Ordo salutis and the knowledge of sin

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BertMulder

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Am involved in a heavy duty debate on this in a Dutch language forum.

My opponent maintains that knowledge of sin (through the law) takes place before regeneration (in the narrow sense). In other words, when man is still dead in sin. The idea being that the law, as a taskmaster, driving the sinner to Christ.

My position is, as man, before the quickening by the Spirit, is dead, and spiritual matters must be spiritually discerned, thus the knowledge of sin must of necessity take place after regeneration (in the narrow sense), or quickening, and after the effectual call (those falling together in time in the ordo salutis), And before repentance, conversion and faith.

We are not speaking here of the growth in our understanding of our sinful nature, and our daily conversion.

Any thoughts?

Scripture references?
 
The way I understand this (not as a theologian) and recognizing you are making a distinction of the "narrow" sense is that:

Man has a general awareness of sin by God's natural revelation (e.g. Romans 1), but does not have moral ability to repent before salvation because the special revelation of Christ is required.
 
I think he's misusing Galatians 3 and the schoolmaster analogy. The Law is not opposed to grace in this instance and it is clear from Galatians that the Law's function as a guide to lead to Christ was given to those within the Abrahamic Covenant. It was not opposed to the Abrahamic Covenant if understood that it's purpose was to cause believers to understand their need for Christ.

I also think it's plain from Romans 1-3 that men are dead in their sins and trespasses and that the Law itself does not bring life. In fact, fundamental to Reformed theology is that men has a knowledge of the Law but it is supressed in unrighteousness. If the Law itself could awaken men to the knowledge of sin and their need for Christ then the Gospel would not need to be revealed but would be intuitively understood.

The only thing the Law brings, apart from the Gospel, is a certain expectation of judgment but no solution to it. The Law does not make souls alive so that they seek escape in Christ from that judgment but only causes further suppression.
 
In Romans 1 and 2, Paul lays out this very thing...that men did not retain the knowledge of God in their minds...and yet, have the law written on their hearts. How so? By Nature...the very people that deny the exsistence of God, (the same that invent their own), see in nature certain things that apply for social order.

Yet, all this is to say, men seek to have a power over them, but one that is from their nature (of depravity), and therefore, they invent gods for themselves.

Now, we have Sianai and the Commandments...the Law is SPIRITUAL, says Paul, and elsewhere, that the Natural man CANNOT recieve the things of the SPIRIT of God, NEITHER can he KNOW them, for they are SPIRITUALLY discerned...therefore, apart from being regenerated, a person cannot TRULY understand the Law of God (BEING it is SPIRITUAL).

And, Remember Jesus' Sermon on the Mount/Plain? He has to show the Jews the true meaning of the Law...and when he was finished, there MINDS WERE BLOWN! They had not seen their spiritual depravity shown in such power before...we see how it is impossible in ourselves to even understand the true essence of the Commandments, thanks to the Spirit revealing even this.

Give that to your Dutch Language discussion...and see where that goes!
 
In Romans 1 and 2, Paul lays out this very thing...that men did not retain the knowledge of God in their minds...and yet, have the law written on their hearts. How so? By Nature...the very people that deny the exsistence of God, (the same that invent their own), see in nature certain things that apply for social order.

Yet, all this is to say, men seek to have a power over them, but one that is from their nature (of depravity), and therefore, they invent gods for themselves.

Now, we have Sianai and the Commandments...the Law is SPIRITUAL, says Paul, and elsewhere, that the Natural man CANNOT recieve the things of the SPIRIT of God, NEITHER can he KNOW them, for they are SPIRITUALLY discerned...therefore, apart from being regenerated, a person cannot TRULY understand the Law of God (BEING it is SPIRITUAL).

Give that to your Dutch Language discussion...and see where that goes!

Thanks!

Been there, done that...

They seem to be stuck in a rut, wanting to see a deep deep knowledge of sin, almost as a condition to come to Christ, and yet not admitting that one has to be spiritually alive in order to have the knowledge of sin.

I see this as one of the 'excesses' of the Nearer Reformation.

They also have a lot of admiration for the view of Perkins, Ames, et al regarding 'preparatory grace'.
 
Hmm! Seems there isn't much more you can go on...if I think of something further, I will try to help. Won't be until later today or possibley tomorrow, but I will see if I can give you something,,,

It is strange that if you quoted that natural men can't recieve spiritual things, and that the law is spiritual, I ....well, don't know what else to say.

Maybe something else will pop into my mind, Lord Willing.
 
Could be that it is just that...

Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned...

If one is not spiritual....

No matter what God's Word says, he won't get it.
 
Could be that it is just that...

Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned...

If one is not spiritual....

No matter what God's Word says, he won't get it.

:up:

CHAPTER 4.

THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD STIFLED OR CORRUPTED, IGNORANTLY OR MALICIOUSLY.

Sections.

1. The knowledge of God suppressed by ignorance, many falling away into
superstition. Such persons, however, inexcusable, because their error
is accompanied with pride and stubbornness.

2. Stubbornness the companion of impiety.

3. No pretext can justify superstition. This proved, first, from
reason; and, secondly, from Scripture.

4. The wicked never willingly come into the presence of God. Hence
their hypocrisy. Hence, too, their sense of Deity leads to no good
result.

1. But though experience testifies that a seed of religion is divinely
sown in all, scarcely one in a hundred is found who cherishes it in his
heart, and not one in whom it grows to maturity so far is it from
yielding fruit in its season. Moreover, while some lose themselves in
superstitious observances, and others, of set purpose, wickedly revolt
from God, the result is that, in regard to the true knowledge of him,
all are so degenerate, that in no part of the world can genuine
godliness be found. In saying that some fall away into superstition, I
mean not to insinuate that their excessive absurdity frees them from
guilt; for the blindness under which they labour is almost invariably
accompanied with vain pride and stubbornness. Mingled vanity and pride
appear in this, that when miserable men do seek after God, instead of
ascending higher than themselves as they ought to do, they measure him
by their own carnal stupidity, and, neglecting solid inquiry, fly off
to indulge their curiosity in vain speculation. Hence, they do not
conceive of him in the character in which he is manifested, but imagine
him to be whatever their own rashness has devised. This abyss standing
open, they cannot move one footstep without rushing headlong to
destruction. With such an idea of God, nothing which they may attempt
to offer in the way of worship or obedience can have any value in his
sight, because it is not him they worship, but, instead of him, the
dream and figment of their own heart. This corrupt procedure is
admirably described by Paul, when he says, that "thinking to be wise,
they became fools" (Rom. 1:22). He had previously said that "they
became vain in their imaginations," but lest any should suppose them
blameless, he afterwards adds that they were deservedly blinded,
because, not contented with sober inquiry, because, arrogating to
themselves more than they have any title to do, they of their own
accord court darkness, nay, bewitch themselves with perverse, empty
show. Hence it is that their folly, the result not only of vain
curiosity, but of licentious desire and overweening confidence in the
pursuit of forbidden knowledge, cannot be excused.

2. The expression of David (Psalm 14:1, 53:1), "The fool hath said in
his heart, There is no God," is primarily applied to those who, as will
shortly farther appear, stifle the light of nature, and intentionally
stupefy themselves. We see many, after they have become hardened in a
daring course of sin, madly banishing all remembrance of God, though
spontaneously suggested to them from within, by natural sense. To show
how detestable this madness is, the Psalmist introduces them as
distinctly denying that there is a God, because although they do not
disown his essence, they rob him of his justice and providence, and
represent him as sitting idly in heaven. Nothing being less accordant
with the nature of God than to cast off the government of the world,
leaving it to chance, and so to wink at the crimes of men that they may
wanton with impunity in evil courses; it follows, that every man who
indulges in security, after extinguishing all fear of divine Judgment,
virtually denies that there is a God. As a just punishment of the
wicked, after they have closed their own eyes, God makes their hearts
dull and heavy, and hence, seeing, they see not. David, indeed, is the
best interpreter of his own meaning, when he says elsewhere, the wicked
has "no fear of God before his eyes," (Psalm 36:1); and, again, "He has
said in his heart, God has forgotten; he hideth his face; he will never
see it." Thus although they are forced to acknowledge that there is
some God, they, however, rob him of his glory by denying his power.
For, as Paul declares, "If we believe not, he abideth faithful, he
cannot deny himself," (2 Tim. 2:13); so those who feign to themselves a
dead and dumb idol, are truly said to deny God. It is, moreover, to be
observed, that though they struggle with their own convictions, and
would fain not only banish God from their minds, but from heaven also,
their stupefaction is never so complete as to secure them from being
occasionally dragged before the divine tribunal. Still, as no fear
restrains them from rushing violently in the face of God, so long as
they are hurried on by that blind impulse, it cannot be denied that
their prevailing state of mind in regard to him is brutish oblivion.

3. In this way, the vain pretext which many employ to clothe their
superstition is overthrown. They deem it enough that they have some
kind of zeal for religion, how preposterous soever it may be, not
observing that true religion must be conformable to the will of God as
its unerring standard; that he can never deny himself, and is no
spectra or phantom, to be metamorphosed at each individual's caprice.
It is easy to see how superstition, with its false glosses, mocks God,
while it tries to please him. Usually fastening merely on things on
which he has declared he sets no value, it either contemptuously
overlooks, or even undisguisedly rejects, the things which he expressly
enjoins, or in which we are assured that he takes pleasure. Those,
therefore, who set up a fictitious worship, merely worship and adore
their own delirious fancies; indeed, they would never dare so to trifle
with God, had they not previously fashioned him after their own
childish conceits. Hence that vague and wandering opinion of Deity is
declared by an apostle to be ignorance of God: "Howbeit, then, when ye
knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods."
And he elsewhere declares, that the Ephesians were "without God" (Eph.
2:12) at the time when they wandered without any correct knowledge of
him. It makes little difference, at least in this respect, whether you
hold the existence of one God, or a plurality of gods, since, in both
cases alike, by departing from the true God, you have nothing left but
an execrable idol. It remains, therefore, to conclude with Lactantius
(Instit. Div. lib 1:2, 6), "No religion is genuine that is not in
accordance with truth."

4. To this fault they add a second--viz. that when they do think of God
it is against their will; never approaching him without being dragged
into his presence, and when there, instead of the voluntary fear
flowing from reverence of the divine majesty, feeling only that forced
and servile fear which divine Judgment extorts Judgment which, from the
impossibility of escape, they are compelled to dread, but which, while
they dread, they at the same time also hate. To impiety, and to it
alone, the saying of Statius properly applies: "Fear first brought gods
into the world," (Theb. lib. 1). Those whose inclinations are at
variance with the justice of God, knowing that his tribunal has been
erected for the punishment of transgression, earnestly wish that that
tribunal were overthrown. Under the influence of this feeling they are
actually warring against God, justice being one of his essential
attributes. Perceiving that they are always within reach of his power,
that resistance and evasion are alike impossible, they fear and
tremble. Accordingly, to avoid the appearance of condemning a majesty
by which all are overawed, they have recourse to some species of
religious observance, never ceasing meanwhile to defile themselves with
every kind of vice, and add crime to crime, until they have broken the
holy law of the Lord in every one of its requirements, and set his
whole righteousness at nought; at all events, they are not so
restrained by their semblance of fear as not to luxuriate and take
pleasure in iniquity, choosing rather to indulge their carnal
propensities than to curb them with the bridle of the Holy Spirit. But
since this shadow of religion (it scarcely even deserves to be called a
shadow) is false and vain, it is easy to infer how much this confused
knowledge of God differs from that piety which is instilled into the
breasts of believers, and from which alone true religion springs. And
yet hypocrites would fain, by means of tortuous windings, make a show
of being near to God at the very time they are fleeing from him. For
while the whole life ought to be one perpetual course of obedience,
they rebel without fear in almost all their actions, and seek to
appease him with a few paltry sacrifices; while they ought to serve him
with integrity of heart and holiness of life, they endeavour to procure
his favour by means of frivolous devices and punctilios of no value.
Nay, they take greater license in their grovelling indulgences, because
they imagine that they can fulfil their duty to him by preposterous
expiations; in short, while their confidence ought to have been fixed
upon him, they put him aside, and rest in themselves or the creatures.
At length they bewilder themselves in such a maze of error, that the
darkness of ignorance obscures, and ultimately extinguishes, those
sparks which were designed to show them the glory of God. Still,
however, the conviction that there is some Deity continues to exist,
like a plant which can never be completely eradicated, though so
corrupt, that it is only capable of producing the worst of fruit. Nay,
we have still stronger evidence of the proposition for which I now
contend--viz. that a sense of Deity is naturally engraven on the human
heart, in the fact, that the very reprobate are forced to acknowledge
it. When at their ease, they can jest about God, and talk pertly and
loquaciously in disparagement of his power; but should despair, from
any cause, overtake them, it will stimulate them to seek him, and
dictate ejaculatory prayers, proving that they were not entirely
ignorant of God, but had perversely suppressed feelings which ought to
have been earlier manifested.

Chapter 7
...5. Let it therefore be held as fixed, that those who are inwardly
taught by the Holy Spirit acquiesce implicitly in Scripture; that
Scripture, carrying its own evidence along with it, deigns not to
submit to proofs and arguments, but owes the full conviction with which
we ought to receive it to the testimony of the Spirit. [73] Enlightened
by him, we no longer believe, either on our own Judgment or that of
others, that the Scriptures are from God; but, in a way superior to
human Judgment, feel perfectly assured--as much so as if we beheld the
divine image visibly impressed on it--that it came to us, by the
instrumentality of men, from the very mouth of God. We ask not for
proofs or probabilities on which to rest our Judgment, but we subject
our intellect and Judgment to it as too transcendent for us to
estimate. This, however, we do, not in the manner in which some are
wont to fasten on an unknown object, which, as soon as known,
displeases, but because we have a thorough conviction that, in holding
it, we hold unassailable truth; not like miserable men, whose minds are
enslaved by superstition, but because we feel a divine energy living
and breathing in it--an energy by which we are drawn and animated to
obey it, willingly indeed, and knowingly, but more vividly and
effectually than could be done by human will or knowledge. Hence, God
most justly exclaims by the mouth of Isaiah, "Ye are my witnesses,
saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and
believe me, and understand that I am he," (Isa. 43:10).

Such, then, is a conviction which asks not for reasons; such, a
knowledge which accords with the highest reason, namely knowledge in
which the mind rests more firmly and securely than in any reasons; such
in fine, the conviction which revelation from heaven alone can produce.
I say nothing more than every believer experiences in himself, though
my words fall far short of the reality. I do not dwell on this subject
at present, because we will return to it again: only let us now
understand that the only true faith is that which the Spirit of God
seals on our hearts. Nay, the modest and teachable reader will find a
sufficient reason in the promise contained in Isaiah, that all the
children of the renovated Church "shall be taught of the Lord," (Isaiah
54:13). This singular privilege God bestows on his elect only, whom he
separates from the rest of mankind. For what is the beginning of true
doctrine but prompt alacrity to hear the Word of God? And God, by the
mouth of Moses, thus demands to be heard: "It is not in heavens that
thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto
us, that we may hear and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in
thy mouth and in thy heart," (Deut. 30:12, 14). God having been pleased
to reserve the treasure of intelligence for his children, no wonder
that so much ignorance and stupidity is seen in the generality of
mankind. In the generality, I include even those specially chosen,
until they are ingrafted into the body of the Church. Isaiah, moreover,
while reminding us that the prophetical doctrine would prove incredible
not only to strangers, but also to the Jews, who were desirous to be
thought of the household of God, subjoins the reason, when he asks, "To
whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (Isaiah 53:1). If at any
time, then we are troubled at the small number of those who believe,
let us, on the other hand, call to mind, that none comprehend the
mysteries of God save those to whom it is given.
 
Larger Catechism question 96, What particular use is there of the moral law to unregenerate men? Awakening and inexcusability.

In the Scriptures men are said to resist the Holy Spirit so far as His common operations upon men's natural constitutions are concerned.
 
One of the greatest deceptions and signs of a depraved mind is that it thinks itself not so depraved.

Blessings and prayers!
 
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