Not a Good Time to Be a Postmil?

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Joshua

Administrator
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Yeah, cuz we should base our theology of truth on empiricism (which is, itself, subject to manifold interpretation). :rofl: :rolleyes:
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
The darker the backdrop, the greater God's glory. And all the more reason to ask for outpouring of the Spirit.

There was Ninevah, then there was Jonah.

England was once like America. Then came George Whitefield.

God is one to deliver tremendous blessings of good in the midst of terrible evils.
 

W.C. Dean

Puritan Board Sophomore
If my version of postmillennialism taught that each year must be better than the last, then 2020 would be troubling. I am not sure any variety of postmillenarians believe that though.

If we're all still around in 10 years, this will be a bad year for dispensationalism
 

jwithnell

Moderator
Staff member
There was a brand of postmillennialism that fed into the social gospel of the 19th century that encouraged the continuous betterment of man and his circumstances to bring about a golden age. World War 1 ended that notion.
 

retroGRAD3

Puritan Board Sophomore
There was a brand of postmillennialism that fed into the social gospel of the 19th century that encouraged the continuous betterment of man and his circumstances to bring about a golden age. World War 1 ended that notion.
I was just listening to R Scott Clark yesterday about this very event and type of post mil.
 

BRK

Puritan Board Freshman
If we're all still around in 10 years, this will be a bad year for dispensationalism

I wonder what will spell the end of dispensationalism. The strongest claims in its favor, at least in my experience, all concern the modern state of Israel. Evidence includes the establishment of national Israel in 1948, claims of miraculous deliverance in war with the surrounding nations (I don't know how much of this is embellished), and, most recently, the peace accord between Israel, Bahrain, and the UAE. Although I am presently persuaded by the amillennial view, I come from a strongly dispensational background and hear repeatedly how these events, among others, prove that Israel is "God's prophetic time clock" and that we're getting close to the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. While superficially this may be an attractive position, I don't think it holds up on Scriptural grounds. Yet, I wonder what it will take for this view to begin passing away?
 

W.C. Dean

Puritan Board Sophomore
I wonder what will spell the end of dispensationalism. The strongest claims in its favor, at least in my experience, all concern the modern state of Israel. Evidence includes the establishment of national Israel in 1948, claims of miraculous deliverance in war with the surrounding nations (I don't know how much of this is embellished), and, most recently, the peace accord between Israel, Bahrain, and the UAE. Although I am presently persuaded by the amillennial view, I come from a strongly dispensational background and hear repeatedly how these events, among others, prove that Israel is "God's prophetic time clock" and that we're getting close to the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. While superficially this may be an attractive position, I don't think it holds up on Scriptural grounds. Yet, I wonder what it will take for this view to begin passing away?
I think it will hold out till the millennium, or the return of our King. Everyone I know who espouses it connects everything to political Israel. Unfortunately, if nothing crazy happens after people's timelines run out, some may see their faith shaken.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Pre DTS dispensationalism actually didn't hold to "end times speculation," as it saw all prophecies already fulfilled except those related to the coming of the Lord.
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Pre DTS dispensationalism actually didn't hold to "end times speculation," as it saw all prophecies already fulfilled except those related to the coming of the Lord.

As a premil, hate to say, this isn't correct. Many of them were historicists. And historicism, especially in the past, has had a problem with date-setting. (For example, Jeremiah Burroughs dabbled with that before backing away from it later.) But I think this would have been more of an issue in the 17th and 18th Centuries than it would have been in the 19th, where futuristic views became more common.
 

Reformed Covenanter

Cancelled Commissioner
As a premil, hate to say, this isn't correct. Many of them were historicists. And historicism, especially in the past, has had a problem with date-setting. (For example, Jeremiah Burroughs dabbled with that before backing away from it later.) But I think this would have been more of an issue in the 17th and 18th Centuries than it would have been in the 19th, where futuristic views became more common.

I may be missing something here, but surely @BayouHuguenot is referring to the Dispensationalists, not to historical premillennialists that were about in the 17th-century?
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
I may be missing something here, but surely @BayouHuguenot is referring to the Dispensationalists, not to historical premillennialists that were about in the 17th-century?

I took him to be referring to "historic" or "covenant" premils. If he is referring to dispensationaism before DTS, I'm not sure that would be correct either. But it may be accurate that prophetic speculation of the sensationalistic Lindsey type with which we're more familiar may not have started until WWI, and then WWII (i.e. wondering if Mussolini was the Antichrist) and the establishment of modern Israel, etc. Maybe what has been termed "Niagara premillennialism" wasn't so concerned with having the Bible in one hand and the paper in the other and was more concerned with liberalism in the denominations.

Plus, the idea that all prophecies are fulfilled except those pertaining to the return of the Lord is probably more compatible with modern amillennialism as well as modern preterism than it is with the older premil and is obviously incompatible with any era of dispensationalism. It seems to me that practically the whole foundation of Zionism (which some older premils as well as postmils affirmed) is that many of the OT prophecies pertaining to ethnic/national Israel are unfulfilled.
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Any resources on the historical evolution of dispensationalism?

Blaising and Bock's "Progressive Dispensationalism" goes into this somewhat, with the identification of three stages of development--Classic, Revised (or normative), and Progressive. But I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for. Maybe you're looking more for the history of views such as Russia's role in the "end times?"
 

JM

Puritan Board Doctor
When The Man Comes Around by Doug Wilson arrived this morning! The more things seem out of whack the more I trust in God's promises. The gates of hell and all, they won't prevail, and (I be your pardon) God never promised you a rose garden.
 

iainduguid

Puritan Board Sophomore
I took him to be referring to "historic" or "covenant" premils. If he is referring to dispensationaism before DTS, I'm not sure that would be correct either. But it may be accurate that prophetic speculation of the sensationalistic Lindsey type with which we're more familiar may not have started until WWI, and then WWII (i.e. wondering if Mussolini was the Antichrist) and the establishment of modern Israel, etc. Maybe what has been termed "Niagara premillennialism" wasn't so concerned with having the Bible in one hand and the paper in the other and was more concerned with liberalism in the denominations.

Plus, the idea that all prophecies are fulfilled except those pertaining to the return of the Lord is probably more compatible with modern amillennialism as well as modern preterism than it is with the older premil and is obviously incompatible with any era of dispensationalism. It seems to me that practically the whole foundation of Zionism (which some older premils as well as postmils affirmed) is that many of the OT prophecies pertaining to ethnic/national Israel are unfulfilled.
Not necessarily to do with dispensationalism, but there is a long history of identifying Gog in Ezekiel 38-39 with whoever is the current threatening world power, from Ambrose in the 4th Century onward. Goths, Mongols, the Pope, Turks, and Russians have all featured, among many others. Lindsey type prophetic speculation has a long (though not distinguished) history.
 

bookslover

Puritan Board Doctor
When The Man Comes Around by Doug Wilson arrived this morning! The more things seem out of whack the more I trust in God's promises. The gates of hell and all, they won't prevail, and (I be your pardon) God never promised you a rose garden.

If you must read Doug Wilson, read him carefully and discerningly.
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
...then came Nahum. ;)

100 years later.

Granted, some don't think the repentance lasted all that long. Yet still, the Lord did the unthinkable for that time--sent a man to preach a message of destruction to an uncovenanted people with no call to repentance, they repent, and God spares them.

Jonah has the opposite problem of us.

Despite the greatness of God we expect little, and get little.

But Jonah knew that God was so good He may actually cause them to repent, and ran away because his expectations were so great.
 

arapahoepark

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
When The Man Comes Around by Doug Wilson arrived this morning! The more things seem out of whack the more I trust in God's promises. The gates of hell and all, they won't prevail, and (I be your pardon) God never promised you a rose garden.
I've perused through his commentary. Its pretty elementary. I like others' better like Chilton even if he is in his own little world on some of the exegesis.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I've perused through his commentary. Its pretty elementary. I like others' better like Chilton even if he is in his own little world on some of the exegesis.

Agreed. Wilson isn't an exegete and while Chilton went loony at the end of his life, exegetes like Wenham at least praised his commentary.
 
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