps Paul’s words apply:

If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. [1 Cor. 10:27]​

I have no responsibility for or control over an unbeliever or antinomian Christian slaughtering a steer on the Lord’s Day, part of which might end up as a roast on my Sabbath table, unless I purposely seek out a slaughter house and butcher shop which I know processed this beef on Sunday. One can claim no such ignorance or innocence concerning the Super Bowl and everything connected with it.

The confessions did not leave such matters to the individual conscience. Neither should the church adhering to those standards. We either understand, believe, practice and enforce the standards of our constitutions or we’re on the same road of confessional indifference which gave us the PCUSA and RCA. It is a matter of honesty.

I think your bottom two paragraphs are contradictory. If you believe watching the Super Bowl is wrong because it condones others working, then you must also believe eating any meal prepared on the Lord's Day, using electricity run by people working on the Lord's Day, using a gas stove/fireplace where the gas is supplied by people working on the Lord's Day, etc. are all sinful as well. You can't have it both ways. Either ALL work on the Lord's Day is wrong, or it's a matter of conscience.

 

[jfschultz]

Perhaps Paul’s words apply:

If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. [1 Cor. 10:27]​

I have no responsibility for or control over an unbeliever or antinomian Christian slaughtering a steer on the Lord’s Day, part of which might end up as a roast on my Sabbath table, unless I purposely seek out a slaughter house and butcher shop which I know processed this beef on Sunday. One can claim no such ignorance or innocence concerning the Super Bowl and everything connected with it.

The confessions did not leave such matters to the individual conscience. Neither should the church adhering to those standards. We either understand, believe, practice and enforce the standards of our constitutions or we’re on the same road of confessional indifference which gave us the PCUSA and RCA. It is a matter of honesty.

I think your bottom two paragraphs are contradictory. If you believe watching the Super Bowl is wrong because it condones others working, then you must also believe eating any meal prepared on the Lord's Day, using electricity run by people working on the Lord's Day, using a gas stove/fireplace where the gas is supplied by people working on the Lord's Day, etc. are all sinful as well. You can't have it both ways. Either ALL work on the Lord's Day is wrong, or it's a matter of conscience.

But wouldn't some these item you mention be matters of necessity? Electricity and gas are necessities to provide heat. The standards do make allowance for works of necessity and mercy.

 

[Wannabee]

This may be stretching what's permitted on this board. Any moderation clarifying might be helpful. I have no wish to step over the line here. But argumentation has been set forth which I perceive deserves an response.

Electricity is not a necessity. It's a luxury. Gas is a luxury. Heat may be necessary, but neither of these are necessary for heat. But if you burn wood, who's going to load the fireplace? Wouldn't that be work? What one considers necessary because of their standard of living another doesn't even dream of being able to indulge in, ever. There is an obvious inconsistency in the thinking that is severely influenced by one's culture, standard of living, convenience and/or other influences we may take for granted.
The list is endless. Does one stop to pump gas? Both the pumping and encouraging another to work on the Sabbath could be considered inconsistent. Even driving a car could be considered work. Does one empty the trash? Flush the toilet? Clean up after themselves/dishes/clutter? What does one consider recreation? Much of this seems subjective as well. One considers taking a walk as work, another as recreation, another as relaxation and contemplation.
It would seem, in order to be consistent, that one must abstain from all appearance of evil (any form of work on the Sabbath), except for the occasional ox in a ditch. One must ask, who is a slave to whom, or what?

 

[VictorBravo]

This may be stretching what's permitted on this board. Any moderation clarifying might be helpful. I have no wish to step over the line here. But argumentation has been set forth which I perceive deserves an response.

OK

I'm not strictly moderating here, but the thread is going off track. Pastor Ferrell has set out the historical and confessional understanding of the issue. There may be some difference in minor details here or there in interpretation historically, but it is undeniable that his view is solidly within the confessions as understood for centuries.

He also stated that the point was not to make a list of prohibited activities and focus on that. I completely agree.

So any further argument about lists, like whether you can use electricity, burn wood, etc., is going to lead into a fruitless area.

On the other hand, the necessity issue is a great area for each of us to meditate on and seek to understand for ourselves. Maybe for me electricity is not a necessity strictly speaking, but it sure helps me in winter to read scripture. Which is more important, sitting in a dark cold room secure in the understanding that I'm am not purchasing the fruits of someone's Sabbath breaking, or reading scripture and commentaries?

So, please, let's avoid the ad absurdum discussion because, ultimately, one can argue that eating and breathing is labor too.

Still, there is plenty of room for discussion about the difference between forcing your servants to work when you don't (does that mean a waitress you've never meant?--maybe it does) or supporting a market that provides entertainment services by employing people on the Lord's Day.

So, please, away with the ad absurdum argument and maybe we can get back on track for a useful way to learn to delight in His Day.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

This may be stretching what's permitted on this board. Any moderation clarifying might be helpful. I have no wish to step over the line here. But argumentation has been set forth which I perceive deserves an response.

OK

I'm not strictly moderating here, but the thread is going off track. Pastor Ferrell has set out the historical and confessional understanding of the issue. There may be some difference in minor details here or there in interpretation historically, but it is undeniable that his view is solidly within the confessions as understood for centuries.

He also stated that the point was not to make a list of prohibited activities and focus on that. I completely agree.

So any further argument about lists, like whether you can use electricity, burn wood, etc., is going to lead into a fruitless area.

On the other hand, the necessity issue is a great area for each of us to meditate on and seek to understand for ourselves. Maybe for me electricity is not a necessity strictly speaking, but it sure helps me in winter to read scripture. Which is more important, sitting in a dark cold room secure in the understanding that I'm am not purchasing the fruits of someone's Sabbath breaking, or reading scripture and commentaries?

So, please, let's avoid the ad absurdum discussion because, ultimately, one can argue that eating and breathing is labor too.

Still, there is plenty of room for discussion about the difference between forcing your servants to work when you don't (does that mean a waitress you've never meant?--maybe it does) or supporting a market that provides entertainment services by employing people on the Lord's Day.

So, please, away with the ad absurdum argument and maybe we can get back on track for a useful way to learn to delight in His Day.

I agree with this completely. My point isn't to make an absurd argument, but to point out that when you start getting into particulars of what is lawful/unlawful on the Lord's Day, which is the very nature of this thread, then we cannot help but descend into ad absurdum argument. Pastor Ferrell is making an absolute statement that something is sinful when I don't think it can be Scripturally or logically supported. I agree that his view is well within historical and Confessional bounds - I believe mine is as well.

 

[Augusta]

This is so true. We keep the Lord's day/Sabbath as an "earnest penny" toward that glorious final Sabbath rest with Christ in eternity. If you don't call the Sabbath a delight then pray earnestly the God would make you a fit vessel for his glory.

People who do not like to honor their mothers and fathers would not like Heaven, nor would people who look at p0rnography, or people who commit any other sin. I disagree. I think in Heaven, when the work which has begun is complete, we will all love to be in heaven. Not because we are used to not sinning, but because we will be fully sanctified.
Your understanding of the Sabbath has come to you by God's grace. As such, I don't think there's any room for statements like those above, where you suggest that other people who have different understandings of God's word, would not like Heaven and need to pray to be better fit! We all need to pray for that, none of us are fit to enjoy heaven or be His glory.

This statement (in bold) implies that those who "call the Sabbath a delight," on your terms, are already fit vessels for God's glory. I do call the Sabbath my delight, but not in regard to the first day of the week. Many others have no understanding of the Sabbath at all, and yet are delighted in Christ. And none of us are vessels of honor because of what we do, but only because of the gracious and glorious work of Christ within us. We must be careful, as Jessica pointed out, to avoid elitism regardless of our perspective on these things, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, recognizing that it is God who works in us to will and to do.

Joe & Jessi, my terms or my description are not the test for calling the Sabbath a delight. I was speaking of, and I think Rev. Ferrell was also, the terms set by Isaiah 58. You are right that none of us are fit vessels, until through God's sancifying grace, he makes us one, thus my admonishment which is also given to us in 2 Tim. According to the WCF, which many of us confess is a good summary of what Scripture teaches, doing your own thing and not setting the whole day apart is wrong. I don't want to make anyone upset, but you are misdirecting your anger. This is not my teaching. This is the teaching of many many pastors throughout history.

Isaiah 58
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

2 Tim. 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Proverbs 25:4
Take away the dross from the silver,And there comes out a vessel for the smith;

 

[Wannabee]

Dear Traci,

I was not angry in the least. I simply disagree and attempted to point out the ramifications of the statement. Please forgive any miscommunication.

I understand the application you were attempting to make. I simply disagree with your conclusions. In fact, I applaud anyone who is so convicted and strives to adhere to their conscience in regard to this. I don't think that's the issue. The issue appears to be that those of us who disagree are likened to fornicators and murderers in the eyes of some because we disagree on the nature of the Sabbath. I find this to be an imposition of one person's conscience upon another. We are all bound by God, but such accusations appear to place man in bondage to the law of the Sabbath and to the doctrine of men. You, or any other Sabbatarian, are not more holy than I because I watched the Super Bowl last Sunday and you didn't. I suppose that's what it ultimately comes down to in this thread.

 

[Augusta]

Thank you for your kind response Joe. I KNOW I don't keep the Sabbath perfectly. Our family has only been what is considered sabbatarian for a couple of years and we are always trying to do better and it has been a stair stepping process.

I hope that I can boldy speak up for what I consider to be God's word on a matter even though, I, in my depravity can never do it perfectly myself. That doesn't mean we don't strive and press into the kingdom as Paul says.

We do what we know will help us to keep it better and that is to remove distractions that prevent us from keeping the day focused on God only. It is a simple rule to follow and it does help. Now if I could only keep my wandering mind under control during the Pastoral prayer. The inward stuff is always the hardest nut to crack.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Moderator hat on.
This has already been dealt with. See my earlier posting when I reopened this thread below. Sabbatarians think that watching the superbowl on the Lord's day displeases God and is not in keeping with the demands of the fourth commandment. By consequence that means Sabbatarians believe someone who watched the superbowl on the Lord's day displeased God. Nothing personal. Get over it. Discuss the doctrinal issues.

Thread reopened. N.B. This is a Confessional board. The governing standard, Westminster, is clearly Sabbatarian. We allow discussion of the doctrine, but we don't allow trashing the confessional position (see Rich's post on the RPW which is appropriate in this instance as well). Feel free to ask questions and raise objections. However, non-Sabbatarians should accept that Sabbatarians will think something is Sabbath-breaking and a violation of the fourth commandment, and therefore a sin by consequence. On the other side, it would do well for Sabbatarians on the board to be winsome in their argumentation for the Confessional position. Now, as with any thread and topic, if anyone gets ugly or personal don't return in kind but either ignore it or if egregious, make use of the report a post feature to bring it to the moderator's attention. Thanks. Carry on, winsomely.

You, or any other Sabbatarian, are not more holy than I because I watched the Super Bowl last Sunday and you didn't. I suppose that's what it ultimately comes down to in this thread.

I highly doubt that those of us who have contended for the Sabbath Law (as articulated in the Confession) are saying that we're "more holy," since we would (should at least) readily confess that we are guilty of breaking it in word, thought, and deed. The question is, then, the attitude toward the breaking thereof. We are to strive to keep it, and no one (other than Christ), I'm sure, has ever perfectly kept it; but such should not keep us from the pursuit of it. I believe the point being made is that openly advocating the permissiveness of watching the Super Bowl on the Lord's Day is not within the bounds of Confessional Standards.

 

[Mushroom]

OK, I posted this on the other Sabbath thread and have yet to recieve a response. Maybe it was missed, or maybe I have some supernatural ability to kill a thread, or maybe I'm just so obtuse that the wiser folks know better than to bother with my inquiries. But being obtuse, I'm kinda dense about giving up, so here it is again. If its inappropriate, I apologize, but I'm really trying to get a grasp of this issue. Even if somebody would take the time to PM me and guide me through it, I would greatly appreciate it.

I took exception to the WCF at joining my Church on the subject of the Sabbath, because I honestly have not found that position in scripture. I am wrestling with it now, due to the fact that many folks whom I hold in high regard are sabbatarian.

When I first approached it many years ago, I had no dog in the hunt, I only wanted to determine what God had said about it and follow His directions. I had not heard arguments either way, only had seen that some christians were sabbatarian and some weren't.

So first I tried to determine what day was the Sabbath, the seventh or the first. I read some of the explanations that said something about the Mary's going to the tomb at the 'end of the Sabbath', as though that inferred that 7th day Sabbath was over, and a new day was now set aside. But then in reading Acts I found that Paul was meeting with the Jews on what scripture called the Sabbath many years after the ascension. Since these Jews were not yet converted, it meant they were meeting on the 7th day, yet the Holy Spirit called it the Sabbath, so I concluded that the 7th day must be right.

Then I studied this:


Quote:
Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Sabbath days were included in a list of things that had been shadows, but were now fulfilled, so it appeared that the Spirit was saying that the keeping of it was as necessary as keeping the dietary laws, and that none should be judged in it. Then the scripture goes on to say:


Quote:
Col 2:18-19 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, (19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

So it appeared to me that doing the things in the list prior could fall into a category of voluntary humility. I also noted that one of the faults the Lord pointed out in the Pharisees was that they had added rituals and requirements to salvation that were not in the scripture, and condemned others for not keeping them. This seemed like it was possibly a similar thing.

I have also seen many instances in the Church where a man-made practice that has no basis in scripture has been made into a law because so-and-so said it ought to be way back when, like the Amish wearing funny clothes, and then the practice become more important than the scripture, so I was leery.

That has been my take for a number of years. I am not moved by the fact that certain men of renown have been sabbatarians, because I have read many great theologians who were accurate in vast areas of biblical thought, and yet glaringly erroneous in others. The same can be said of confessions - none are infallible.

So here I sit trying to come to terms with what many of my brothers admonish me to believe on the matter. I came to my conclusions by no means out of a desire to do my own pleasure on Sunday - I just wanted to know what God required. I concede that a true sabbatarian could equate my position with condoning adultery, and by the same token I can see where a non-sabbatarian could charge the sabbatarian with the equivalent of being a Judaizer. Either charge would amount to rank, notorious sin if true.

I admire and subscribe to the rest of the confession (at least to the extent that I understand it), but above being confessionally obedient I desire to be biblically obedient. So please, I know there are competent teachers on PB, could one that holds to sabbatarianism prove to me my error from scripture alone? Leaving out confessions, commentaries, traditions or history other than what scripture directly addresses? And then proceed to delineate how much of the OT Sabbath proscriptions we should and should not hold, and why? Should I be stoned for walking out back and carrying a load of firewood up on Sunday? If not, why not?

I'm not trying to be facetious, I seriously want to come to the right, biblical, conclusion in this matter. If my inquiry is out-of-bounds on PB, please mods, feel free to delete this post, and if called for, administer whatever discipline you deem appropriate.

Thanks.

Edit: Since no-one has responded yet, I thought I should add that I do consider the first day to be the Lord's day referred to in the Revelation, and the first day of the week as described in Acts and 1 Cor. to be the appropriate day for worship as prescribed by scripture, but it can't be the Sabbath as the seventh day is called such in the Acts. I agree that christians are called to obey the decalogue, and all the moral law, which is perfect and altogether lovely. But the inclusion of sabbath days with the other shadows would indicate that some change has been made to it's administration. In studying that, the only conclusion that seemed to make sense was that, as Christ is our Sabbath rest, honoring the Sabbath must refer to honoring Christ, not a single day bound up with 'touch nots, taste nots, & handle nots', but every day and always. (Still haven't figured out how to do that add-on thingy, except a couple of times by accident)

 

[VictorBravo]

This thread has had an unusual pull for me, because I think so much is getting lost as the heat goes up.

First, some personal information to explain my perspective: For more than 30 years I’ve not had an urge to watch TV of any sort, let alone the Super Bowl, so the particular issue is not something I wrestle with.

But, I do wrestle with the same issues in other contexts. My particular difficulty with observing the Lord’s Day has to deal with the 100s of thoughts and ideas that suddenly present themselves on this of all days. Sometimes I’ll scribble notes or ideas, mess with differential equations, start calculating exponential functions on anything from interest on money to CO2 uptake of seedling in the greenhouse.

It’s as if there is this wonderful burst of energy that overtakes me for anything, anything at all, as long as it has nothing to do with worshipping God or being edified by his Word.

And, I think, that is the whole point of the Sabbath command. Rest, worship, be edified.

And I can’t do it. Not at all.

Many times on the Lord’s Day, after worship, I’ll sit down with a Bible to read and my mind rebels. “No! Not any more of that! By the way, you read the Bible all the other days, shouldn’t you take a rest on the Sabbath?” And so forth it screams.

And, if I come to myself, I remember how Jesus treated all the other commandments. One lustful look equals adultery. One unkind word equals murder. How impossible are the laws and how wicked is the heart!

But, of course, that is only half of the story. We were given the law to understand that there is a standard. We are clearly shown that it is an impossible standard. And we are also given freedom in Christ if we are granted faith.

The sword does cut both ways. It slays and it guides.

So, regarding practical matters, I believe a few things, as taught by our confessions and by God’s Word. One, there is a command to worship, rest, and cease from typical daily activities. It’s fairly plain and simple, really. On those six days you work, provide for yourself and your family, tend to mundane (meaning daily) tasks. The seventh day is to be devoted to God. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t do certain daily tasks. The yoke is easy. Of course you eat, of course you make sure necessary things are done, and of course you take the necessary pains and effort to help those in trouble and need.

Two, this side of glory, we will always be tempted, often beyond our imagination, to find a way to negate or soften God’s law. Sometimes we can come up with good arguments for doing that.

But, and this goes back to Jesus’ teaching on other commandments, the fundamental issue is what is it you are really trying to do? In my case, I’m usually trying to rationalize a way to avoid the primary commandment: “to love God with all my heart, soul, and mind.” So, in my case, again, I must acknowledge sin.

And be ever grateful for my savior.

As for others, I cannot go so far as to comment. My own sins are big enough to obscure my vision. But I do exhort all to seriously consider if some sort of rationalization is going on.

And if there is none, Godspeed and God bless.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Brad,
Not to be cute, but did you try searching for older threads? Things are beaten to death here and you are not the only person in the world that every had a question on the Puritan position on the Lord's day, the Christian Sabbath. What books have you read on the subject that explain or attempt to explain the view?

OK, I posted this on the other Sabbath thread and have yet to recieve a response. Maybe it was missed, or maybe I have some supernatural ability to kill a thread, or maybe I'm just so obtuse that the wiser folks know better than to bother with my inquiries. But being obtuse, I'm kinda dense about giving up, so here it is again. If its inappropriate, I apologize, but I'm really trying to get a grasp of this issue. Even if somebody would take the time to PM me and guide me through it, I would greatly appreciate it.

I took exception to the WCF at joining my Church on the subject of the Sabbath, because I honestly have not found that position in scripture. I am wrestling with it now, due to the fact that many folks whom I hold in high regard are sabbatarian.

When I first approached it many years ago, I had no dog in the hunt, I only wanted to determine what God had said about it and follow His directions. I had not heard arguments either way, only had seen that some christians were sabbatarian and some weren't.

So first I tried to determine what day was the Sabbath, the seventh or the first. I read some of the explanations that said something about the Mary's going to the tomb at the 'end of the Sabbath', as though that inferred that 7th day Sabbath was over, and a new day was now set aside. But then in reading Acts I found that Paul was meeting with the Jews on what scripture called the Sabbath many years after the ascension. Since these Jews were not yet converted, it meant they were meeting on the 7th day, yet the Holy Spirit called it the Sabbath, so I concluded that the 7th day must be right.

Then I studied this:


Quote:
Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Sabbath days were included in a list of things that had been shadows, but were now fulfilled, so it appeared that the Spirit was saying that the keeping of it was as necessary as keeping the dietary laws, and that none should be judged in it. Then the scripture goes on to say:


Quote:
Col 2:18-19 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, (19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

So it appeared to me that doing the things in the list prior could fall into a category of voluntary humility. I also noted that one of the faults the Lord pointed out in the Pharisees was that they had added rituals and requirements to salvation that were not in the scripture, and condemned others for not keeping them. This seemed like it was possibly a similar thing.

I have also seen many instances in the Church where a man-made practice that has no basis in scripture has been made into a law because so-and-so said it ought to be way back when, like the Amish wearing funny clothes, and then the practice become more important than the scripture, so I was leery.

That has been my take for a number of years. I am not moved by the fact that certain men of renown have been sabbatarians, because I have read many great theologians who were accurate in vast areas of biblical thought, and yet glaringly erroneous in others. The same can be said of confessions - none are infallible.

So here I sit trying to come to terms with what many of my brothers admonish me to believe on the matter. I came to my conclusions by no means out of a desire to do my own pleasure on Sunday - I just wanted to know what God required. I concede that a true sabbatarian could equate my position with condoning adultery, and by the same token I can see where a non-sabbatarian could charge the sabbatarian with the equivalent of being a Judaizer. Either charge would amount to rank, notorious sin if true.

I admire and subscribe to the rest of the confession (at least to the extent that I understand it), but above being confessionally obedient I desire to be biblically obedient. So please, I know there are competent teachers on PB, could one that holds to sabbatarianism prove to me my error from scripture alone? Leaving out confessions, commentaries, traditions or history other than what scripture directly addresses? And then proceed to delineate how much of the OT Sabbath proscriptions we should and should not hold, and why? Should I be stoned for walking out back and carrying a load of firewood up on Sunday? If not, why not?

I'm not trying to be facetious, I seriously want to come to the right, biblical, conclusion in this matter. If my inquiry is out-of-bounds on PB, please mods, feel free to delete this post, and if called for, administer whatever discipline you deem appropriate.

Thanks.

Edit: Since no-one has responded yet, I thought I should add that I do consider the first day to be the Lord's day referred to in the Revelation, and the first day of the week as described in Acts and 1 Cor. to be the appropriate day for worship as prescribed by scripture, but it can't be the Sabbath as the seventh day is called such in the Acts. I agree that christians are called to obey the decalogue, and all the moral law, which is perfect and altogether lovely. But the inclusion of sabbath days with the other shadows would indicate that some change has been made to it's administration. In studying that, the only conclusion that seemed to make sense was that, as Christ is our Sabbath rest, honoring the Sabbath must refer to honoring Christ, not a single day bound up with 'touch nots, taste nots, & handle nots', but every day and always. (Still haven't figured out how to do that add-on thingy, except a couple of times by accident)

 

[Mushroom]

Brad,
Not to be cute, but did you try searching for older threads? Things are beaten to death here and you are not the only person in the world that every had a question on the Puritan position on the Lord's day, the Christian Sabbath. What books have you read on the subject that explain or attempt to explain the view?

Chris,

My apologies, brother. As I said, I can be pretty dense. In fact, I'm not all that good a reader, so most of my theological reading is done in the Bible. I didn't search to find if anyone here had addressed my particular views on the matter in the vast archives of PB. I guess I was hoping that someone gifted in teaching would be willing to take the trouble to explain what I'm missing in vernacular terms so I could come to a clearer understanding if that's what is needed. It looks like you're not going to be that guy, and that's perfectly OK. I understand. 'Sabbatarianism for Dummies' is likely not an enticing task to undertake. But I do sincerely want to find what is the biblical view of the matter, because it appears that if one is true, the other might be sin.

If my inquiry is inappropriate, please just delete it.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Brad,
We have the Wadding Pool for just this kind of thing. Copy your post and start a new dedicated thread there.

Brad,
Not to be cute, but did you try searching for older threads? Things are beaten to death here and you are not the only person in the world that every had a question on the Puritan position on the Lord's day, the Christian Sabbath. What books have you read on the subject that explain or attempt to explain the view?

Chris,

My apologies, brother. As I said, I can be pretty dense. In fact, I'm not all that good a reader, so most of my theological reading is done in the Bible. I didn't search to find if anyone here had addressed my particular views on the matter in the vast archives of PB. I guess I was hoping that someone gifted in teaching would be willing to take the trouble to explain what I'm missing in vernacular terms so I could come to a clearer understanding if that's what is needed. It looks like you're not going to be that guy, and that's perfectly OK. I understand. 'Sabbatarianism for Dummies' is likely not an enticing task to undertake. But I do sincerely want to find what is the biblical view of the matter, because it appears that if one is true, the other might be sin.

If my inquiry is inappropriate, please just delete it.

 

[Mushroom]

Brad,
We have the Wadding Pool for just this kind of thing. Copy your post and start a new dedicated thread there.

I was under the impression that the 'Wading Pool' was intended for the 'newly reformed'. Having been reformed in my theology for some 14 years, I hadn't considered myself such, but brother, if that is where you think I belong, I will defer to your judgment and slouch my way over there.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Pardon me; you said you were not that good a reader. Give it a try; it at the very least is intended to be a non threatening "room" in this board to ask such questions.

Brad,
We have the Wadding Pool for just this kind of thing. Copy your post and start a new dedicated thread there.

I was under the impression that the 'Wading Pool' was intended for the 'newly reformed'. Having been reformed in my theology for some 14 years, I hadn't considered myself such, but brother, if that is where you think I belong, I will defer to your judgment and slouch my way over there.

 

[OPC'n]

Before basing any conclusions on differences between the Continental and Puritan views of the Sabbath, it's worth while to at least read this thread.

It's true. I did "read" it. I'll try to find it among my audio I have of him.

I hope the audio gives some substantive documentation. The great abundance of Mr. Edwards' children should have settled any doubt in people's minds.

Here is the audio I promised which comes from Desiring God John Piper's site. link

 

[Tim]

Why not support your local high school or college team (Friday and Saturday games)?

Was this aimed at anyone in particular as there is no quote?

Just a general statement, I can assure you.

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

This is no way to use “the market day of the soul” of which the Puritans spoke. People who don’t like the biblical Lord’s Day will not like heaven.

This is so true. We keep the Lord's day/Sabbath as an "earnest penny" toward that glorious final Sabbath rest with Christ in eternity. If you don't call the Sabbath a delight then pray earnestly the God would make you a fit vessel for his glory.

People who do not like to honor their mothers and fathers would not like Heaven, nor would people who look at p0rnography, or people who commit any other sin. I disagree. I think in Heaven, when the work which has begun is complete, we will all love to be in heaven. Not because we are used to not sinning, but because we will be fully sanctified.
Your understanding of the Sabbath has come to you by God's grace. As such, I don't think there's any room for statements like those above, where you suggest that other people who have different understandings of God's word, would not like Heaven and need to pray to be better fit! We all need to pray for that, none of us are fit to enjoy heaven or be His glory.

The intent of my original remark was not to suggest there is any priority of sins in regard to their compatibility with heaven.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 04:35:18 EST-----

Why not support your local high school or college team (Friday and Saturday games)?

Sadly, many believers, even Reformed, even officers of Reformed churches, think nothing of attending or watching their favorite high school or college team on the Lord’s Day, even if it may mean missing public worship.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 04:37:20 EST-----

I hate football!

What do your tastes or preferences have to do with it?

Good you are not tempted in this way; but the Sabbath is the question.

 

[he beholds]

People who do not like to honor their mothers and fathers would not like Heaven, nor would people who look at p0rnography, or people who commit any other sin. I disagree. I think in Heaven, when the work which has begun is complete, we will all love to be in heaven. Not because we are used to not sinning, but because we will be fully sanctified.
Your understanding of the Sabbath has come to you by God's grace. As such, I don't think there's any room for statements like those above, where you suggest that other people who have different understandings of God's word, would not like Heaven and need to pray to be better fit! We all need to pray for that, none of us are fit to enjoy heaven or be His glory.

The intent of my original remark was not to suggest there is any priority of sins in regard to their compatibility with heaven.

My response was just that our lack of love for any of the law of God will be removed once our faith is perfected. Therefore, I don't think you can say, "since you sin, you will not like Heaven."

 

[Mushroom]

Pardon me; you said you were not that good a reader. Give it a try; it at the very least is intended to be a non threatening "room" in this board to ask such questions.

Brad,
We have the Wadding Pool for just this kind of thing. Copy your post and start a new dedicated thread there.

I was under the impression that the 'Wading Pool' was intended for the 'newly reformed'. Having been reformed in my theology for some 14 years, I hadn't considered myself such, but brother, if that is where you think I belong, I will defer to your judgment and slouch my way over there.

Perhaps I should have said 'voracious a reader'. Time and temperament conspire to leave barely enough to adequately read scripture, so being buried in mountains of uninspired verbiage causes me to shudder and faint. Hence the quote in my sig from Isaiah below.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 04:58:37 EST-----

Sadly, many believers, even Reformed, even officers of Reformed churches, think nothing of attending or watching their favorite high school or college team on the Lord’s Day, even if it may mean missing public worship.

Sadly perhaps for you, but for those of us not willing to bind others with our personal scruples concerning what is acceptable for the Lord's day, there is no sorrow attached.

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

I find this to be an imposition of one person's conscience upon another. We are all bound by God, but such accusations appear to place man in bondage to the law of the Sabbath and to the doctrine of men.

When one contends for what he says he “sincerely receive and adopt ... as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scriptures,” he is not imposing his private opinion upon another, accusing others of being less holy, nor attempting to place men in bondage to the doctrine of men.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 05:11:01 EST-----

This may be stretching what's permitted on this board. Any moderation clarifying might be helpful. I have no wish to step over the line here. But argumentation has been set forth which I perceive deserves an response.

OK

I'm not strictly moderating here, but the thread is going off track. Pastor Ferrell has set out the historical and confessional understanding of the issue. There may be some difference in minor details here or there in interpretation historically, but it is undeniable that his view is solidly within the confessions as understood for centuries.

He also stated that the point was not to make a list of prohibited activities and focus on that. I completely agree.

So any further argument about lists, like whether you can use electricity, burn wood, etc., is going to lead into a fruitless area.

On the other hand, the necessity issue is a great area for each of us to meditate on and seek to understand for ourselves. Maybe for me electricity is not a necessity strictly speaking, but it sure helps me in winter to read scripture. Which is more important, sitting in a dark cold room secure in the understanding that I'm am not purchasing the fruits of someone's Sabbath breaking, or reading scripture and commentaries?

So, please, let's avoid the ad absurdum discussion because, ultimately, one can argue that eating and breathing is labor too.

Still, there is plenty of room for discussion about the difference between forcing your servants to work when you don't (does that mean a waitress you've never meant?--maybe it does) or supporting a market that provides entertainment services by employing people on the Lord's Day.

So, please, away with the ad absurdum argument and maybe we can get back on track for a useful way to learn to delight in His Day.

I agree with this completely. My point isn't to make an absurd argument, but to point out that when you start getting into particulars of what is lawful/unlawful on the Lord's Day, which is the very nature of this thread, then we cannot help but descend into ad absurdum argument. Pastor Ferrell is making an absolute statement that something is sinful when I don't think it can be Scripturally or logically supported. I agree that his view is well within historical and Confessional bounds - I believe mine is as well.

Nothing stopping you from starting a thread on the permissibility of using gas or electricity on the Lord’s Day. However, the question in this thread has to do with the permissibility of participation, watching or condoning organized sports or other televised events on the Lord’s Day.

Why is it that the non-Sabbatarians here are the ones splitting hairs and making lists.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 05:20:46 EST-----

..... for those of us not willing to bind others with our personal scruples concerning what is acceptable for the Lord's day, there is no sorrow attached.

For most of those who are officers in a Presbyterian or Reformed denominations requiring confessional subscription, this is not a personal scruple.

A seriously shrunken and minimal confession and lack of integrity in subscription are serious matters. Issues such as Lord’s Day observance highlight where we are as a Reformed community and raise valid concerns.