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Discussion in 'Cults & World Religions' started by Theogenes, Jul 18, 2008.
Thank you my brother. May the Lord Jesus give you His grace and peace in abundance.
While I have compassion for all the sheeple caught up in the movement, I do sometimes pray for a tornado to hit the headquarters of false teachers and for their true character to be made manifest to everyone in a manner beyond dispute. Of course, 2 Tim. 4:3 and experience tells me that some people will STILL follow them regardless, but I have no lost love for false teachers.
you may not like the tone, but take this into consideration:
At the end of Isaiah 66, you and every other believer in existence will stand and look over the bodies of those who rebelled against God - false teachers, liars, thieves, crooks, etc.... and we will PRAISE GOD because they are damned and receiving justice from Him for eternity. They will be an ABOMINATION to all believers in similar fashion as they are to God.
One day, God's patience with them will cease and the fire will come. Honestly, I pray that day is soon.
In fact, I sometimes pray persecution would come to America for the church. Watch the false teachers run like roaches with the light turned on.....
This thread has really caused me to be somewhat disillusioned about the Reformed movement.
Well, maybe not so much so. What a warm-hearted Christian John Calvin was...
And shall see the dead bodies of men. He does not mean that this slaughter shall take place in the assembly of believers; for this would greatly diminish the happiness of the Church, in which God displays all testimonies of joy and gladness. But as he formerly spoke of the perpetual glory by which he shall dignify his people, so he now threatens the punishment which he shall inflict on the reprobate, that the godly may be more careful to keep themselves in the fear of God.
And their fire shall not be extinguished. When he says that they shall be tormented by "fire," this mode of expression, as I have formerly remarked, 16 is metaphorical. And this is clearly evident from the succeeding clause; for worms will not be formed out of the earth to gnaw the hearts of unbelievers. The plain meaning, therefore, is, that the wicked shall have a bad conscience as an executioner, to torment them without end, and that torment awaits them greater than all other torments; and finally, that they shall tremble and be agitated in a dreadful and shocking manner, as if a worm were gnawing the heart of a man, or a fire were consuming it, and yet thus consumed, he did not die.
And they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. Because the wicked are now held in the highest honor, and from their lofty position look down with contempt on good men, the Prophet threatens a shocking change; for, along with unutterable torments, they shall also endure the deepest disgrace; as it is just and right that they who despised and reproached the glory of God shall be loaded with every reproach, and shall be the objects of abhorrence to angels and to the whole world.
No one is going to fault you for having a gentle spirit and striving to act in a manner worthy of the Gospel. But there is a place for righteous indignation. There is Biblical precedent for imprecatory praying and it's place in our own praying. They shouldn't be the norm and gentleness should be our defining characteristic but there is a time for anger.
This is not inconsistent with the reformers, quite the opposite. It is apparently going against a misconception you have and your passion to make tolerance a virtue.
What is your opinion of these scriptures?
Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Psalm 109:1 Be not silent, O God of my praise!
2 For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me,
speaking against me with lying tongues.
3 They encircle me with words of hate,
and attack me without cause.
4 In return for my love they accuse me,
but I give myself to prayer.
5 So they reward me evil for good,
and hatred for my love.
6 Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty;
let his prayer be counted as sin!
8 May his days be few;
may another take his office!
9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow!
10 May his children wander about and beg,
seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!
11 May the creditor seize all that he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him,
nor any to pity his fatherless children!
13 May his posterity be cut off;
may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth!
16 For he did not remember to show kindness,
but pursued the poor and needy
and the brokenhearted, to put them to death.
17 He loved to curse; let curses come upon him!
He did not delight in blessing; may it be far from him!
18 He clothed himself with cursing as his coat;
may it soak into his body like water,
like oil into his bones!
19 May it be like a garment that he wraps around him,
like a belt that he puts on every day!
20 May this be the reward of my accusers from the Lord,
of those who speak evil against my life!
Psalm 139:19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
20 They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain!
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22 I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.
Thanks for your reply. Suffice it for now to say that I do believe there is a righteous anger, indignation, and loathing that we see not only in the Scripture you quoted, but in the Psalms and elsewhere, but I do not possess it as I think I ought. Nor do I believe I have a right heart for imprecatory praying, or the wisdom to know how to do so. Please accept this from one who fears God and right now seeks to join Him in praying for the salvation of all men. I want to plead with the unregenerate, not as one who in angry with them, but like Spurgeon once said with, "Genuine love to God and fervent love to man make up the great qualification for a pleader."
But concerning tolerance I believe it is a virtue if it is the proper tolerance. If tolerance is not a virture, then is intolerance the virtue? Modern society, as I am sure you aware, has in the main redefined tolerance.
I suppose I would call tolerance a tool and it must be used with discernment. Tolerance today is taught as permissiveness and an acceptance of all opinions as equal. Tolerance is an attitude that is free of bias. I am not free of bias. Because I hold the Scriptures as the highest authority I am heavily biased to let Scripture define words and establish virtue. Because I believe that Jesus is Lord I am exclusive toward Christianity.
Interesting, because I recognize the image of God in every human (according to Gen. 9:6) I treat each person with respect as if they held a portion of divine dignity which they do. I receive much criticism from others who tell me, "You like everybody!" as if I am naive and simple to do so. I consider myself a peacemaker and I would rather not confront.
There are situations, however, where we are called to discernment and apply the principles of Scripture. There are times when we must proclaim the truth of scripture even if it offends. It you never offend anyone, then you are not engaging the culture properly and you are not proclaiming the Gospel as the apostles did it.
Thank you for your reply Geoff and thank you for your gentle humility.
To refamiliarize myself with it...
I think you have properly defined what tolerance has been, and should be, and what our society is trying to make it be. Josh McDowell wrote a book on the subject called "The New Tolerance" which if someone has interest, is a very good book on the subject and was very useful to me while completing my undergraduate degree at a secular university.
And I agree, if we are preaching Christ and Him crucified, if we are preaching the whole counsel of God, people will be offended and we must not let our human compassion for the souls of men tear us away from our fidelity to Christ and His truth.
This is just BAD (and very sad).
These false prophets violate the third commandment.
You must have missed the strong condemnation of Jesus toward the Pharisee's and Scribes in the gospels. Jesus was not afraid to call them what they were, white washed seplecurs. Blasphemy is a violation of the the third commandment and should be condemned.
A certain Simon Magus comes to mind. Also a certain imprecatory remark by an original gangsta, I mean an Apostle; "Your money perish with you!"
been there, done that, except it was more of a nodding motion (vs the side to side thing), I was in my 20s, had hair to my waist, and played in a heavy metal band.
and yes, Thank God for the Reformation
I didn't watch the whole video as I find it disturbing. Their practices as exhibited in the portion of the video I watched do not appear to conform to biblical worship or biblical church order. Though they call upon the name of Jesus, it does not appear to be the same Jesus or the same gospel that we find in Scripture.
I think prayer for the people, who are deluded by these false teachers, is needed. Also, we should be in prayer that the name of Jesus would be proclaimed boldly and rightly and that people who blaspheme his name would be silenced.
We should always be cautious in our approach to those whose doctrine differs from our own in secondary ways not essential to the gospel. But we should be righteously indignant to those who are plainly preaching a false gospel, which is the category that many in the "health and wealth" movement fall in to.
Jesus never avoided rebuking false teachers. Others have mentioned in this thread, Jesus' anger in the temple when the place of worship was misused. Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer for desiring to pay the disciples for the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In this case, it appears to have led to repentance. The Bible certainly contains examples of false teachers and professors of false religions being mocked. Elijah had strong words for the prophets of Baal.
Actually, the lady in the video is an alum of a Baptist seminary (Canada???). She and her husband are quite popular in this circuit.
This is what her web site says http://www.revivalnow.com/about.html:
Their bio includes the following:
In her "Ecstatic Prophecy - Teaching CD" Stacey "takes you on a journey of how ecstatic prophecy has been poured out on us."
Most disturbing to me, however, is the way in which her work also targets young children. Mrs. Campbell is a speaker, author, producer of CDs to teach children how to "grow up prophetic" in her "Growing Up Prophetic." For only $18.95 (USD) you can have a 3 CD set. Stacey "delights children as she recalls her experiences."
OK, so we know that she does this for a living (ministry), preaches around the world, has a full-feature internet site with lots of resources, and has authored books and teaching programs. Specifically, she teaches young children how to "grow up prophetic," i.e., listen to the promptings of the Spirit within you and share those inspired prophecies with the body of Christ.
She may be a number of things. However, with all due respect to our brethren sensitive about calling error error, my characterization of "the lady in the video" would not be that she "is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord," at least not in the sense of mititgating the responsibility for her actions. By her own admission, she is an international "leader" in this movement. And, while she and her husband do a number of evidently very good and worthy things (e.g., Be a Hero project for children at risk), her primary ministry is promulgating her approach to prophecy. Yes Wayne Grudem is also into the continuation of prophecy, but not like THIS! As one who claims to have come out of a seminary, who preaches around the world, and who publishes materials to teach others (including CHILDREN!!!) to follow her example, I think that this kicks her up on the responsibility scale just a little bit, don't you think?
Oh, and by the way, my background is not in the Reformed camp, I continue to be in good standing as an ordained Baptist minister (formerly part of the liberal ABCUSA), graduated from a fairly liberal "evangelical seminary" (Fuller), and have always been part of the tolerant broadly evangelical wing of the church. Many of my friends are in the charismatic movement, and I love Wayne Grudem's SysTheo. So the accusation alleging that criticism is only coming from "mean spirited" truly Reformed culture probably would not apply to me.
And, all I can say is YIKES!
Mark 9:42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
This is something right out of the twlight zone. I agree with you brother, we should pray for her deliverance. Read the Deut. 13:1-5 & 18:18 and see what Moses had to say about these profits. When I hear a woman referred to as a prophetess I think of Waunita Bynum and her husband that claimed to be an apostle. They were not married a year and already were beating on each other. These people should have been stoned or cained.
Yes, the tolerance of modern evangelicalism toward heresy. All on the count of three. Kumbaya, ...............
When I watched that Prophetic TV program I kept hearing the words, "Mecka-lecka-high-mecka-hiney-ho". I'm getting goose bumps.
Its sad to see churches like this with so many in the congregation, while often times the numbers are few in churches where the truth is being preached. I used to go to a charismatic church (nothing at all like these video's though) and I understand the attraction of emotional experiences, but God graciously has recently brought me to a much better understanding of doctrine and truth.
My natural self wouldn't have initially left a 600 member church with emotionally aesthetic preaching and good music for a small, developing ARP church with much better teaching (don't get me wrong, the preaching is excellent here!). In His providence now I get much more lasting spiritual joy and truth in His word to carry me through my trials and tribulations and realize my call to humility, servant hood, and suffering with Christ.
We really do need to pray for people in these false doctrines. They are deceived and I believe God's providence is their only hope of finding truth.
I hate to say, but I grew up in that tradition (or at most its grandmother, in terms of relation). This kind of thing is nothing new sadly. At best, the experience of Daniel by the River Chebar is used to substantiate it but ultimately it is nothing more than Satanic deception...
I can definitely testify to what you're saying, brother, since I was one of 'em! If you had told me this time last summer, I'd be a Reformed Baptist, I'd slapped some sense into you and pray you'd quit drinking! As I began to read the Bible and see where my church was going of course, I soon realised that I was really in need of good instruction.
I am sure a lot of folks can relate to that.
I came out of something like this too but thank God for reformed theology.
I often wonder where these people get these notions in their head that they call God. Is is some sort of demonic entity that is leading them astray and in effect leading countless millions others astray? Or is it simply voices contrived from their own minds, sort of like schizophrenia?
I have always hoped that these people are themselves deceived and are not just taking advantage of people to make a quick buck. It is like the Christian version of going to a fortune teller.
It is essentially is the Christian version of the fortune teller. Notice how it is always generic things that they call out - things that you don't need a doctor to know that someone suffers from...
the land of gloom like thick darkness,
like deep shadow without any order,
where light is as thick darkness.
Once you watch the video and realize how ecstatic her idea of prophecy is, you get some notion of why she teaches this to little children. She wants us "all" to "prophesy."