Need advice

[SolaSaint]

At church services tonight I was in a conversation with a lady after service and we were talking about how God had helped us both quit smoking when we first were born again. She stated that God actually spoke to her in an audible voice to quit smoking. How would you all respond to a claim like that. Is this something I should acknowledge and let it go, or should I have confronted her if she had really heard the voice of God? Myself I don't believe God speaks audibly to men these days, if I'm wrong please show me. It always worries me when people claim they have audibly heard God speak. It carries the same concern as does the speaking in tongues issue for me. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Should we confront people on this or just ignore their claims? Thanks and God bless.

 

[David]

I have seen a number of people in my church and denomination claim to have been audibly spoken to by God, however, I don't know what to make of it. It isn't something I have really thought about before.

 

[Herald]

Rick, perhaps the best way to handle it would be,

"I am glad to hear that God impressed upon your heart the desire to quit smoking."

Unless you are involved in a more detailed theological discussion with this woman I would avoid a contentious debate.

 

[Tim]

Find out where she is in her understanding:

Does she understand the Gospel?
Does she understand the Trinity?
Does she understand about the inerrency of scripture?

I am also in a situation where I come across people who say silly things like that. What I have learned is that they often fail to understand things that are so much more basic. For example, I have had discussions with people on fine theological points only to find out that they didn't even know what Calvinism was!

Usually, you can first find some basic point with which you can encourage and instruct that person.

 

[Andres]

ask her, "how do you know it was God's voice you heard?"

 

[ewenlin]

Rick, perhaps the best way to handle it would be,

"I am glad to hear that God impressed upon your heart the desire to quit smoking."

Unless you are involved in a more detailed theological discussion with this woman I would avoid a contentious debate.

Depending on her

1. Theological inclinations/ability/knowledge

2. Relationship with you

3. Walk with God

Best thing that can happen if you do take up a theological discussion with her is that she agrees with you and realizes that whatever that is she heard, was not from God.

Even then, it might turn out ugly. That's why I'm with Elder Brown here. Unless your relationship is solid and you both are accustomed to healthy debates. Wouldn't want her faith to become weakened unnecessarily.

 

[Scott1]

One way reformed might look at this.

God's Word tells us the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 6:19

19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

and in various places, not to defile it. Since smoking is bad for it (and things that tend to destroy life and health are summarized as sixth commandment violations in the Westminster Standards), we might in one sense say God "spoke to me and told me to stop smoking."

The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding through God's Word, but not, ordinarily at least, in the extraordinary fashion.

You might try engaging this person with this, something very basic but very important- and trust God for the results in her life.

 

[LeeJUk]

First of all I want to make the point that nowhere in the new or old testament is it ever said that God has stopped speaking audibly to people or he will not speak audibly to people. This is something that cessationists have reasoned up since we now have scripture, therefore everything must have ceased.

Even if you are a cessationist, and believe that that passage in 1 cor is speaking about the closing of the canon of scripture, it doesn't say that all signs or wonders will cease, it only says that prophecy and tongues will cease if I remember correctly.

Where does the bible say anywhere that God only speaks through scripture?

And also on to a few examples, are we going to say that it was the devil or a delusion that leonard ravenhill heard when he was a young man, and he heard a voice behind him say Follow me, and from that point onwards he pursued full time ministry?

Are we to say that the devil said, or it was a delusion that Mark Driscoll had where God spoke to him and said "Marry this girl(forget her name), train men, preach the bible and plant churches".

Truth is were so scared of the charismatics were almost becoming liberal at least in our view of miracles.

 

[Scott1]

Given the pervasiveness of charismatic/pentecostal influence in this generation, it's understandable how these practices and their assumptions might be viewed uncritically from the standpoint of the whole of scripture.

A few thoughts to consider:

First of all I want to make the point that nowhere in the new or old testament is it ever said that God has stopped speaking audibly to people or he will not speak audibly to people.
Reformed would say that with the Scripture completed, the doctrine laid by the prophets and apostles is now completed and the ordinary way God speaks is through His Word. The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we study God's Word.


This is something that cessationists have reasoned up since we now have scripture, therefore everything must have ceased.

Usually that term is used to mean particularly unknown tongues and interpretation have, at least ordinarily ceased. In their context, they were a means of revelation.

It does not mean miracles of all kinds have ceased.

Consider the confessional summary of the doctrine of scripture...

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter V
Of Providence

...
III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure.

Even if you are a cessationist, and believe that that passage in 1 cor is speaking about the closing of the canon of scripture, it doesn't say that all signs or wonders will cease, it only says that prophecy and tongues will cease if I remember correctly.

I think that's right.

I Cor 12-14 though, as I understand it, in the case of unknown tongues and interpretation of unknown tongues in corporate worship has ceased though, because its purpose is fulfilled.

At that time, Scripture was not fully given so new revelation was actually coming in this way. The Word of God was not fully available to the Corinthians at that time.

Since the faith has now been once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) and the foundation of our faith laid by the prophets and apostles has been laid (Ephesians 2:20), something that was not true that time in Corinth, the means of special revelation has, at least in any ordinary sense, ceased.

Where does the bible say anywhere that God only speaks through scripture?

With the regulative principle in mind, one might ask...
With scripture complete, and self attesting to that fact, where does it establish special revelation outside of scripture.

(Remember, the regulative principle is we are to do what is explicitly commanded, not image we can do anything not explicitly prohibited. Understanding God's revealed will is governed by this.

And also on to a few examples, are we going to say that it was the devil or a delusion that leonard ravenhill heard when he was a young man, and he heard a voice behind him say Follow me, and from that point onwards he pursued full time ministry?

Are we to say that the devil said, or it was a delusion that Mark Driscoll had where God spoke to him and said "Marry this girl(forget her name), train men, preach the bible and plant churches".

We would need to know more context of this claim, however, suffice it to say, this would appear to directly contradict I Timothy 2:12. So a "revelation" to not obey what God has commanded through Scripture, would be invalid from the start.

Truth is were so scared of the charismatics were almost becoming liberal at least in our view of miracles.

Hopefully, many of us who have had exposure to charismatic/pentecostal influence in the past, pray that their communions will become grounded on the Word of God.

 

[SolaSaint]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I will prayerfully consider what to do with your advice. I truly believe I will not confront her for I do not want to weaken any ones faith. But if I feel she is giving others serious considerations about their ability to hear God speak, or giving them doubts if they don't, then I believe I will approach the church leadership.

Here's a question I just pondered. If you truly thought you heard God speak to you audibly, would you let others know, especially if it didn't involve them as in this case? I would never limit God in that He couldn't speak to me, but I'm not sure I would tell anyone if He did, except my wife.

 

[ewenlin]

I don't know if you've read this before, but I'll post it anyway.

The Morning I Heard the Voice of God :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

On the contrary, I rather God speak to me through His Word, as it is that which we are more sure of 2 Pet. 2:18.

But to answer your question, sure I'll tell my wife. But it could very well be the devil speaking to me as much as God for all I know.

 

[Christusregnat]

God told me to roll my own, to buy a Romeo y Julieta, and to get some moist cavendish, tamp it in my pipe and puff away. He also suggested a 15-year Scotch to go with.

 

[Scott1]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I will prayerfully consider what to do with your advice. I truly believe I will not confront her for I do not want to weaken any ones faith. But if I feel she is giving others serious considerations about their ability to hear God speak, or giving them doubts if they don't, then I believe I will approach the church leadership.

Here's a question I just pondered. If you truly thought you heard God speak to you audibly, would you let others know, especially if it didn't involve them as in this case? I would never limit God in that He couldn't speak to me, but I'm not sure I would tell anyone if He did, except my wife.

Without knowing the background and relationship with the person it's hard to know what to do.

I would 'ere slightly on the side of telling the truth, seasonably in context.

Remember, God put in the situation or with access for a reason.

Maybe something along the lines that "we understand that ordinarily God speaks to us through His Word, that's why His Word is so important... the Holy Spirit helps illuminate our understanding as we read the Word, and so that's ordinarily how God speaks to us."

Then, give an example from your own life how God "spoke to you" through His Word. Let God see fit how he uses this in her life.

 

[TimV]

Given what she's probably hearing from the pulpit, why wouldn't she think God doesn't speak to her?

 

[Peairtach]

See this thread and others in the Pneumatology section on prophecy and tongues.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f62/divine-revelation-real-made-up-my-head-51765/

 

[steadfast7]

Whether or not God continues to speak audibly, perform miracles, reveals Jesus to muslims in the middle east, etc, the fact remains that these phenomena is relatively widely attested by many people, they are convinced that it's God, and fruits of transformation generally result.

You can secretly disbelieve them if you wish, but if you confront them, you are basically telling them that they are hearing voices, seeing things, and experiencing events that aren't there. In essence, you are charging them with lunacy. Unless you are willing to do the loving thing and have them committed, or pay for their psych bills, or follow up with their treatment, just believe them and rejoice that they have met God in a life-transforming way.

choose your battles carefully.

 

[Andres]

Whether or not God continues to speak audibly, perform miracles, reveals Jesus to muslims in the middle east, etc, the fact remains that these phenomena is relatively widely attested by many people, they are convinced that it's God, and fruits of transformation generally result.

You can secretly disbelieve them if you wish, but if you confront them, you are basically telling them that they are hearing voices, seeing things, and experiencing events that aren't there. In essence, you are charging them with lunacy. Unless you are willing to do the loving thing and have them committed, or pay for their psych bills, or follow up with their treatment, just believe them and rejoice that they have met God in a life-transforming way.

choose your battles carefully.

I believe I see the point you are making in that, to deny God is directly speaking to them is essentially calling them a liar and hurt feelings are sure to follow.
HOWEVER... you say to choose our battles carefully... what battle is more important than the truth of God's eternal Word? If people say God is speaking to them audibly or appearing to them physically, then I believe we have a deeper issue than whether or not someone will be offended if we don't believe everything they say about their experience with God. These people who say God audibly spoke to them are going against sound doctrine and that always must be confronted.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I will prayerfully consider what to do with your advice. I truly believe I will not confront her for I do not want to weaken any ones faith. But if I feel she is giving others serious considerations about their ability to hear God speak, or giving them doubts if they don't, then I believe I will approach the church leadership.

Here's a question I just pondered. If you truly thought you heard God speak to you audibly, would you let others know, especially if it didn't involve them as in this case? I would never limit God in that He couldn't speak to me, but I'm not sure I would tell anyone if He did, except my wife.

There are many aspects of this that are troubling. It is good to be careful not to over throw anyones "faith." However, we should be discerning about where and what do we use to determine what is the God given faith.

3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

When she leaves the objective truth of the word of God, for what she describes as a personal, subjective experience do you think that this is a mark of a healthy "faith"? Did she mention that perhaps God has instructed her not to have lustful thoughts, or not to be a talebearer, or a thief?
[we already have these commands in the scripture]
We are instructed in the word of God that we have all we need that pertains to life and godliness. I had a grown woman look me in the eye and tell me the angel moroni appeared in her living room and told her the book of mormon was true. Should I have not spoken to her about this experience,that this is not what God does today? I might have disturbed her "faith" also, in fact I hoped I did.
Scott posted from the 1644 confession a very well worded teaching that addresses this head on . God has nowhere said that we should expect an audible word from heaven at anytime in our life.
Resist the current tide of enthusiasm for all extra-biblical revelation. Speak to this woman about how God has given to His Church the safeguard of the scripture alone for guidance in our lives as the Spirit opens truth to us.

 

[Susanna]

You asked, " If you truly thought you heard God speak to you audibly, would you let others know, especially if it didn't involve them as in this case?"

If I heard an audible voice I might either tell my doctor about it or most likely would have figured something in the Word caused my conscience to speak very clearly and loudly to me (within myself)- that or something spooky was going on.

To toss it off as a problem within myself first (my reasoning) would be my first choice.

My second choice would be to think something spooky had happened - which ultimately would just drive me to talk to God about it anyway (toot sweet)

Meds would be last.

If it involved someone else - I'd ESPECIALLY zip it.

Some day though.... woo hoo

 

[steadfast7]

Whether or not God continues to speak audibly, perform miracles, reveals Jesus to muslims in the middle east, etc, the fact remains that these phenomena is relatively widely attested by many people, they are convinced that it's God, and fruits of transformation generally result.

You can secretly disbelieve them if you wish, but if you confront them, you are basically telling them that they are hearing voices, seeing things, and experiencing events that aren't there. In essence, you are charging them with lunacy. Unless you are willing to do the loving thing and have them committed, or pay for their psych bills, or follow up with their treatment, just believe them and rejoice that they have met God in a life-transforming way.

choose your battles carefully.

I believe I see the point you are making in that, to deny God is directly speaking to them is essentially calling them a liar and hurt feelings are sure to follow.
HOWEVER... you say to choose our battles carefully... what battle is more important than the truth of God's eternal Word? If people say God is speaking to them audibly or appearing to them physically, then I believe we have a deeper issue than whether or not someone will be offended if we don't believe everything they say about their experience with God. These people who say God audibly spoke to them are going against sound doctrine and that always must be confronted.

Suppose that these people are not crazy but are actually hearing something. There are only a few possibilities of who's speaking. If God is glorified, life is transformed, and spiritual fruit is demonstrated, what's the most plausible answer? Why is it impossible for God to speak audibly? I don't scripture or sound doctrine forbids the possibility.

-----Added 11/25/2009 at 05:31:24 EST-----

The faith has been once for all delivered, yes; and special revelation for the church may have ceased, but God could still speak to someone falling asleep at the wheel to WAKE UP! .. can't he?

 

[Grillsy]

Whether or not God continues to speak audibly, perform miracles, reveals Jesus to muslims in the middle east, etc, the fact remains that these phenomena is relatively widely attested by many people, they are convinced that it's God, and fruits of transformation generally result.

You can secretly disbelieve them if you wish, but if you confront them, you are basically telling them that they are hearing voices, seeing things, and experiencing events that aren't there. In essence, you are charging them with lunacy. Unless you are willing to do the loving thing and have them committed, or pay for their psych bills, or follow up with their treatment, just believe them and rejoice that they have met God in a life-transforming way.

choose your battles carefully.

I believe I see the point you are making in that, to deny God is directly speaking to them is essentially calling them a liar and hurt feelings are sure to follow.
HOWEVER... you say to choose our battles carefully... what battle is more important than the truth of God's eternal Word? If people say God is speaking to them audibly or appearing to them physically, then I believe we have a deeper issue than whether or not someone will be offended if we don't believe everything they say about their experience with God. These people who say God audibly spoke to them are going against sound doctrine and that always must be confronted.

Suppose that these people are not crazy but are actually hearing something. There are only a few possibilities of who's speaking. If God is glorified, life is transformed, and spiritual fruit is demonstrated, what's the most plausible answer? Why is it impossible for God to speak audibly? I don't scripture or sound doctrine forbids the possibility.

-----Added 11/25/2009 at 05:31:24 EST-----

The faith has been once for all delivered, yes; and special revelation for the church may have ceased, but God could still speak to someone falling asleep at the wheel to WAKE UP! .. can't he?

God could indeed do so, but that would fall under special revelation. It would even be super-special-revelation.

 

[Andres]

Whether or not God continues to speak audibly, perform miracles, reveals Jesus to muslims in the middle east, etc, the fact remains that these phenomena is relatively widely attested by many people, they are convinced that it's God, and fruits of transformation generally result.

You can secretly disbelieve them if you wish, but if you confront them, you are basically telling them that they are hearing voices, seeing things, and experiencing events that aren't there. In essence, you are charging them with lunacy. Unless you are willing to do the loving thing and have them committed, or pay for their psych bills, or follow up with their treatment, just believe them and rejoice that they have met God in a life-transforming way.

choose your battles carefully.

I believe I see the point you are making in that, to deny God is directly speaking to them is essentially calling them a liar and hurt feelings are sure to follow.
HOWEVER... you say to choose our battles carefully... what battle is more important than the truth of God's eternal Word? If people say God is speaking to them audibly or appearing to them physically, then I believe we have a deeper issue than whether or not someone will be offended if we don't believe everything they say about their experience with God. These people who say God audibly spoke to them are going against sound doctrine and that always must be confronted.

Suppose that these people are not crazy but are actually hearing something. There are only a few possibilities of who's speaking. If God is glorified, life is transformed, and spiritual fruit is demonstrated, what's the most plausible answer? Why is it impossible for God to speak audibly? I don't scripture or sound doctrine forbids the possibility.

-----Added 11/25/2009 at 05:31:24 EST-----

The faith has been once for all delivered, yes; and special revelation for the church may have ceased, but God could still speak to someone falling asleep at the wheel to WAKE UP! .. can't he?

Brother, if you are asking me if God still speaks audibly to people, then I will answer the same answer that I gave in the previous post you just quoted: No.
The canon of scripture is closed and God no longer speaks to His people through special revelation. If you want to debate the issue of whether God still speaks audibly to people, perhaps you could start another thread, but this issue seems to have been adressed already in these threads:

God Told Me?
God Led Me?
The Still Small Voice

 

[steadfast7]

I agree, the thread is not about whether God speaks to people audibly, and there's no need to go there.

I'm suggesting possibilities when someone claims that God has spoken to them.

 

[Pergamum]

Whether or not God continues to speak audibly, perform miracles, reveals Jesus to muslims in the middle east, etc, the fact remains that these phenomena is relatively widely attested by many people, they are convinced that it's God, and fruits of transformation generally result.

You can secretly disbelieve them if you wish, but if you confront them, you are basically telling them that they are hearing voices, seeing things, and experiencing events that aren't there. In essence, you are charging them with lunacy. Unless you are willing to do the loving thing and have them committed, or pay for their psych bills, or follow up with their treatment, just believe them and rejoice that they have met God in a life-transforming way.

choose your battles carefully.

Let's separate out the Middle-Eastern dreams of Jesus. I wouldn't want to include them in the same category of audible voices.

20% of the Muslims in one SE Asian country in a particular province report dreams of Jesus being instrumental in leading them to become more open to the Bible or to seek out the Bible or a Christian.

This appears to have a precedent in Cornelius.

Also, any of these dreams of the Prophet Jesus need not be divinely revelatory at all, only providential - the inner conscience of the person speaking to them in their quiet hours.