The staff at my church spent much of the day debating over the biblical emphasis on numeric growth in the church. One side argued that numeric growth is not necessary as long as there is evidence of spiritual growth, while the other said that the church cannot help but be victorious, and that a God-centered church cannot help but grow numerically. What are your thoughts?
Numerical Church Growth: Always Right?
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Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Spiritual growth is of the utmost importance I would think, but numeric growth is important as long as you dont soften the message being presented in scriptures.
blade:wr50:
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SoldierOfTheRock
Puritan Board Freshman
Numbers tell nothing.
At the church I go to the old pastor left and there was a small congregation, but people were learning, atleast I was. Then our new pastor came and many in the church that were there before are ready to leave because of the lack of spiritual growth, this may be due to the lack of real preaching. We have alot more members now, but there is no spiritual growth.
Our church has also taken an Arminian stand on theology which saddens me. And of course in this church anyone who believes in Refromed Theology is a heretic. There is no room for debate here because no one reads their bible. And if anyone does, and questions the pastor he simply calls it a grey area and says we will know once we get there and that we both may be wrong. I do not know how one can take that stance on doctrines such as predestination. This may be why we have so many members, we do not take a stand so no one is offended.
Our church is looking for members and decisions, not conversions.
So as our number grow we dilute the little spiritual strength we had.
So I must stress that numbers tell nothing of spiritual growth.
Atleast at the church I am currently attending, we are only growing in number and not in knowledge or spiritual measures.
At the church I go to the old pastor left and there was a small congregation, but people were learning, atleast I was. Then our new pastor came and many in the church that were there before are ready to leave because of the lack of spiritual growth, this may be due to the lack of real preaching. We have alot more members now, but there is no spiritual growth.
Our church has also taken an Arminian stand on theology which saddens me. And of course in this church anyone who believes in Refromed Theology is a heretic. There is no room for debate here because no one reads their bible. And if anyone does, and questions the pastor he simply calls it a grey area and says we will know once we get there and that we both may be wrong. I do not know how one can take that stance on doctrines such as predestination. This may be why we have so many members, we do not take a stand so no one is offended.
Our church is looking for members and decisions, not conversions.
So as our number grow we dilute the little spiritual strength we had.
So I must stress that numbers tell nothing of spiritual growth.
Atleast at the church I am currently attending, we are only growing in number and not in knowledge or spiritual measures.
I think pastors need to take more time to [i:08703b55cc]evangelize their own congregation[/i:08703b55cc]. Who are we preaching the gospel to on sunday mornings? The church! We are evangelizing the church. Whoever that might be...
Church's would grow alot more if people would actually stay for longer than a year. The church will grow itself if it is being nourished...
Rembrandt
Church's would grow alot more if people would actually stay for longer than a year. The church will grow itself if it is being nourished...
Rembrandt
Numbers can lie
In Edwards' analysis of revival, he pointed out several "marks" that were neither certain evidence of a true revival nor certain evidence of a lack of genuinness. I think the same is true of numerical growth. God may bless faithfulness with explosive growth, or he may test (strengthen) the endurance of a few to grow them in grace in a different way. Remember, do not despise the day of small things (Zech. 4:10). And, "Seekest thou great things for thyself? Seek them not" (Jer. 45:5).
The problem that I see with the "modern church growth movement" is that they have chosen a criteria for "success" that is numbers (and as a byproduct, $$$) paramount. They have borrowed techniques and programs from modern marketing theory and said, "Hey! Look what has been missing from the church for centuries." What they don't say, but what is surely implied, is "look what Jesus left out of his program." The preaching of the Word, as the principal means of grace, has been forgotten, or buried under a clutter of "worship activities" designed to be welcoming to the culture of convenience and 5 minute attention spans.
In Edwards' analysis of revival, he pointed out several "marks" that were neither certain evidence of a true revival nor certain evidence of a lack of genuinness. I think the same is true of numerical growth. God may bless faithfulness with explosive growth, or he may test (strengthen) the endurance of a few to grow them in grace in a different way. Remember, do not despise the day of small things (Zech. 4:10). And, "Seekest thou great things for thyself? Seek them not" (Jer. 45:5).
The problem that I see with the "modern church growth movement" is that they have chosen a criteria for "success" that is numbers (and as a byproduct, $$$) paramount. They have borrowed techniques and programs from modern marketing theory and said, "Hey! Look what has been missing from the church for centuries." What they don't say, but what is surely implied, is "look what Jesus left out of his program." The preaching of the Word, as the principal means of grace, has been forgotten, or buried under a clutter of "worship activities" designed to be welcoming to the culture of convenience and 5 minute attention spans.
SoldierOfTheRock
Puritan Board Freshman
Excellent Analysis Contra Mundum. I guess Jesus never went to seminary to learn how to convert sinners. Spurgeon once wrote a sermon entitled "Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats" Deffinately something the modern churches should read.
Good answers so far.
Jesus saw many more of His followers withdraw and leave Him than those that stayed to the end!
Numbers are important as long as the numbers indicate spiritual growth (saints being equipped and people being converted). But many focus on numbers and think automatically that [i:ce389a310c]church expansion[/i:ce389a310c] is the same thing as [i:ce389a310c]spiritual growth[/i:ce389a310c] and the two are not necessariyl related at all!
Some churches grow because they are marketed and man centered. Others grow because ears are tickled.
Those that really preach, apply, and live the truth that I know are all fairly small slow "growing" (numerically) churches. But the people in those churches are definitely growing and being equipped for the work of the ministry and the building up of the body.
I want Christ to build my church and add to it as He sees fit!
Phillip
Jesus saw many more of His followers withdraw and leave Him than those that stayed to the end!
Numbers are important as long as the numbers indicate spiritual growth (saints being equipped and people being converted). But many focus on numbers and think automatically that [i:ce389a310c]church expansion[/i:ce389a310c] is the same thing as [i:ce389a310c]spiritual growth[/i:ce389a310c] and the two are not necessariyl related at all!
Some churches grow because they are marketed and man centered. Others grow because ears are tickled.
Those that really preach, apply, and live the truth that I know are all fairly small slow "growing" (numerically) churches. But the people in those churches are definitely growing and being equipped for the work of the ministry and the building up of the body.
I want Christ to build my church and add to it as He sees fit!
Phillip
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