No one is going to fault you for having a gentle spirit and striving to act in a manner worthy of the Gospel. But there is a place for righteous indignation. There is Biblical precedent for imprecatory praying and it's place in our own praying. They shouldn't be the norm and gentleness should be our defining characteristic but there is a time for anger.
This is not inconsistent with the reformers, quite the opposite. It is apparently going against a misconception you have and your passion to make tolerance a virtue.
I think you have properly defined what tolerance has been, and should be, and what our society is trying to make it be. Josh McDowell wrote a book on the subject called "The New Tolerance" which if someone has interest, is a very good book on the subject and was very useful to me while completing my undergraduate degree at a secular university.I suppose I would call tolerance a tool and it must be used with discernment. Tolerance today is taught as permissiveness and an acceptance of all opinions as equal. Tolerance is an attitude that is free of bias. I am not free of bias. Because I hold the Scriptures as the highest authority I am heavily biased to let Scripture define words and establish virtue. Because I believe that Jesus is Lord I am exclusive toward Christianity.
Interesting, because I recognize the image of God in every human (according to Gen. 9:6) I treat each person with respect as if they held a portion of divine dignity which they do. I receive much criticism from others who tell me, "You like everybody!" as if I am naive and simple to do so. I consider myself a peacemaker and I would rather not confront.
There are situations, however, where we are called to discernment and apply the principles of Scripture. There are times when we must proclaim the truth of scripture even if it offends. It you never offend anyone, then you are not engaging the culture properly and you are not proclaiming the Gospel as the apostles did it.
Thank you for your reply Geoff and thank you for your gentle humility.
These false prophets violate the third commandment.Ditto to Bob and Dog Machete Pantibulatorer.
My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck. This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence. May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.
You must have missed the strong condemnation of Jesus toward the Pharisee's and Scribes in the gospels. Jesus was not afraid to call them what they were, white washed seplecurs. Blasphemy is a violation of the the third commandment and should be condemned.The accusations you've made about me are slander. Nowhere have I said that one should "delight" in the death of the wicked. Nor was my response "calloused," "fleshly persecution," or the "anger of man." Each of you aforementioned assertions are a complete misunderstanding of my zeal for these false teachers to be silenced. I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul when he pronounces "Anathema" on false teachers. Your accusations against me are unfounded and without merit. You should really reconsider. I have mocked no one. I have simply made observations of the tomfoolery and blasphemy of these wolves in sheep's clothing.
This rhetoric will only embolden those caught in the movement. I find your wording of calling those "seized by this wickedness" "ignorant" both offense and irresponsible in the use of language. There is hardly a manner you can use that term where the negative connotation of it will not be percieved.My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck.
I think it requires love. But righteous anger is understandable. Your words do not, however, give me that impression. Wretched be their names? Again, I am thinking of this from the point of view of one who was in that movement. If heard this kind of language from a christian I would have labeled them a pharisee and walked on.This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence.
Again, more of the same. I don't see an ounce of compassion in this. Again, blind masses? Most of the folks in that movement are Christians. May they receive what all men born of Adam deserve? Dear Lord man, where is the compassion?May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.
Your response does not give the impression of any gentleness at all my brother. Therefore, I maintain that it is callous. Nor did I say you were fleshly persecuting them, whatever that means, but that's how it would be percieved by those in the movement.
And that I don't see in your reply either the nature of Christ or of an apostle, doesn't mean I am slandering you. And in this you say, "I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul.." is utterly amazing to me that you feel you can speak upon the same level and in the same spirit as an Apostle? Even the Apostle Paul? What?!?
Since the Aposlte Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit of the Living God, such that what is penned by his hand is the Word of God, and not men, no sir, I will not say such things concerning an apostle of Christ or a prophet for that matter. But you are neither an apostle nor a prophet.
Where is the false Gospel they preach? Are they preaching a Gospel of works? Are they denying the Son? How are they perverting justification by faith alone? I never heard a Gospel of works there. Perhaps I missed it. I never heard a denial of Jesus as the Son of God, Messiah, or God come in the flesh. I have never heard a denial of the Holy Trinity, or a denial of Scriptures being the Word of God.
But I did hear false teaching. And their focus is wrong. And there is a false spirit there. There is a spirit at work in them, but it is not the Spirit of God.
I am not convinced brother that I have slandered you. I have disagreed with your rhetoric. I am usually in the habit of saying that such a thing is how it seems to me. I did not do that in my reply to you, and for that I am sorry. My reply then came accross as an absolute statement, and it was not meant that way.
You can dismiss my exhortation to you to exhibit more gentleness with those you find in the movement. You may think your blast of the leaders is righteous indignation, but it will not be percieved by the "sheep" as such. Did you not read my above reply...how they live in fear of even speaking against these leaders? How will you lead them out...by your above rhetoric?
I think there is a place for strong words, but they must be seasoned with mercy and gentleness and understanding. This is what I am trying to communicate in this thread.
Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the \"ordination\".
I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.
been there, done that, except it was more of a nodding motion (vs the side to side thing), I was in my 20s, had hair to my waist, and played in a heavy metal band.Been there, done that (well, not exactly that). Thank God for Reformation...
In this case, it appears to have led to repentance. The Bible certainly contains examples of false teachers and professors of false religions being mocked. Elijah had strong words for the prophets of Baal.18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
20Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
24Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."
O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped about the altar which was made. 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is musing, or he is gone aside, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lances, till the blood gushed out upon them. 29 And it was so, when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening oblation; but there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
Actually, the lady in the video is an alum of a Baptist seminary (Canada???). She and her husband are quite popular in this circuit.The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord.
Their bio includes the following:For almost three decades, Wesley and Stacey have given themselves in service to the Body of Christ in a variety of capacities, including church planting, pastoring for over 20 years, prophetic ministry and preaching in many different denominations around the world. They have started an organization called Be A Hero, whose purpose is to promote the cause of children at risk and alleviate the suffering of the poor ( Be A Hero ). They founded and convene the Candian Prophetic Council, are on the Board of "The Call Nashville" and partner together with many ministries to see the kingdom of God advanced on the earth.
Revival Now Ministries’ inspiration and values are built upon the Christian belief of the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ. Based on the testament of the Bible we believe that all human life has value, and that the two highest moral imperatives are 1) to love God; and 2) to love your neighbour as yourself, as taught by Jesus in His famous illustration of the "good Samaritan". (Luke 10:25-37).
In her "Ecstatic Prophecy - Teaching CD" Stacey "takes you on a journey of how ecstatic prophecy has been poured out on us."Wesley and Stacey Campbell are founders of RevivalNOW! Ministries and ‘Praying The Bible International,’ and a mercy organization for children at risk called ’Be A Hero’ (Be A Hero). They are producers of the "Praying the Bible" CDs and co-authors of several Praying the Bible books.
As well as being involved in the current prayer movement, Stacey and Wesley work in coalition with 'Hope for the Nations' and other mercy organizations focused on children at risk. Wesley is co-author of the book Be A Hero – The Battle for Mercy and Social Justice. Stacey was ordained by Dr. Bill Hammond, and is the founder and facilitator of the Canadian Prophetic Council.
Wesley and Stacey are faculty members of Wagner Leadership Institute and are very gifted teachers. Their passion to change the plight of widows and orphans world-wide will touch and inspire you, and their teachings on Praying the Bible will lead you into a greater fulfillment of the first commandment – to love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. Their history as missionaries, church planters, pastors and ministry in the wider Body of Christ gives their teaching a depth and authority that can only come from personal experience.
The Campbells live with their five children in Kelowna, B.C., Canada, and are an integral part of the Apostolic Team of Kelowna Christian Center, teaching at various schools and conferences. As conference speakers, they have ministered in over 45 nations, laboring to see revival and social justice transform the world.
Most disturbing to me, however, is the way in which her work also targets young children. Mrs. Campbell is a speaker, author, producer of CDs to teach children how to "grow up prophetic" in her "Growing Up Prophetic." For only $18.95 (USD) you can have a 3 CD set. Stacey "delights children as she recalls her experiences."For years Stacey Campbell has prophesied worldwide to many people, leaders, and churches. In this single CD Audio teaching, Stacey speaks about what ecstatic prophecy is, and takes you on a journey of how ecstatic prophecy has been demonstrated all throughout history.
She shares some intensely personal stories of walking out the different ways ecstatic prophecy has been both accepted and rejected by the Christian community, and how it all has changed her. Stacey’s greatest desire is that we would all prophesy, no matter how God has created for us to uniquely demonstrate that.
OK, so we know that she does this for a living (ministry), preaches around the world, has a full-feature internet site with lots of resources, and has authored books and teaching programs. Specifically, she teaches young children how to "grow up prophetic," i.e., listen to the promptings of the Spirit within you and share those inspired prophecies with the body of Christ.Stacey Campbell has worked with children for many years teaching them to hear God's voice and move in the prophetic. She delighted the children with many funny stories of her own experiences and those of her children including the feature story "There's A Mouse in My Pants".
Older children and teens will also enjoy what Stacey has to say.
These sessions were part of the "Kid in Ministry" prophetic conference.
This is something right out of the twlight zone. I agree with you brother, we should pray for her deliverance. Read the Deut. 13:1-5 & 18:18 and see what Moses had to say about these profits. When I hear a woman referred to as a prophetess I think of Waunita Bynum and her husband that claimed to be an apostle. They were not married a year and already were beating on each other. These people should have been stoned or cained.Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the \"ordination\".
I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.
I can definitely testify to what you're saying, brother, since I was one of 'em! If you had told me this time last summer, I'd be a Reformed Baptist, I'd slapped some sense into you and pray you'd quit drinking! As I began to read the Bible and see where my church was going of course, I soon realised that I was really in need of good instruction.With the 'awakening' that seems to be happening in many communities now - where folks are abandoning 'churchianity' and the mechanations of televangelists and searching for biblical truth, we might be seeing the beginnings of it dying out.
It is essentially is the Christian version of the fortune teller. Notice how it is always generic things that they call out - things that you don't need a doctor to know that someone suffers from...I have always hoped that these people are themselves deceived and are not just taking advantage of people to make a quick buck. It is like the Christian version of going to a fortune teller.