Occult objects in your home

[Pergamum]

Be careful of what you bring into your home! You would be surprised how many times I have seen people with infirmities caused by things they had brought into their house!

Occult objects and idols can wreak havoc on your life.

Deuteronomy 7:26,Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

Deuteronomy 13:17,And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

This was a message sent to me by an evangelist. Also, sometimes other missionaries say things similar to this. During initial missionary training I had an instructor warn us along these lines for about an hour during one course. This way of thinking is often very widespread among missionaries.

How would you respond to this or counter their views in a gentle manner? Some folks would think I am being careless if I used old tribal charms as decorations, etc.

 

[kvanlaan]

Not sure - I think there is wisdom in some of what he says (but not all). I don't think it is wise to bring idols into our homes, but I don't know that they cause infirmities. It is not that they will make you sick, but the fact that they are means of worshipping false gods, that should keep them out of our home.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

The scriptures says we are not to be afraid of idols, the verses in Deuteronomy are probably referring to people who are trusting in these idols or at least believing they have some type of power. But I also think it is wise not to use idols as decorations, would you decorate your house with crucifixes, statues of the virgin Mary, Rosaries, pentagrams or Buddha statues? Especially if the people you are ministering too are used to viewing these objects as idols it would probably wise not bring them into your home.

 

[Tim]

There is also this principle:

Abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thess. 5:22)

 

[Rich Koster]

Debunk the superstition of things possessing evil powers, and don't use ( especially local) objects of idolatry which resemble false deities for decorations. If someone worships motorcycles or horses, I would ride one, because that person has taken it to the ludicrous stage where reasonable conversation is highly improbable. If someone worships trees, I would not avoid using wood. The emphasis is that they, God's people, were defying Him, and that had consequences, not that the items themselves had any spirit of malady living on/in it.

 

[Constantlyreforming]

My mom always told me that Star Wars stuff was of the occult.




so there.

 

[Pergamum]

The Taliban blew up statues of Buddha. If I had an antique statue of Buddha, however, I think I might display it in my home as a decoration. If I had Buddhist neighbors who wanted to bow before it, I suppose I'd need to move it to the basement.

Many tribal cultures have necklaces they believe possess spiritual power to heal or ward off demons. These necklaces make fine gifts for missionary supporters I've always thought. Some, however, would say I am endangering the giftee.

Likewise, in Java, families have a Kris knife where the familial spirit is said to reside (and these make neat wall hangings).

Are missionaries buying into the animistic worldview if they fear these objects? Or, are western missionaries blinded by a Western materialist worldview that minimizes the place of spiritual forces and fails to see the potential spiritual dangers to such practices?

 

[AThornquist]

Then what about "Holy" books? If occult items can cause such things, then why wouldn't the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc.?

 

[Pergamum]

good additional question, Andrew. I keep all of the above as references.

 

[Caroline]

It is absolutely buying into superstition to believe that those things possess the power to make people ill or have bad luck. I think that is a form of worship, even if it is a negative form--it acknowledges the idol as having power.

On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily display an idol that was in frequent use by people in my culture, in case they should be mislead into thinking I honored it. I think statues in general are tacky home decor, so I don't have any. But, if I were into that sort of thing, I would have no problem with having bookends decorated with Egyptian gods, purely for artistic reasons. Nobody worships those gods anymore. If someone brought it up, I'd say that it was a testimony to the eternal power of the true God--He is still worshiped in churches everywhere, and the Egyptian deities are reduced to holding up my books.

This is not nearly on the same level as the occult, but what I do have decorating my home are old photos of Peniel Bible Conference. It is a historical interest of mine, and I ended up with numerous photographs from the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's. Peniel held some highly aberrant theological views in those days and stirred up the longest-running controversy in the history of the OPC (not that the OPC is without blame in the matter, but that is a long story). But the photos are beautiful and interesting, with a whole history involved. I don't think we should look to erase history and art, whether it is old Peniel Bible Conference photos or Indonesian beads. The fact is, these things exist, and they are artsy and interesting. Looking at them, talking about them, using them as conversation pieces in decoration is not inherently wrong, although some wisdom is necessary.

PS Actually, come to think of it, I do have one statue... a figurine of Merlin granting the wish of a hedgehog. I've always liked the Camelot story, and I have a pet hedgehog, so it was fitting. I suppose some would say that Merlin is a wizard and therefore occult. If I lived in a culture that worshiped Merlin, I suppose I wouldn't have the figurine. As it is, it is a fairytale, and the hedgehog is adorable, as all hedgehogs are.

 

[reaganmarsh]

good additional question, Andrew. I keep all of the above as references.

Me too. I don't think I'm opening myself to attack spiritually. The gods of the nations are but idols.

I have a "bad theology" portion of one bookshelf in my Study at the church which serves for reference/research and instructing congregants, inquirers, and even counselees, as necessary/appropriate.

 

[Skyler]

Be careful of what you bring into your home! You would be surprised how many times I have seen people with infirmities caused by things they had brought into their house!

Occult objects and idols can wreak havoc on your life.

Deuteronomy 7:26,Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

Deuteronomy 13:17,And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

This was a message sent to me by an evangelist. Also, sometimes other missionaries say things similar to this. During initial missionary training I had an instructor warn us along these lines for about an hour during one course. This way of thinking is often very widespread among missionaries.

How would you respond to this or counter their views in a gentle manner? Some folks would think I am being careless if I used old tribal charms as decorations, etc.

I really don't think that the problem these passages are addressing is people using idols as decorations in their living rooms.

I do not have much personal experience or profound knowledge of the occult, but it seems to me that it isn't the object itself that is the focus of the spiritual/demonic activity, but the person (or persons) who worships/reveres it.

I tend to suspect that considering such an artifact a "good luck charm" or giving it some similar superstitious reverence or fear (whether based on its history or no) would probably fall under the category of worship and hence convey the above-mentioned curse, but I'm hesitant to say so dogmatically.

 

[Jack K]

This issue has many sides to consider. My family certainly struggled with it where we ministered, especially as nearly every cultural artifact potentially held some religious significance. It was hard to come by anything that reflected the culture and was completely "secular." Some principles:

1. We need not fear the spiritual forces of the occult. If we come into contact with items used for the occult, we don't run away.

2. But we don't like items used for the occult. Especially if they hold little other useful value, why would we keep them around to admire them? Idols and occult artifacts simply aren't admirable, no matter the artistic qualities in them. They represent things we find distasteful. (Paul said it was okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, which has useful value in daily life, if you do it with thanksgiving to God. But he seems to have supported the Ephesians' burning of their magic books, which represented a direct trust in the occult and had no other useful value.)

3. And we want to be careful never to give the impression we are syncretists, adding a little local voodoo to our religion in case it helps alongside of Jesus. Such practice was so common where we were—Christian "believers" who'd pray to God but still went to the medicine man as well when they got really sick, just in case that might help—that we tried to avoid any appearace that we might also be relying on these things on the side.

We didn't display in our home or make gifts of charms, sandpaintings—anything closely associated with belief in false gods and spirits—not because we feared they might harm us or our visitors, but because we found them distasteful. I suppose one might take such items and turn their use into a God-pleasing one, but it never felt quite right to us. Other cultural artifacts like rugs and pottery, where the religious significant was less "out front" and the practical use more evident, we gladly brought into our home and (like food offered to idols) made use of them with thanksgiving to God.

 

[Tim]

...why would we keep them around to admire them? Idols and occult artifacts simply aren't admirable, no matter the artistic qualities in them. They represent things we find distasteful.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Pergamum]

We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?

We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?

 

[Caroline]

I think it is entirely possible to admire the artistry of something without admiring the religion. Greek statues are beautiful, even if they are statues of Zeus and Athena. If someone felt like venerating Zeus and Athena, I'd be more sympathetic to destroying the statues. But it seems questionable whether it just becomes unnecessarily destructive to start crushing all art that wasn't made by Christians. People may have wrong religious beliefs, but that doesn't make them bad artists.

I can see dealing with problems that encourage idolatry now, but I see no reason to destroy things that no one has worshiped for a thousand years, or if it is now in a culture where no one even knows it ever had a religious purpose (Indonesian beads or wall hangings given to Americans). At some point, it has the effect of venerating the object--it is such a threat to Christianity that we must get rid of it even when no one bothers with it anymore.

 

[Tim]

People may have wrong religious beliefs, but that doesn't make them bad artists.

I think we must take care to distinguish between artistic works done by non-Christians that 1) were done to portray or promote evil religion, and 2) do not express anything unlawful in itself.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that the latter is not permitted.

But I do think there is a categorical distinction between a statue of Buddha and a statue of a horse or lion (for example).

 

[Loopie]

I am not sure why we are necessarily talking about destroying pieces of art, or even just pieces of human history. Certainly we ought to be careful about having things in and around our home (or on our necks/wrists). But I certainly would not advocate a community wide destruction of historic/religious/artistic objects. The Taliban destruction of Buddhist statues comes to mind, as well as the conversion of the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque after the fall of Constantinople.

I can understand getting rid of things in your home that are idolatrous, but at what point should the community or nation as a whole tear down and destroy the objects of others of different faiths? Even if those objects USED to be religious, they might simply be artistic now (the Muslims have not destroyed the Pyramids). And even if those objects are no longer religious or artistic, they are still historical. Should the Black Stone of the Kaaba in Mecca be destroyed? Should the wailing wall in Jerusalem be destroyed? If for some reason Saudi Arabia and Israel became overwhelmingly Christian in their population, would we as Christians be obligated to destroy those objects?

 

[Tim]

.

Numbers 33:52
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:

2 Chronicles 14:3
For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:

 

[Jack K]

We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?

We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?

I do think there comes a point where some false religious artifacts take on historical significance. Also, all artifacts of an unbelieving culture will be, often to a great extent, tainted by false religion... and that tainting in itself shouldn't be a cause to reject the artifact completely. We'd have to reject the entire culture.

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule here. I think all the principles I mentioned earlier apply, and we need to apply wisdom and act accordingly based on the particular situation, artifact, and people involved. I would have no problem visiting an Egyptian pyramid. In fact, I'd like to. I'm sure I'd be impressed, to an extent. But I wouldn't forget the deception and false worship behind them, either.

 

[Loopie]

.

Numbers 33:52
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:

2 Chronicles 14:3
For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:

I guess it comes down again to the relationship between church and state. Surely the church, as the new Israel, is to remove all idolatry within it (within the church). But does this apply as well to an entire nation? If for some reason the vast majority of a population in a modern nation today were Christian, would they therefore be obligated to destroy all non-Christian artifacts, even if those artifacts are within the possession of non-Christian citizens of the nation?

 

[Caroline]

I still have no problem with them if they were made to promote a false religion... as long as they are not used for that purpose now and displayed in such a way as to imply reverence. When God told the Israelites to destroy the altars of the false gods, those were altars currently in use. Think of it this way: How many homeschoolers teach their children Greek and Roman myths in literature? How many people here own a copy of Plato's works? The Apostle Paul quoted pagan poets in the Bible. Calvin thoroughly discusses Plato and other pagan philosophers in the Institutes. I think it is pretty standard for Christians to appreciate works of pagan cultures, even those that explicitly reference false gods. Even pagans are made in the image of God, and they produce some remarkable art, poetry, and literature. We shouldn't venerate it, but there's no need to be scared of it, or even to be ignorant of it.

 

[Pergamum]

.

Numbers 33:52
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:

2 Chronicles 14:3
For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:

How would the New Testament church do these things? What does "general equity" require in this case?

 

[Alan D. Strange]

I am not sure how this thread got to public art and artifacts that have been manufactured for idolatrous purposes.

The thread title is "Occult objects in your home" and the primary concern was attributing to them power to do us ill. I think that it's clear from a number of cited Scriptures that such objects have no such power.

They represent false worship, however. Why would I want them, both for fear of their presence being misunderstood, as if my faith were in any measure syncretistic, and also for the fact that they are violations of, at least, the first three commandments in their manufacture? To me something does not go from being made as an idol for false worship to a decoration in my home. It's not just distasteful, it seems to lack good judgment and to be so open to misinterpretation as to be simply avoided. I should add that I may have them for scholarly purposes, but that's completely different from using them as decoration.

Now what to do about such outside my home is not something under my control, in the first instance. So even if I wanted to argue for the destruction of a Buddha statue, that's something else altogether different from having it or not having it in my home. There's all sort of art that I may see in a museum, including idols of all sorts, that do not prompt me to crave their destruction. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I would never want something of that sort used as decoration in my home.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Caroline]

I am not sure how this thread got to public art and artifacts that have been manufactured for idolatrous purposes.

The thread title is "Occult objects in your home" and the primary concern was attributing to them power to do us ill. I think that it's clear from a number of cited Scriptures that such objects have no such power.

They represent false worship, however. Why would I want them, both for fear of their presence being misunderstood, as if my faith were in any measure syncretistic, and also for the fact that they are violations of, at least, the first three commandments in their manufacture? To me something does not go from being made as an idol for false worship to a decoration in my home. It's not just distasteful, it seems to lack good judgment and to be so open to misinterpretation as to be simply avoided. I should add that I may have them for scholarly purposes, but that's completely different from using them as decoration.

Now what to do about such outside my home is not something under my control, in the first instance. So even if I wanted to argue for the destruction of a Buddha statue, that's something else altogether different from having it or not having it in my home. There's all sort of art that I may see in a museum, including idols of all sorts, that do not prompt me to crave their destruction. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I would never want something of that sort used as decoration in my home.

Peace,
Alan

Do you have a book of Greek or Roman mythology in your home? Or a Bible that quotes in the book of Acts a poem written in praise of Zeus?

If you choose not to have decorations in your home of any type, then that is, of course, your business. I wouldn't even really argue it in any ordinary church setting. If it bothers someone, then they are free not to do it. However, I do think the logic breaks down at some point. Paul quoted Cretica (a poem in praise of Zeus) and the Holy Scriptures included the quote. I don't think we should try to be holier than God.

Art in a museum seems to me to be not that far different from what I have in my home. Generally, if I appreciate something or find it interesting, that is the sort of thing I decorate with. The difference between scholarly interest and decorative interest is very blurry to me. Why must I see it in a museum and not see it at home? But then, I decorate more for interest than for beauty. Everything in my home has some story behind it.

PS A observation: A couple of years ago, our church ran a VBS program called "Out of Egypt," about the story of God delivering the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt. Can you guess what we decorated with? Yep, pyramids. Also, we had a guy dressed up as Pharaoh (who was considered a deity in ancient Egypt) that we called "Memory Verse Pharaoh" and he helped the kids learn their memory verses. Now, of course, we would never decorate with Buddhas or Hindu gods, because those are currently worshiped. But I don't think anyone (kid or adult) walked into our VBS and said, "Perhaps I should pour out a drink offering to Osiris." It was decoration, pure and simple. Everyone understood that. There ARE pyramids in Egypt, and when you think, "Let's decorate Egyptian style," you think pyramids. Nobody attaches a mystical importance to them during a VBS program. Hence the reason I am uncomfortable proclaiming that all decoration of anything that was ever used in worship of other gods should be shunned. Let's get real here. We all read pagan literature. Sometimes pastors even use the story of Sisyphus as a sermon illustration. I can think of no logical reason that we can enjoy an ancient Greek play but must shun ancient Greek art. I can't see why Paul could quote pagan poetry to emphasize sermon points but I must hate it. Sometimes art is just art.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Caroline:

I have not intended to speak in a way that caused offense. I hope that I have caused none.

All of the instances that you mention (pagan books, Paul) are educational: didactic and polemical (I used the word "scholarly" to mean the same thing). Of course, I am not opposed to learning about any of these things, or, for example, to quoting Nietzsche in a public lecture, as I did recently. In fact, part of my task as a professor is apologetics and I employ all sorts of things in the pursuit of it.

Paul deconstructed the Stoics and Epicureans and reconstructed them in a Christian context because this is God's world and not the pagan's. That was all verbal. How do you reconstruct a mute image, however? We're not told that he grabbed any of those idols in the agora and took them home. I'm sure that he didn't, unless he had them for a sort of "show and tell" to instruct and warn about such. That is to say, for educational purposes.

That's all something rather different than the original question with respect to using "old tribal charms as decorations." Things that are specifically made as idols (images, not books of those religions--not the same) could seem, in the missionary context especially, inappropriate as decorations, as Jack so well noted, giving to them an honor that they do not deserve.

There are host of things that I've seen in museums all over and profitably learned from that I would never dream having in my home. We are apparently on a very different wave-length on this one. Perhaps in practice we are not as far apart as it seems but are not connecting in our communincation.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Caroline]

No, no offense at all. I merely find it an interesting topic. Truthfully, if this discussion were taking place in the Fellowship Hall at church, I wouldn't even argue the point--there's no harm in refraining from displaying certain decorations, and I would avoid it if only so as not to cause dissension in the church and give my pastor a headache. A discussion board makes me more forthcoming with my opinions. Really, I think that if someone is uncomfortable having those things in their home, then they probably shouldn't have them. I would not have a Buddha in my home--partly because I think those statues are ugly, and partly because it would suggest to visitors that I am Buddhist. I actually have no Egyptian statues either, although I do have an interest in Egyptian art. I don't think I would be opposed to having them. My home mostly displays books written by early OPC ministers and photos of the Peniel Bible Conference as those are my primary topics of research.

It's more a question of logical consistency--can we say that pagan literature may be enjoyed (as nearly every Christian does), but pagan art cannot? Must we constantly feel resentment toward it, or can we just appreciate it as art when it offends no one? I do agree that in the context in which something is commonly worshiped, it should be avoided for the sake of one's witness, generally speaking. A missionary probably shouldn't display the gods of the tribe in his home... but if someone happened to pick one up on a tour and had it as a decoration with no further significance attached to it (and no one even knew what it was), then I don't see the harm.

Also... I apologize if I sounded belligerent about my comments. Forums make for interesting discussion but don't convey tone well. It's an interesting topic, but not one in which I have a personal stake (I don't have any pagan art, unless you count my Merlin and hedgehog figurine).

 

[Pergamum]

Should I stop shipping tribal necklaces home to supporters or family as souvenirs from living overseas?

There are some pretty neat wood carvings here among the Asmat, but they are connected to pagan worship.

I know folks who keep old swords and shields to hang on their walls - to what extent are they guilty or not merely tacky decorating but sinful glorification of violence?

I can think of no American off-hand who would be tempted to idolatry when confronted with a wooden totem.

 

[sevenzedek]

God's declarative and aesthetic glory exists in pagan art and I think that glory should be enjoyed even though unbelievers enjoy it wrongly (Hmmm, unbelievers enjoying God's glory sounds like the Unbelievers Desiring God thread). However, pagan art may also appear to communicate pagan ideology to some people. We need to be careful about what we may be inadvertently communicating to others. Because the circumstances in which we are free to enjoy pagan art are too varied, it is difficult to come up with a rule that would govern our enjoyment of it. I think we need to be mindful of our cultural context and our personal motivations.

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?

We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?

Indeed I find them (the pyramids / Buddha statues) quite distasteful. When I last visited New Zealand, it was amazing how demonic the statues of the maoris were. Made me angry just looking at them, knowing that satan had infiltrated the polynesian culture to the core and encouraged idolatry etc.

In Taiwan, christians who had recently converted would fill up with disgust at all the "collections" they have procured over the years - artwork literally describing demons, ancestor worship, chinese mythology etc. They would take it all outside and burn it. The aroma from burning such demonic material is most pleasing

can we say that pagan literature may be enjoyed (as nearly every Christian does), but pagan art cannot?

Well I barely enjoy pagan literature. When I was a "weak" christian in my first 5 years, I voraciously read all kinds of books (Penguin classics, fantasy, crime etc...), of which "I am now ashamed of". Having recently found "The Bruised reed", I think my extra-biblical reading desires shall fully be satisfied by such Godly writings as by the Puritans.

But I think overall, this is a matter of Christian liberty: if it offends anyone, then chuck it out. If you know in your conscience that idols have no power and that you are "en guarde" against the deceitful nature of such things, then by all means keep it. As for heathen literature - I find very little profit in most of them. I guess you can learn of their worldview? I find talking to strangers one-on-one is a very fast way to gauge what is "going around" in the current culture.