Not Forgiven Now

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OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
What a blessing it is to know that I am not forgiven at the time I confess my sins, but instead I was forgiven when Christ died on the cross. I am able to come boldly before my Father's throne and tell Him how exceedingly wonderful He is. How I can never repay Him for His mercies and grace. How I love to sing His praises and glorify Him. To pray that He fulfill His promise of teaching me about His holiness and fill me with His love for Him that I may truly hallow His name which will change my nature. How wonderful it is to be free of guilt and stand fully justified before His throne when I ask that my will be forgotten so that I might have His will as my own and thus His kingdom come about. And still before confession crosses my lips, I am able to acknowledge that He is my earthly, mental, and spiritual Provider. To peacefully know that He is my Healer and Comforter. To be able to ask freely from Him all that I need, is to dip from a fountain that never runs dry. All this I can do before I confess my sins, because I was forgiven 2000 years ago. But the grace continues. He out of sincere love for me and a need for His own glory allows me to confess my sins and gives me the heart to repent and turn from my evil ways. He graciously places in my heart His love that I might give my all to Him and may forgive others as He forgives me and love them and esteem them above myself. This He does for His name sake. For His glory, He does this for us all. And one day soon we will perfectly glorify and enjoy Him forever all because we were forgiven not now but 2000 years ago.
 

VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
You might be interested to read some Puritan comments on the then / now aspect of forgiveness that I posted elsewhere recently.

1 John 1:8-2:1

Thomas Watson, The Lord's Prayer:

(9) When God pardons a sinner, he forgives all sins. ‘I will pardon all their iniquities.’ Jer 33: 8. ‘Having forgiven you all trespasses.’ Col 2: 13. The mercy-seat, which was a type of forgiveness, covered the whole ark, to show that God covers all our transgressions. He does not leave one sin upon the score; he does not take his pen and for fourscore sins write down fifty, but blots out all sin. ‘Who forgiveth all shine iniquities.’ Psa 103: 3. When I say, God forgives all sins, I understand it of sins past, for sins to come are not forgiven till they are repented of. Indeed God has decreed to pardon them; and when he forgives one sin, he will in time forgive all; but sins future are not actually pardoned till they are repented of. It is absurd to think sin should be forgiven before it is committed.

If all sins past and to come are at once forgiven, then what need to pray for the pardon of sin? It is a vain thing to pray for the pardon of that which is already forgiven. The opinion that sins to come, as well as past, are forgiven, takes away and makes void Christ’s intercession. He is an advocate to intercede for daily sins. 1 John 2: 1. But if sin be forgiven before it be committed, what need is there of his daily intercession? What need have I of an advocate, if sin be pardoned before it be committed? So that, though God forgives all sins past to a believer, yet sins to come are not forgiven till repentance be renewed.

Richard Sibbes, A Heavenly Conference in Works, Vol. 6, p. 449:

And this may comfort us in the consideration of all our sins; for sin past, and for corruption present, and sin that we may commit for time to come. For any thing that is past, if we confess our sins to God, he will forgive them. 'The blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sins,' 1 John i. 7, even from the present corruptions that attend on us. We have one that stands between God and us as a surety; and he will give us his Spirit to subdue our corruptions, and at length to make us like himself, a glorious spouse, Eph. v. 27. If we were perfect men, we need not a mediator; and this may teach us comfort, rather because we are sinners, and daily subject to offend God. We have one to make our peace for time to come; if we sin, we have an advocate, 1 John ii. 1. When Christ taught us to pray, 'Forgive us our daily trespasses,' he supposed we should run daily into sins, Mat. vi. 12. We have an advocate in heaven every day to stand between God and us, to answer God, to undertake that at length we should cease to offend him; and for the present, we are such as he shed his precious blood for; and he appeareth for us by virtue of his death, which is a marvellous comfort. We think if we commit sin there is no hope. But what needs a mediator, but to make peace between the parties disagreeing? If all things we made up between God and us, what need of an intercessor? But God knoweth well enough we run into daily sins, by reason of a spring of corruption in us, which is never idle. And therefore we may daily go to God in the name of our advocate, and desire God for Christ's sake to pardon, and desire Christ to intercede for us. Let us therefore shame ourselves.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Sarah, I would tread VERY carefully here. If, as Watson points out in the quotation given by Andrew above, your sins were in fact forgiven on the cross, why do you bother confessing them again now? What's the point of repentance, if your once and future sins are all in actuality already forgiven? If we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just WILL forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Why is that in the future tense, when John is speaking to believers? There is an "already" aspect indeed... but perhaps the way you should consider discussing sins' forgiveness is to say that atonement was made for you - and you may boldly go before the throne, being in Christ, to ask forgiveness with confidence.
 

Scott1

Puritanboard Commissioner
Yes, you truly can rejoice in the forgiveness of sin.

It has been helpful to understand that Christ both lived for us and died for us.

He lived a perfect, sinless life that fulfilled all God's commandments. He was absolutely perfect in His obedience.

He died on the cross as the only once-and-forever perfect sacrifice for all the sins I have ever (and will ever) commit.

So, in God's eyes (justification), the perfect obedience of Christ is imputed (counted) to me.

That is why a Christian does not have to fear God's final judgment, because of Christ, only because of Christ.

That is worth rejoicing about!!


Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Forgiveness is something Christ has done once and for all time. He doesn't die for your sins every time you ask for forgiveness. If that were the case, you would never be fully justified before God now you would have to hold to the doctrine of being justified at God's judgment seat which is completely against not only the reformed doctrine but also against Scripture. There is a very large difference between forgiveness of our sins (done by Christ) and confession of our sins (done by us to recognizes we are still sinners) and repentance (the turning away from our sins). I do not have to spend hours asking for forgiveness because that is already done. We must instead confess we are sinners and plead for Him to give us a heart of repentance....which is a turning away from our sins.

Hebrews 10:11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,"

17then he adds,

"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The Full Assurance of Faith
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Watson is sorely mistaken as Hebrews points out. His reference to 1 John 2:1 doesn't help his case. When we sin Christ is our advocate to the Father..."reminding" the Father the He died once and for all time (as Hebrew states) for our sins.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Sarah, here's a helpful distinction, and what the Scripture teaches:

God has decreed the Elect's justification in eternity past, He secured it at the cross, and it is actualized at conversion. So the Elect weren't forgiven at the cross (many before their own birth), otherwise how could they have been born as children of wrath?

The same way we were born children of wrath, but then they/we are converted given a heart of flesh and His forgiveness is applied to us at the time of conversion. We are FULLY justified at that time. We don't have to wait to be justified at God's judgment seat and neither do they.

The saint of the OT can look forward to the cross as we look back to the cross. If they could not do that, then either a) they went to hell or b) they went to heaven by their own good works. We know that neither of these things happened. Therefore, Hebrews 10 is correct in saying that Christ died once and for all time

Like I said, there is a very big difference between forgiveness, confession and repentance.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I never said that forgiveness was applied to us before our conversion, but after. Therefore, we can be born children of wrath and then after conversion have the forgiveness of sins applied to us. Otherwise you have to deny Hebrews "12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God".
 

Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
Since we are, indeed, confessional -- here's our confession on this:

"As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof; upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy." WCF XV.6
 

Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
Also, forgiveness isn't something that is applied, or imputed in the sense that righteousness is. When justified, we are imputed righteous; but forgiveness is something which is actually done, not something imputed to us (such does not make sense). We are not forgiven for things that haven't happened yet. On account of Christ's one-for-all sacrifice, on account of which we are justified and are so granted the privilege of forgiveness, we are able to be forgiven when we do sin and ask for it humbly.

This is what we confess.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I too want people to know I speak with respect. If you believe that you are not pardon until you confess your sins, then you have a number of problems. 1) you cannot remember every sin you commit and therefore you are not pardon. 2) if you have a car accident before you ask for forgiveness of your sins for that day you will go to hell because according to your thinking He has not forgiven you.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
I never said that forgiveness was applied to us before our conversion, but after. Therefore, we can be born children of wrath and then after conversion have the forgiveness of sins applied to us. Otherwise you have to deny Hebrews "12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God".

Why does the "all time single sacrifice for sin" have any bearing whatsoever on Watson being correct or incorrect? Who said anything about multiple sacrifices?
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I never said that forgiveness was applied to us before our conversion ...
? :um: ?
What a blessing it is to know that I am not forgiven at the time I confess my sins, but instead I was forgiven when Christ died on the cross.
I'm simply echoing Todd's post above. If I misunderstood ... my apologies.

Christ died 2000 years ago for my sins. Then I was born under wrath. Then I was converted. Then forgiveness was applied to all my sins. Now I stand fully justified before God's throne. God has now demanded that when I go to Him in prayer I confess my sins acknowledging I am a great sinner and repent (turn away from my sins) of my sins. But I was forgiven 2000 years ago...not when I confess my sins.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
I too want people to know I speak with respect. If you believe that you are not pardon until you confess your sins, then you have a number of problems. 1) you cannot remember every sin you commit and therefore you are not pardon. 2) if you have a car accident before you ask for forgiveness of your sins for that day you will go to hell because according to your thinking He has not forgiven you.

With all due respect, Sarah, I believe you're binding people to words they would never say and do not believe. Of course we are, being finite cannot recall to mind every sin that we ever commit - and that does not mean that we believe that if we forget one we're en route to hell.

Again, can you explain why we are told that if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just WILL forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness? John's words there are to believers. Christ's model prayer also includes petition for forgiveness of sins. This too was for believers. Why does Christ have us asking for forgiveness if it's pointless in your book?
 

Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
Also, not just a Westminster Doctrine:

For, in the first place, God preserves in those saints when they fall his imperishable seed from which they have been born again, lest it perish or be dislodged. Secondly, by his Word and Spirit he certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite heart, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; experience again the grace of a reconciled God; through faith adore his mercies; and from then on more eagerly work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

--Dort, V.article 7
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I never said that forgiveness was applied to us before our conversion, but after. Therefore, we can be born children of wrath and then after conversion have the forgiveness of sins applied to us. Otherwise you have to deny Hebrews "12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God".

Why does the "all time single sacrifice for sin" have any bearing whatsoever on Watson being correct or incorrect? Who said anything about multiple sacrifices?

Watson said, "When I say, God forgives all sins, I understand it of sins past, for sins to come are not forgiven till they are repented of." This goes against Hebrews saying that Christ died once and for all time. If we are only forgiven at the time of confession, the Christ might have died once but not for all time. When Christ died on the cross He stated, "It is finished"....at that time not when Sarah gets around to asking for forgiveness.
 

Ravens

Puritan Board Sophomore
It seems as if there are two different topics being covered in this thread:

1) When are we justified and/or forgiven? That is, does it happen at the cross, or upon faith?

2) Once we are justified and/or forgiven, upon faith (which is the Reformed view, I believe, contrary to the above), do we still to receive forgiveness for our daily sins? Since the Lord's Prayer seems to nail this one down, perhaps it would be better to say, what exactly is this "forgiveness" which the justified believer receives, and how does it affect his state?

This has apparently been a blind spot for me, because I've never given much thought to the issue. Providentially, though, I was actually thinking about this in bed this morning. That is, if the Reformed doctrine of justification is correct, and it is is a once-for-all declaration which involves both the imputation of Christ's righteousness and the forgiveness of our sins, then one of the positions in this thread would allow for a justified man that is yet unforgiven for various periods of time throughout the day, and perhaps longer periods of time throughout life, if he backslides.

The only solution I can think of at the moment is to place this post-justification "forgiveness" in the same category with other terms and things which illustrate the ebb-and-flow of our practical relationship with God, that is, chastisement, discipline, grieving the Spirit, experiencing the light of His countenance versus Him hiding His face from you, desertion, having the fellowship of the Spirit, etc.

Which is, I suppose, to remove the judicial aspect from the element of forgiveness. I am more than open to correction. I just find the two things difficult to reconcile, at least in a way that doesn't involve one in a host of double-talk and double-think.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Also, not just a Westminster Doctrine:

For, in the first place, God preserves in those saints when they fall his imperishable seed from which they have been born again, lest it perish or be dislodged. Secondly, by his Word and Spirit he certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite heart, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; experience again the grace of a reconciled God; through faith adore his mercies; and from then on more eagerly work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

--Dort, V.article 7

I can only use what you've given me with this quote, it sounds as though he is speaking of justification...our time of conversion. Working out one's salvation had to do with sanctification not justfication.
 

Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
Sarah, I think you're confusing the fact that Christ died once with some other notion that I can't figure out. Christ died once; and we continually seek application of this for mercy, confident that in Christ we will receive it because of that once and for all sacrifice. Read the sections from the confessions I posted; this is actually a confessional teaching to which you state you subscribe.
 

Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
I can only use what you've given me with this quote, it sounds as though he is speaking of justification...our time of conversion.

Nope; this is in the section on perseverance and is dealing with the saints as they fall into sins.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Christ died for the Elect's justification, but not for a guilty conscience brought upon by unbridled sin after their conversion. There's a purpose in the Spirit's perpetual work in the sanctification of the believer.

ABSOLUTELY! I totally agree. But justification is different from sanctification. Those are two different things. We are justified once. We are sanctified daily. We are to feel grief over our sins...deep grief because we have offended a holy God which will lead to confession and repentance, but we indeed were forgiven 2000 years ago once and for all time.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Sarah, I think you're confusing the fact that Christ died once with some other notion that I can't figure out. Christ died once; and we continually seek application of this for mercy, confident that in Christ we will receive it because of that once and for all sacrifice. Read the sections from the confessions I posted; this is actually a confessional teaching to which you state you subscribe.

"Christ died once; and we continually seek application of this for mercy," this is called confession and repentance which is done by us

we will receive it [forgiveness] because of that once and for all sacrifice" done 2000 years ago.

Sorry, guys, I have to go for now. :( I'll see what you have to say when I get back.
 

Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
justification is different from sanctification. Those are two different things. We are justified once. We are sanctified daily.

There is also a vast difference between justification and forgiveness. Also, again, we were not forgiven 2000 years ago in any strict sense of the word; I was still guilty, (i.e., not forgiven) of my sins 10 years ago, let alone 2000. The once and for all provision for my sins was accomplished and secured 2000 years ago.

Again -- this is what we confess.
"As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof; upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy." WCF XV.6
 

Contra_Mundum

Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Staff member
Seems like a confusing conversation to me.

The problem (to be charitable) seems to be imprecision in the use of terms.

If we insist that "my sins were all forgiven at the cross," then this is going to raise the very questions that have come out of the conversation.

Which is why we would prefer to use better terms, more precise terms, or else allow for all the appropriate qualifiers for the terms.

Jesus TOLD kingdom citizens (people who already KNOW the grace of forgiveness) nevertheless to ASK the Father for forgiveness. Mat 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

There is "fatherly" forgiveness, and the forgiveness of the judge or of law. The former takes place on the basis of the latter.

Now, I really can only say that my sins were "dealt with" at the cross, that is that God does not hold my sins against me as they are punished in Christ, and insofar as I am united to Christ.

Forgiveness of MY SINS is something I experience; it isn't an abstract thing apart from me, nor is it anything other than nebulous if there is no repentance on my part that plows a channel for it (as it were) from my direction. That it is God at work in me to turn to God in faith and repentance is no reason not to acknowledge it as my will in action also.

The forgiveness made possible at the cross is WAITING for me to experience through faith in Jesus. It is in the application of the sacrifice of Christ to me by the Judge that forgiveness arrives to me at first. And then, it keeps coming back to me refreshed as I experience it renewed in the Father's continual patience.

Original forgiveness and pardon is formally what we refer to as "justification." WSC Ans.33: "Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone."

Other Confessional statements:
11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.
11:5 God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified: and, although they can never fall from the state of justification; yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
 

Ravens

Puritan Board Sophomore
Rev. Buchanan,

Unless I am misunderstanding you, you are the first in this thread to introduce a distinction in the types of forgiveness.

You said:

There is "fatherly" forgiveness, and the forgiveness of the judge or of law. The former takes place on the basis of the latter.

Can you elaborate on this? Is this statement of mine (or what I was trying to get at) at least in the ballpark of what you meant by the above quote:
The only solution I can think of at the moment is to place this post-justification "forgiveness" in the same category with other terms and things which illustrate the ebb-and-flow of our practical relationship with God, that is, chastisement, discipline, grieving the Spirit, experiencing the light of His countenance versus Him hiding His face from you, desertion, having the fellowship of the Spirit, etc.

If there is an exact correspondence, or a 1:1 relationship between the forgiveness we receive at justification, and the forgiveness we seek for in the Lord's Prayer, for instance, then I don't see how that can be reconciled with a Reformed doctrine of justification.

Justification is a one-time event. It is both the imputation of Christ's righteousness, and the forgiveness and pardon of our sins. If the "forgiveness" and "pardon" is constantly being re-enacted, renewed, or, upon new sins, granted for the first time, then how can this not be a fluctuating, evolving, and even growing "justification"?

The only way I can reconcile them in my head is to place post-justification forgiveness in the category of Fatherly discipline and our subjective experience of and relationship to God, whereas the forgiveness of justification is judicial, final, and covers all sins, past, present, and future. If not, then justification, or at least one side of it, is not "complete" at the time of conversion.

What am I missing? I am most certainly not arguing, only desiring clarification from a mind that I respect, because my brain is experiencing some gridlock on the issue. I look forward to hearing your response.
 

PastorSBC

Puritan Board Freshman
Good questions JD, it seems to me like some are saying the same things just with different words perhaps.
 

Matthias

Puritan Board Junior
I myself would like to see more scripture references from both sides of the argument. Just my 2 cents
 

Matthias

Puritan Board Junior
There's nothing difficult about this, folks:

No one has said that Christ must die anew with each of our passing transgressions. In the OP it was stated at least twice that this person was forgiven when Christ died on the cross. This is simply not true. A person is actually forgiven at the point of their conversion and seeking of forgiveness. It was decreed in eternity, secured at the cross, but not actualized until said person's conversion. That's the point being made.

Could you explain this in more depth using scripture please? I find this topic interesting and would like to get a better understanding of both sides of it. Thanks
 

Wannabee

Obi Wan Kenobi
Bruce (correct me if I misunderstood) is attempting to show how the conversation is confusing because of a mixed understanding of terminology. As I read through this thread (first time just now) I was confused by the "dance" going on as well. Discussions regarding salvation and sanctification seem to be cross threading with each other and causing even greater confusion.
It is very possible that more of the confusion comes from different understandings of forgiveness. There is the "already" aspect of it, as well as the "ongoing" work of it.
Joshua, remember our conversation? I think Sarah probably thinks along the lines of what I proposed, that forgiveness is unconditional; whereas you, and others, proposed that forgiveness only follows confession. This, then, lead to a discussion of how we relate to one another different than God relates to us. Just as we couldn't really come to terms on that issue, I doubt this one will end with mutual agreement. There is a very real sense in which what she says makes sense, though I, too, would have chosen different terminology. If you step back and attempt to see her proposition in this light, perhaps it will become clearer. Where it's not, perhaps it would help to ask for and propose some definitions (and qualifiers in regard to salvation/sanctification). However, regardless of whether there is mutual agreement, may this discussion result in charitable respect for one another as we continue to strive to see Christ more clearly.
 
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