Need advice from Credo's who are in Paedo denominations

[Mocha]

Need advice from Credo\'s who are in Paedo denominations

I am seeking advice from a Credo who is either in a Peado denomination now or who was at some point in a Paedo denomination as a Credo but has left.

Around the beginning of October, me and my family left our Reformed Baptist church because it was almost a hour drive and we found ourselves making that drive serveral times a week. Since we didn't have a Reformed Baptist church near us, we decided to try out an Independant Reformed Church that was near us. The preaching and the fellowship are wonderful. We love it to death!

The church has been patient as I have been studying the subject of "Baptism". My "full" membership depends on my conclusion. After a lot of study, I'm convinced that the Credo view is the most Scriptural view, and this weekend I will be telling the church that.

The church has said that if I do not hold to the Paedo view, I will not be allowed "full" membership, however, they may give me "guest membership". I would not be allowed to serve in the church or vote, but I would be allowed to attend and I would be under the authority of the church.

My questions to you Credo's in Paedo denominations are:

1) Are you in a similar situation? Are you excluded from serving in the church and from voting? If so, how are you handling it? If not, what kind of arrangement do you have?

2) Based on your experience, would you recommend staying in this good Bible teaching church and just accept the limitations, or would you recommend looking for another church. There is a big Baptist church that I can go to, but it's Arminian, fundamentalist and depensational. I'm not sure I can stomach that!

3) Do you have any words of wisdom for this situation?

Whether you respond or not, I would appreciate your prayers concerning this matter. I need God's wisdom to make the right decision.

Mike

[Edited on 1-25-2006 by Mocha]

 

[pastorway]

I am not in that situation, but I do understand the issue of the drive being a hardship. However, we have a family that drives about an hour and another that drives two hours and fifteen minutes to come to our church because there is not a sound Reformed Baptist Church closer.

Is the drive such an issue that you feel you cannot be a part of that Reformed Baptist Church at all? In other words, if a Reformed church that is closer will not let you join as a full member why sacrifice church membership for the convenience of a short drive?

I really do not see degrees of church membership in the Scriptures anyway. You either are or are not a member of the local church. Allowing for half-way membership is really just adding a group of second class Christians to the church rolls.

Phillip

 

[sastark]

Praying for you. I'm a PB in a PB church, so I can't offer any advice other than studying the issue further. But I am praying for you.

 

[Bladestunner316]

I know puddlgum(credo-unless thats changed) is at the OPC Kent church and they allow credo members. It seems to work rather well. But she can answer that better than me

blade

 

[Mike]

Originally posted by Mocha
I am seeking advice from a Credo who is either in a Peado denomination now or who was at some point in a Paedo denomination as a Credo but has left.

I am a credobaptist in a PCA church.

1) Are you in a similar situation? Are you excluded from serving in the church and from voting? If so, how are you handling it? If not, what kind of arrangement do you have?

I am a full member of my church. I can vote.

I don't know what you mean by serving. I could obviously not be an ordained officer (at the very least not an elder... I think I might had heard of a credobaptist deacon in a PCA church once, but I don't see that happening in a well-established church like mine.) This makes perfect sense: I don't expect them to support the propogation of beliefs contrary to their own. However, I can certainly serve in various ways, with a looser definition. I've been involved in a couple committies and ministries, helped arrange a few activities, prepared food, cleaned up after communion and events, and moved more chairs than anyone can count.

2) Based on your experience, would you recommend staying in this good Bible teaching church and just accept the limitations, or would you recommend looking for another church. There is a big Baptist church that I can go to, but it's Arminian, fundamentalist and depensational. I'm not sure I can stomach that!

I don't know what I'd recommend. I am personally planning on seeking out a baptistic church the next time I am in need of finding a new church. I think I am prepared to deal with Arminian, fundamentalist, and dispensational.

3) Do you have any words of wisdom for this situation?

Can't really say that I do. Make sure you commit.

 

[matt01]

Originally posted by Mocha
My questions to you Credo's in Paedo denominations are:

1) Are you in a similar situation? Are you excluded from serving in the church and from voting? If so, how are you handling it? If not, what kind of arrangement do you have?

I am a Reformed Baptist, attending a PCA church. We are unable to join the congregation, but the Pastor does provide oversight. It is not formal, in the sense that we aren't "eligible for discipline. It is closer to that of a wise, older friend.
We do not participate in the Lord's Supper, as the church requires membership in a local cogregation.
My wife plays piano for the congregation. We serve the congregation as all Christians are called to serve, but I would never be allowed to "serve" in the pulpit or as a Deacon.

2) Based on your experience, would you recommend staying in this good Bible teaching church and just accept the limitations, or would you recommend looking for another church. There is a big Baptist church that I can go to, but it's Arminian, fundamentalist and depensational. I'm not sure I can stomach that!

This is the closest church for us, that we are able to attend in good conscience. If there was a faithful RB or even reforming baptist church within an hour, we would most likely join it. We would prefer another congregation, which we could join, but it hasn't worked out that way. Go where God calls you.

3) Do you have any words of wisdom for this situation?

As a good friend told me on many occasion, "Love God and do what is right."

 

[Romans922]

What presbyterian denomination are you in? PCA allows nonpaedos to be members, but those who are ordained must agree with WCF, BCO, etc.

 

[Bladestunner316]

matthew,
how does being credo baptist exclude you from partaking of the Lords Supper?

blade

 

[Puddleglum]

Mike,

Nate's right - I'm a member of an OP church, but I've yet to become a good Presbyterian!

Mike's situation sounds pretty similar. (There are two Mike's in this discussion, right?)

Credos can't be officers - and that's not a matter of individual church polity; there's no way a credo could in good conscience take the vows to become an officer.

The position of the elders at my church is that they as undershepherds can't make the doors of the kingdom any narrower than Christ, the Shepherd, has made them - so anyone who has a credible profession of faith can be a member. And they're willing to tell that to people who'd take issue with it against me . . . which I really appreciate.

So I'm a full voting member, I can help out however - it's not like I'd ever be an officer anyways - and I do know that one of the current Sunday school teachers is a credo. Though if you're a teacher and you're credo, you have to teach the church's position, or have someone else teach, if it comes up (which makes sense).

I suppose that if I were married and had kids, that they'd want to talk to me a bit more about it . . . but it's not really an issue with me; we talked about it in membership prep and during the membership interview, but only once (I think) since. And there are families with kids who haven't had their kids baptized.

Anyways, as to what I'd suggest you do . . . first, go somewhere where you'll hear the Gospel preached. If that's the Independent Reformed Church, so be it. I know that I would really struggle if I went to a fundamental, dispensational, Arminian church - even if they were baptist. But that's not something that I can decide for you. Then, try to go somewhere where you can be a member. I don't like the concept of guest membership - but it does sound a little bit better than Matthew's situation, because you are going to be held accountable.

If you can make the drive to the Reformed Baptist church, great! If not - I'd stick it out at the Independent Reformed Church. You're hearing the Gospel and you will be held accountable . . . and I'm assuming that they'll let you serve in some ways - even if it is just moving chairs (which can be a huge help!).

 

[Puddleglum]

Nate,
Some churches require you to be a member to partake - if Matthew can't be a member cause he's credo, that would exclude him. I'm assuming that's what's going on . . . though maybe I should just have let him answer!

 

[Bladestunner316]

To me that doesnt seem right. But I wont comment any furthur since I have not studied their position in full. It just sounds a bit to exsclusive. Not that baptism is not an important issue but not important enough In my mind to deny the Lords table to a fellow brother or sister.

blade

 

[Puritanhead]

I understand the long-driving blues. I have a one-half hour round trip anyway... that is too much for me. I prefer no more than ten minutes and twenty minute round trip.

 

[matt01]

Romans922 wrote

What presbyterian denomination are you in? PCA allows nonpaedos to be members, but those who are ordained must agree with WCF, BCO, etc

I attend a PCA church. Credo types are able to join, but they must be willing to baptize their children. This is a defacto denial of membership to anyone who truly believes in the credo baptism. I have no problem with this, in fact, I agree with the churches right to "œfence" their membership.

Bladestunner316 wrote

how does being credo baptist exclude you from partaking of the Lords Supper?

Basically what Puddleglum said; being a credo doesn´t exclude me from the Lord´s Supper. In the Pastor´s fencing of the table, he says that only those who are members, in good standing, of a local church may partake of the Lord´s Supper. When my wife and I resigned from our former congregation, we immediately taking the sacrament in order to conform to the wishes of the congregation.

My intent in posting wasn´t to debate these ideas; I only intended to give my perspective to the situation.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

My questions to you Credo's in Paedo denominations are:

1) Are you in a similar situation? Are you excluded from serving in the church and from voting? If so, how are you handling it? If not, what kind of arrangement do you have?

I am a member of a PCA. I was also asked to teach the Teens Group. I am allowed to partake communion with them. I attend the meetings and have a say on that part of the church. I don't know much of the other stuff and would prefer not to. I just want to be a witness for Christ and His grace. I also want anyone I witness to to have a good Gospel Preaching Church to attend so I have chosen the PCA that is near my home. They are faithful in their witness for Christ.

2) Based on your experience, would you recommend staying in this good Bible teaching church and just accept the limitations, or would you recommend looking for another church. There is a big Baptist church that I can go to, but it's Arminian, fundamentalist and depensational. I'm not sure I can stomach that!

As stated above I am looking for a true representation of Christ and His atonement for our sin. I also believe it to be important that the Kingdom of Christ is proclaimed. I believe the Arminian, fundamentalist, Dispensational church does not do that.

3) Do you have any words of wisdom for this situation?

It is important to be under a churches authority and to serve in the capacity that both benefits your Family, church, and neighbors. You don't need to be a voting member or Elder to do that. It is also very imperitive that you be honest but undivisive. Walk in humility.

Randy

[Edited on 1-26-2006 by puritancovenanter]

 

[Bladestunner316]

Sorry I didnt mean to debate

 

[turmeric]

Matthew,
Maybe your pastor would be open to making an exception in your case, as you chose his church in order to hear the Gospel, and the Lord's Supper is a sacrament as well. Maybe you have talked to him, our church fences the Supper in a similar way, encouraging people to join a church, we also son't insist people baptize their infants unless they want to be officers.

 

[Mocha]

Originally posted by pastorway
I am not in that situation, but I do understand the issue of the drive being a hardship. However, we have a family that drives about an hour and another that drives two hours and fifteen minutes to come to our church because there is not a sound Reformed Baptist Church closer.

Is the drive such an issue that you feel you cannot be a part of that Reformed Baptist Church at all? In other words, if a Reformed church that is closer will not let you join as a full member why sacrifice church membership for the convenience of a short drive?

I really do not see degrees of church membership in the Scriptures anyway. You either are or are not a member of the local church. Allowing for half-way membership is really just adding a group of second class Christians to the church rolls.

Phillip

Phillip,

Thank you for your response. You said:

Is the drive such an issue that you feel you cannot be a part of that Reformed Baptist Church at all? In other words, if a Reformed church that is closer will not let you join as a full member why sacrifice church membership for the convenience of a short drive?

There were basically four reasons for leaving our Reformed Baptist church:

1) Distance - making 4 or 5 trips a week
2) Gas prices - unpredictable
3) My children (18 & 16 years old) wanted Christian friends close to home
4) My wife and I were driving an hour everytime we wanted to fellowship with our church family.
5) The city where the Reformed Baptist church is already has two Deaf ministries. The city where I live has none. I have started a bi-weekly Bible study and already we have about 12-15 Deaf coming out. I would like to establish a Deaf ministry in my city.

Right now my teaching ministry and my life at the Reformed church are separate. I know I'm going to have to work that out somehow.

You said:

I really do not see degrees of church membership in the Scriptures anyway. You either are or are not a member of the local church. Allowing for half-way membership is really just adding a group of second class Christians to the church rolls.

If the preaching/teaching and fellowship were not so good I might consider going back to my old church. But since it is so good, I'm reluctant to leave, even though there are limitations.

Mike

 

[Mocha]

Originally posted by sastark
Praying for you. I'm a PB in a PB church, so I can't offer any advice other than studying the issue further. But I am praying for you.

Seth,

Thank you for your prayers. I really appreciate it!

Mike

 

[Mocha]

Mike,

You said:

am a full member of my church. I can vote.

I don't know what you mean by serving. I could obviously not be an ordained officer (at the very least not an elder... I think I might had heard of a credobaptist deacon in a PCA church once, but I don't see that happening in a well-established church like mine.) This makes perfect sense: I don't expect them to support the propogation of beliefs contrary to their own. However, I can certainly serve in various ways, with a looser definition. I've been involved in a couple committies and ministries, helped arrange a few activities, prepared food, cleaned up after communion and events, and moved more chairs than anyone can count.

That's interesting that you can be part of a paedo denomination and yet have full membership. Can you vote?

I'm not sure if you can answer this, but, suppose I wanted to have a teaching ministry to the Deaf in your church, would they allow me? I realize that I could not teach against the paedo view, and would have to get someone else to teach the area of baptism, but I am interesteed in your opinion.

Mike

 

[Mocha]

Matthew,

You said:

I am a Reformed Baptist, attending a PCA church. We are unable to join the congregation, but the Pastor does provide oversight. It is not formal, in the sense that we aren't "eligible for discipline. It is closer to that of a wise, older friend.
We do not participate in the Lord's Supper, as the church requires membership in a local cogregation.
My wife plays piano for the congregation. We serve the congregation as all Christians are called to serve, but I would never be allowed to "serve" in the pulpit or as a Deacon.

My wife and I are allowed to participate in the Lord's Supper if we get approval as a guest participant (or whatever the name is) before the service.

My situation is a little different than yours. I know that I cannot serve in a formal way as an elder or deacon, but my capacity in the Deaf ministry involes teaching, counselling, praying with the Deaf, visiting the hospital, and a general shepherding role. I'm still not sure what would be allowed and what would not be allowed. That hasn't ben spelled out yet. When they said I couldn't serve, it probably meant that I couldn't serve formally as an elder or deacon...but I'm not sure.

Thanks for your response!

Mike

 

[Mocha]

Originally posted by Romans922
What presbyterian denomination are you in? PCA allows nonpaedos to be members, but those who are ordained must agree with WCF, BCO, etc.

Our church has not joined a denomination yet. We have been looking at the URC and OPC (in Canada), but so far there has been no decision.

You say that the PCA allow non-paedos to become members. Do you know if the PCA have any papers on line that deal with why they have decided it's alright for credo's to become members? Maybe there is something there I can present to my church.

Mike

 

[Mike]

Originally posted by Mocha
That's interesting that you can be part of a paedo denomination and yet have full membership. Can you vote?

As I clarified above, I can vote. I am a member. Period.

I'm not sure if you can answer this, but, suppose I wanted to have a teaching ministry to the Deaf in your church, would they allow me? I realize that I could not teach against the paedo view, and would have to get someone else to teach the area of baptism, but I am interesteed in your opinion.

I am not certain. I'd tend to think so, depending on what exactly the ministry entailed. I certainly think it is likely that they would allow you to help with a deaf ministry if there already existed one at the church, but I am not sure if they would allow someone who could never be in an ordained, teaching position to lead a teaching ministry.

 

[Mocha]

Originally posted by Puddleglum
Mike,

Nate's right - I'm a member of an OP church, but I've yet to become a good Presbyterian!

Mike's situation sounds pretty similar. (There are two Mike's in this discussion, right?)

Credos can't be officers - and that's not a matter of individual church polity; there's no way a credo could in good conscience take the vows to become an officer.

The position of the elders at my church is that they as undershepherds can't make the doors of the kingdom any narrower than Christ, the Shepherd, has made them - so anyone who has a credible profession of faith can be a member. And they're willing to tell that to people who'd take issue with it against me . . . which I really appreciate.

So I'm a full voting member, I can help out however - it's not like I'd ever be an officer anyways - and I do know that one of the current Sunday school teachers is a credo. Though if you're a teacher and you're credo, you have to teach the church's position, or have someone else teach, if it comes up (which makes sense).

I suppose that if I were married and had kids, that they'd want to talk to me a bit more about it . . . but it's not really an issue with me; we talked about it in membership prep and during the membership interview, but only once (I think) since. And there are families with kids who haven't had their kids baptized.

Anyways, as to what I'd suggest you do . . . first, go somewhere where you'll hear the Gospel preached. If that's the Independent Reformed Church, so be it. I know that I would really struggle if I went to a fundamental, dispensational, Arminian church - even if they were baptist. But that's not something that I can decide for you. Then, try to go somewhere where you can be a member. I don't like the concept of guest membership - but it does sound a little bit better than Matthew's situation, because you are going to be held accountable.

If you can make the drive to the Reformed Baptist church, great! If not - I'd stick it out at the Independent Reformed Church. You're hearing the Gospel and you will be held accountable . . . and I'm assuming that they'll let you serve in some ways - even if it is just moving chairs (which can be a huge help!).

I found your post to be encouraging! It looks like you have a church that is willing to be a little flexible with you. Voting and teaching (even if in a limited sense) is pretty good.

You say you belong to the OPC. Do all OPC allow credo's to become members or do you only know about your own church. The OPC is one of the denominations our church is considering joining, so there may be hope.

Thanks again for your response!

Mike

 

[Mocha]

Randy,

You said:

It is important to be under a churches authority and to serve in the capacity that both benefits your Family, church, and neighbors. You don't need to be a voting member or Elder to do that. It is also very imperitive that you be honest but undivisive. Walk in humility.

A few things are import here. 1) I want a good Bible preaching church for me and my family. 2) I want to use my gift of ministering to the Deaf community. 3) We want to belong to a godly Christian church family where we enjoy the fellowship

We certainly find #1 and # 3 at our new church, but I'm not sure how #2 will work out, and that is very important to me. I might have to do all my Deaf ministry outside of the church so that there will not be a conflict.

Thanks for your response!

Mike

 

[CDM]

I don't know what I'd recommend. I am personally planning on seeking out a baptistic church the next time I am in need of finding a new church. I think I am prepared to deal with Arminian, fundamentalist, and dispensational.

I don't want to start a debate or take the thread off track. But, is the issue of Baptism of such importance to you that you would go to a church that denied the Doctrines of Grace? Not to mention the Left Behind soap opera that is dispensationalism.

 

[Mike]

Originally posted by mangum
I don't want to start a debate or take the thread off track. But, is the issue of Baptism of such importance to you that you would go to a church that denied the Doctrines of Grace? Not to mention the Left Behind soap opera that is dispensationalism.

I have started this post a few times, and deleted what I wrote. I don't really know what to say here. It is not that I think the issue of age and mode of baptism outweighs the myriad of theological and practical positions I would side with the Presbyterians on. I certainly wouldn't intend to mean that. There are a lot of issues involved, and I don't really want to get into them right now.

Would you want to spend the rest of your life in credobaptist churches? What would you deal with not to do so, especially if you did not dissent on confessional issues?


edit: I obviously do see where you are coming from. Obviously... I'm part of a paedobaptistic church right now. I love it there. This is not something where my zeal for credobaptism is just overruling all things.

[Edited on 1-27-2006 by Mike]

 

[pastorway]

Is the Reformed Baptist Church you used to attend in any position to plant a church in your area??

That would allow you to be in a church that shares your convictions as well as having the ministry to the deaf under the oversight of the church, which I think is very important.

Phillip

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Mike,

I'll just add my encouragement from an opposite direction. I am a paedobaptist attending a credo-Baptist Church. In my case, however, I had no Reformed Church options and am attending a Southern Baptist Church with generally poor preaching and immature worship. I don't want to use the term "envy" but I would love to be in the position where the preaching of the Word was faithful and baptism was the only issue I struggled with because, quite frankly, it doesn't come up at all at the Church I attend even though folks know I'm Presbyterian.

Your situation is even made less complicated by the fact that your children are grown. I have a daughter due in March that I will be unable to baptize in the Church I attend and have the Church celebrate, with me, the joy of welcoming a new Covenant child into the Church. I speak as a paedobaptist, I know, because that is who I am. It is merely to help you appreciate how sad it makes me because I love the brethren here because Christ commands me and I cannot help myself.

It was a difficult decision to make - joining a Church with poor preaching and one that my children would not be members of. Why did I do so?

1. I could have attended a home group on Sunday where some Presbyterians watch R.C. Sproul videos and discuss. There is no pastor - hence there is no Church. I believe worship on Sunday is to be at a Church.

2. I could have attended Chapel where there are variously paedobaptist ministers of different persuasions. I did my first Sunday here. I walked out before the Service when the Sermon notes revealed that the Preacher was no minister of the Gospel.

3. The preaching at my Church now, while immature, has enough to commend to it that is is the Gospel. I would prefer it to be better but it is far better than not attending Church or going to a Church where humanism is preached.

The biggest reason:

4. I earnestly believed I was needed at the Church. It is an international Church that has suffered long with poor leadership and teaching. They allow me to teach adult Sunday School. As a man who understands authority I believe it would be reprehensible for me to teach anything relating to baptism where I would be a wrecking ball in the Church. I teach to edify and give them the milk of the Gospel which they have not heard for some time now. The feedback is very gratifying.

I guess I cannot say, in the end, that the baptism isue is not a big deal but for me, where my vocation has taken me for now, it is not enough to set aside more fundamental issues. I think it is the same for you.

I agree with the reasons why you are attending the paedobaptist Church. I don't believe that an hour drive for the sake of the baptism issue at the expense of fellowship is worth the trade, especially as your children are already in their late teens. If the preaching is faithful and your opportunity for service in that area is great then I think you should be thankful that you are in a Church where the Gospel is faithfully preached. It is not a common thing worldwide and all who have options should be doubly grateful to almighty God.

As much as you know I can be strident against the credo-Baptist position, I never hesitate to call a man who trusts in Christ my Brother. It is not a grudging love that I give to my current congregation but a love that overflows from the love that has been given to me. I do not dwell on wishing they would see Baptism my way but look for ways to serve a congregation.

Let me close by saying how small our problems are in comparison to Masakosan - a poor Japanese lady that attends our Church. In the Japanese culture when women get old they are supposed to be cared for by their family. She is a Christian, her family are Buddhists. She is poor. They are very wealthy. She has many health problems that wrack her body with pain such that she must recover for days after the effort it takes her to attend Church.

She struggles to pay her medical bills and the doctors ask her "Why is your family not helping you with your bills?" They do not help her because she is a Christian. Worse, they mock her: "You have God to take care of you."

Does she complain to God? She cries out to Him merely that she might be with Him someday soon. She trusts mightily in Him in a way that shames me.

When she learned that I would be staying in Okinawa for longer than a year with my family she exclaimed: "Oh that is so good Mr. Rich. You know the Bible so good." I was on the fence about joining the Church until I felt like people like her really needed and wanted me there.

So do I have a few problems with being a paedobaptist in a Southern Baptist Church? I suppose but I have Masakosan to remind me of what's important.

 

[matt01]

Originally posted by turmeric
Matthew,
Maybe your pastor would be open to making an exception in your case, as you chose his church in order to hear the Gospel, and the Lord's Supper is a sacrament as well. Maybe you have talked to him, our church fences the Supper in a similar way, encouraging people to join a church, we also son't insist people baptize their infants unless they want to be officers.

I have spoken to our pastor. The position that the church holds, is not the predominate one of the PCA, but it is the one that they hold to. I respect their right/duty to hold to what they feel is the most Biblical position. The church may have never asked us to stop taking communion, but when we resigned our membership we felt that it was important that we stop approaching the table under we were officially under the oversight of a church.

We could join, and would be very welcome; but we have also been informed that we would face discipline if we didn't baptize our children. I respect this position, but will not be placing myself in its path anytime soon.

[Edited on 1-30-06 by matthew]

 

[Mocha]

Originally posted by pastorway
Is the Reformed Baptist Church you used to attend in any position to plant a church in your area??

That would allow you to be in a church that shares your convictions as well as having the ministry to the deaf under the oversight of the church, which I think is very important.

Phillip

Phillip,

I have heard that there is interest in planting a Reformed Baptist church in my area but I don't expect this to happen for another few years. When or if this happens, it seems the obvious place to worship and serve.

I've been thinking along those lines too.

Mike