Objectively evil is good

[Hippo]

I was reading Herman Hoeksema's excellent "The Triple Knowledge", an exposition of the Heidelberg Catechism and in relation to the the first question Hoeksema states that "evil is only relatively an evil, while absolutely it is a good".

I find this approach very interesting as it really seems to reconcile the nature of God with his sovereignty, it reminds me a bit of:

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:20 (ESV)

Is this understanding orthodox?

 

[Leslie]

How can anyone read the scriptures and embrace the sovereignty of God and yet NOT believe this? Yet it's very difficult to wrap one's mind around this concept, particularly as regards such events as the Holocaust.

 

[KMK]

I was reading Herman Hoeksema's excellent "The Triple Knowledge", an exposition of the Heidelberg Catechism and in relation to the the first question Hoeksema states that "evil is only relatively an evil, while absolutely it is a good".

I find this approach very interesting as it really seems to reconcile the nature of God with his sovereignty, it reminds me a bit of:

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:20 (ESV)

Is this understanding orthodox?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I don't know exactly what Hoeksema is saying but I think the problem comes when we, as sinful humans, try to judge in and of themselves what is evil and what is good. We do not have that ability nor that authority. It 'appeared' that what happened to Joseph was evil and his brothers certainly meant to do evil but who are we to judge? It was God working good behind the scenes the whole time.

I guess that doesn't answer you question at all.

WCF Chapter 5:IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

The goodness of God manifests itself in the joining, bounding, ordering and governing of sin to His holy ends.

I don't know if you can go so far as to say that 'evil' is 'good'. You can say 'evil' is used by God to manifest His goodness.

 

[Poimen]

John Gerstner basically said the same thing: there is evil good and good good. For Gerstner the problem of evil really doesn't exist. So Hoeksema is in good company.

 

[KMK]

John Gerstner basically said the same thing: there is evil good and good good. For Gerstner the problem of evil really doesn't exist. So Hoeksema is in good company.

If evil doesn't exist, then why does the Bible have so much to say about it?

If one wants to say that 'good' describes evil then that is one thing. But it doesn't make sense to say that evil and good are the same thing. I can say, "Coffee is good." The word 'good' is describing coffee, but I am not saying coffee and good are the same things.

 

[Poimen]

Gerstner does not deny evil per se; it still exists. It is the problem of evil that is non-existent. For all evil is good (Romans 8:28) though it may appear to us to only have an negative effect.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

John Gerstner basically said the same thing: there is evil good and good good. For Gerstner the problem of evil really doesn't exist. So Hoeksema is in good company.

Amen Sir. Glad to know people still read Dr. Gerstner, one of the last orthodox Professors at PTS.

 

[D. Paul]

I listen to so much audio I can't remember who I heard state it this way (in essence, not verbatim):

God created and all things were "good". There is no concept of "evil" without there first being the reality of good. Good is the reality; anything short of good or contrary to good is then "evil". This is also how it can be said that God is not the creator of evil. (I sure hope I didn't botch the thing)

 

[DMcFadden]

John Gerstner basically said the same thing: there is evil good and good good. For Gerstner the problem of evil really doesn't exist. So Hoeksema is in good company.

Amen Sir. Glad to know people still read Dr. Gerstner, one of the last orthodox Professors at PTS.

You mean that they won't be giving R.C. Sproul the alum of the year award any time soon?

 

[Grymir]

To use an analogy, it's like a thermometer. It measure's heat, we use cold as a relative term (ie, it's not cold, only an absence of heat), only 'heat' exists. Good exists, evil is a lack of Good. Crude analogy, but it helps explain the OP statement in a simple way that people can grasp easier.

Dr. Gerstner is great reading!!

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

John Gerstner basically said the same thing: there is evil good and good good. For Gerstner the problem of evil really doesn't exist. So Hoeksema is in good company.

Amen Sir. Glad to know people still read Dr. Gerstner, one of the last orthodox Professors at PTS.

You mean that they won't be giving R.C. Sproul the alum of the year award any time soon?

To use one of R.C.'s favorite words, he is "anathema" at PTS...

 

[Galatians220]

I was reading Herman Hoeksema's excellent "The Triple Knowledge", an exposition of the Heidelberg Catechism and in relation to the the first question Hoeksema states that "evil is only relatively an evil, while absolutely it is a good".

I find this approach very interesting as it really seems to reconcile the nature of God with his sovereignty, it reminds me a bit of:

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:20 (ESV)

Is this understanding orthodox?

Don't know the precise or likely idiosyncratically nuanced definition of the term "orthodox" here. I'm struggling with this Board and I thank you all for merely tolerating me... But if you're interested in Hoeksema and what he thought, a more detailed explanation of his theology of good and evil is in his "Behold He Cometh: an Exposition of the Book of Revelation," (RFPA, 2nd ed., 2000), which we bought around the time this second edition was published and which I'm going through as I'm reading the above responses. The book runs close to 800 pp., including its very inclusive index, and so I'm not going to do a "brief summary" here; suffice it to say that it's well worth obtaining and reading. As far as I know, it's still in print.

Another good Hoeksema reference, helpful to really get a "read" on the man, his doctrine and theology, is "Therefore Have I Spoken," a beautiful biography written by his daughter-in-law, Gertrude Hoeksema. We obtained it quite fortunately as a Grand Rapids bookstore was selling off its stock. It's become a difficult book to get hold of; it was also published by RFPA, in 1969.

The KJB, which Hoeksema used once he came here and preached in English, although, of course, he started in Dutch, translates Gen. 50:20 as "But as for you, ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." The 1599 Geneva renders the same verse, "When ye thought evil against me, God disposed it to good, that he might bring to pass as it is this day, and save much people alive."

Margaret

 

[Pergamum]

Evil is not good; it is evil.

God can use evil for God and use it for His good, but this does not make evil good.

 

[Hippo]

Evil is not good; it is evil.

God can use evil for God and use it for His good, but this does not make evil good.

The only reason that there is evil is in order that it may glorify God, Evil is part of God's plan and God is objectively incapable of doing anything but good.

 

[Pergamum]

I repeat what I said above. God is not the cause of sin. He uses sin, but never condones it but judges it.

To say that evil is good is to lie and blaspheme God and to make God a big hypocrite when God acts like He is mad at sin, when all along he is happy for this good thing.



To say that God works all things for good is one thing; to say that all things are good in themselves is quite another.

Anyone who contradicts this is buying into the devil's lies.



God uses evil even for his own glory. This is different than saying that evil is good.

Now that God has allowed evil to be let loose into the world he can shape it, permit it or channel it for good purposes...but again, this is different than saying that evil is good, which is an absolutely stupid statement.

God has decreeed for His own glory to allow the Fall and uses its effects greater to glorify Himself, but again this is different than saying that black is white and white is black. If evil is good, and we should only do good, let's all sin that grace may abound and God may get the more glory. Evil is not good, even though God uses all things for his own glory.


The sementics used by Hippo and others needs to be sharpened so as to defend God's absolute holiness. In the Qur'an, Allah might be the sovereign God who can deceive, but our God absolute pure and holy.

 

[Hippo]

The punishment of evil glorifies God, evil is not an embarrasment or merely something that was "let loose". In glory we will see evil in its objective context as part of God's plan.

I understand Pergamums concerns, I am not in the least arguing that evil is not relatively an evil. However on his anlaysis you do have a god of the Qur'an who can use something that is objectively evil for his own purposes, we have a God of absolute purity and holiness who is incapable of acting against this holy nature.

 

[KenPierce]

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.

Be very, very careful. The hidden things belong to God.

God is not the author of sin.

 

[DMcFadden]

One of the blessings of coming to a confessional baptist position has been re-discovering the riches of my own heritage in the 1689 LBCF. My polity class in seminary "referenced" the confession but only in an historical and antiquarian way. Only in recent years has it been a real part of the expression of my faith. On 3:1, the words aptly state what I believe about God's sovereignty taking into account the presence of evil. [I have bolded the modifications of the WCF.]

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and Holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

BTW, if you have not ordered it yet, the Doxa Westminster Confession Commentary Collection package is just amazing for study as you can see from the demo on another thread (and VERY cheap). I pre-ordered on 12/29 for $5.95 from Doxa. It is available for $9.95 now with 8 resources!

 

[john]

God is the first cause of all things, Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Nothing is permitted or allowed by God, any decision a man makes he makes because God has determined it. God has determined all the actions, words and thoughts of His creatures before they came into existence, because He is Sovereign. To say otherwise is unscriptural. He sustains all things by His Powerful Word, Heb 1:3.

Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

The idea that Adam was permitted or allowed to cause the death of God is false because scripture says it was God that bound man over to disobedience, (Rom 11:32.) Adam was compelled by God to take the fruit, anything other explanation is evil. (Evil being anything opposing God's word.
God could only commit an evil act if He had created a law forbidding Himself from such an act. Since He is not under the law then it is impossible for Him to sin or commit evil regardless of our sensiblities.

Hippo, nice to meet you.

However on his anlaysis you do have a god of the Qur'an who can use something that is objectively evil for his own purposes, we have a God of absolute purity and holiness who is incapable of acting against this holy nature.

I don't understand this statement.

Do you mean God cannot act against His Nature, so to speak, therefore He cannot do what you think of as evil?

God is not the author of sin.

God is the Author of sin.... God has bound all men over to disobedience Rom 11:32,
Jews and Gentiles alike. With respect, KenPierce, you are wrong. Back up what you say with scripture please.

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and Holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin...

And the scripture please McFadderator?

Do you disagree with this :

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

Calvinism?

john.

 

[KenPierce]

John,

James 1:13-14.

Why are we to abhor what is evil, and cling to what is good, if God is some sort of divine Yin-Yang?

Both the WCF and the 1689 LBC agree on this point, and agree with Scripture, contra Hoeksema and Gordon Clark.

God decreed to allow the Fall, no question about that. Somehow, he did it while remaining free from evil himself. We can't say that he coerced Adam into doing what he had commanded Adam not to do --does that not go against James?

But, he did create knowing it would happen, and he also could have created a universe in which it did not happen --see Augustine.

Part of this is our philosophical construction of evil as a "thing" that can be "created," some sort of mythic ideal stuff. What is evil? It is simply disobedience to God. God created a universe with the potential of disobedience.

With all due respect, you are taking Romans 11:32 grossly out of context: ESV Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
.

If we read the rest of the verse the way you would have us read it, it would argue for the salvation of all men, would it not? But that is simply not what Paul is arguing. He is arguing, rather that God allows men to go and do what men, totally depraved, will do. And, he does that not by forcing them to do it. They do it by nature. And, he allows it to happen, why? So that he can have mercy on those whom he desires to have mercy: the "all" in view here.

 

[Mushroom]

One question, perhaps not relavent:

Would it have been sin for God to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Why or why not?

 

[KenPierce]

Brad, brother, that is one of those undue speculations Calvin said God spent eternity creating Hell for. We might ask rather would it be right for God to lie.

 

[DMcFadden]

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and Holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin...

And the scripture please McFadderator?

I'm sorry. My post announced that it was derived from 3.1 of the 1689 LBCF. The Scriptures listed for 3.1 are: Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18; Jas. 1:13, 17; 1John 1:5; Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33. Specifically on the issue of God and evil, the relevant passages were James 1:13, 17 and 1 John 1:5.

Some theologians go further in their discussions of evil (cf. Hoeksema). Personally, I do not see that as the teaching of the 1689 LBCF.

 

[Hippo]

Hippo, nice to meet you.

However on his anlaysis you do have a god of the Qur'an who can use something that is objectively evil for his own purposes, we have a God of absolute purity and holiness who is incapable of acting against this holy nature.

I don't understand this statement.

Do you mean God cannot act against His Nature, so to speak, therefore He cannot do what you think of as evil?


john.

That is my point, there is an aspect of evil that concerns rebellion against God, which God cannot be guilty of. This is the root of all sin and while it may be sin for the rebel it is ordained by God and is not objectively (i.e. when looked at from the eternal) evil but good.

God uses evil, he sends lying spirits and such is not objectively evil. To say that they are is to say that God is capable of using evil which he is not, he is holy and pure.

We are created beings and in no way am I saying that when we do evil that we are doing good from our perpective, from the perspective against which we are judged we are sinning.

To say that when God uses evil it is objectively evil is to impugn the nature of God.

When we suffer under evil we can have peace in the knowledge that this evil under which we suffer will glorify God.

 

[Pergamum]

Hippo:

I think what you are saying is correct, but your wording may lead others astray. God uses evil for good, but evil is not good. All things work for good, but all things are not good in and of themselves. I am glad that you verfied that God is absolutely pure and could do no evil.

And, John, your statement, "God could only commit an evil act if He had created a law forbidding Himself from such an act.." is naive - the law springs forth from God's moral nature and is a reflection of that nature. God and his law are not someway loose of each other.



I am note sure what is being pushed for in this post. A practical ramification of God's sovereignty is that God uses all things for His glory and even when we suffer, God will use it for His glory and the good of the Christian.

But the post does not seem initially to be steered that way, but steered into some sloppy semantics of calling evil good.All Christians ought to oppose such statements as that.

 

[john]

Ok Hippo, (God is guilty of nothing, (as if He was ever on trial?)), we go for the root of all sin.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

What's the problem? Explain please. For by him all things were created... Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Our God is Mighty. He deals directly with disobedience, sin, evil. He creates it and sustains all things Does He not? Answer required. Scripture rules.

That is my point, there is an aspect of evil that concerns rebellion against God...

Evil hasn't an aspect of rebellion, it is rebellion, end of story ain't it?

To say that when God uses evil it is objectively evil is to impugn the nature of God.

I don't understand. Obective to who, (whom)? What do you mean by 'God's Nature'? Do I impugn His Name by saying :

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)


()ohn.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

God is the Author of sin....

Wrong!

Learn more about the Scriptures before you openly contradict what they actually teach. That God is not the author of sin is explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

This is not open for discussion. You may discuss compatibilism all day long but the moment you make God the proximate cause of sin you have left the reservation.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Evil in scripture is not alway rendered wickedness nor something immoral. It can be used in the context of something horrific or terrible. Something that is full of destruction. Evil is not necessarily wickedness. By the way. God can not sin or be rebellious because he is holy and righteous and in him is no darkness. He uses the wicked for his revelation of goodness or judgment maybe but he can not do wickedly or go against his character of Holiness.

We discussed the evil of death a while back and our good buddy Vic rendered this....

......On the other track, regarding your question to Paul about definition of evil, I skimmed my lexicons for Hebrew and Greek and saw that the respective words are used both for moral evil and for just plain calamity, natural illness, and the like. So it is fair (and Biblical) to say a neutral injury is evil and yet not immoral. It's not my point, but a point of information.

One must define evil and how it is being used.

Also remember....Adam was created good. The creation was created good.

 

[DMcFadden]

John,

In this area, the confessions are quite clear to affirm the absolute sovereignty of God AND to separate him from sin. That is the point of 3.1 in both the WCF and the LBCF.

Suggesting otherwise runs counter to the teaching of the confessions and settles the logical paradoxes at the cost of impugning the character of God.

 

[stevestutz]

As far as the entire discussion goes. I have always had this idea: as humans, we categorize things as good or bad. In doing this, everything must fit under one category or the other, we take it to such an extent that we even categorize God under something, as if good and evil is a law that transcends even God's sovereignty. Wouldn't the biblical approach to this be that simply: God is good. Not that on the scale of good VS evil, God is more good than all else. NO, God, Himself, IS, GOOD. Anything that is contrary to him, is evil. Yes he has complete control over evil, and he allows it to exist, but he uses every action towards his goals, according to his glory. Vessels of mercy, vessels of wrath, all things work together for the good of those who love God, In HIM all things find their being, God is the sustainer of all, God is God.

Not trying to make a particular viewpoint or argue, just stating what I thought at the moment.