OT Elemental use of musical instruments ceremonial and gone in NT or not?

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Perhaps what we should consider now is if what God rejects as idolatry in public worship is something that he accepts in private worship? It seems that if we do not settle for a changing God the same regulations apply to all worship, whether public or private. If this is the case, and instruments can be used in private as you have affirmed, it can logically be inferred that instruments can also be used in public worship if done decently and in order. Do you see how your lack of connecting the dots is causing inconsistency in your reasoning?

That God has different regulations for public and private worship doesn't make God changeable. In the home the father may instruct and the mother may lead in prayer, unlike in public worship.

I came back to edit this post because I didn't like my snarky tone in it (again, please forgive me Tim.)I originally said here that I didn't affirm that musical instruments may be used in private or family worship; however in fact I did initially affirm that the RPW only applies to public worship. That's not really what I believe, and now I know that I won't be saying it again; but don't know that it's something we can press on people. A great area for study and counsel.
 
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Grant, I think you are being more consistent with this position. I'm questioning Jeri's reasoning since she is talking about the possibility of a difference between corporate and private worship. She made the point that instruments were okay for private worship and I'm pushing for consistency in this regard.

Now in regards to your assertion, do you believe that the Israelites were worshipping God with instruments privately? If so, can believers worship God corporately with instruments or do you insist that even their use outside of temple worship was either a) not done in worship proper, or b) ceremonial in nature? Something else that I missed?
Y'all show me where I talked about using musical instruments in private or family worship?
Never mind, in post 23, I see. I wasn't so focused at that point on using uninspired hymns and musical instruments in actual worship; I had in mind sitting around and singing but should have been more careful. I did say shortly after that I believe the RPW applies to private and family worship.
 
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Just to address another topic here, there wasn't a need for Paul or anyone to address this issue early in the Church because it wasn't something that was done. After the Temple was destroyed in AD 70 the Psalms were sang acappella in the early Church. The Psalms were commanded to be sung.

On a side note, I love the old Hymns. I still sing and listen to them as well as I sing and listen to John Michael Talbot's music. He is a Roman Catholic. I appreciate the beauty of his music as it is more scriptural than most of the stuff you hear on K-Love or from the other effeminate sounding guys of these days. I gave up on CCM a long time ago. It just grated my ears and sounded so shallow. That is only my opinion. And opinions are like armpits. I try to use deodorant. lol

When it comes to the Sabbath it is set apart on a different level and in a different way. Things are regulated differently from the other six days.

I will try to post a blog up concerning this question of musical instruments and concerning private worship vs public worship soon. I will see if Dr. Prutow can help me. I find his communication to be very edifying, informative, and less combative. For now here is a link to the objections and questions that he has already given me permission to post. https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/?s=Prutow
 
Grant, I think you are being more consistent with this position. I'm questioning Jeri's reasoning since she is talking about the possibility of a difference between corporate and private worship.
Tim, I looked back over my posts in this sort of frenzy of quick postings and I think you are correct that Grant was being more consistent. I was reluctant to come out and say what he said, but I do agree and think this is the only logical and theological outcome of the RPW. I do distinguish as he does, between a more casual setting where hymns and musical instruments may be in use and the deliberate worship of God. Forgive any heatedness and obfuscation on my part; don't think I did any such on purpose but who has to really try with that stuff?? I appreciate your pressing.
 
Now in regards to your assertion, do you believe that the Israelites were worshipping God with instruments privately?

If so, can believers worship God corporately with instruments or do you insist that even their use outside of temple worship was either a) not done in worship proper, or b) ceremonial in nature? Something else that I missed?

I need clarity before I answer. Are you asking in the OT or NT context? @timfost
 
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Since there was a change in worship after Christ, we would expect to see the exact pattern given for NT worship, and we do. It doesn't include musical instruments (we know because there's no command for it).

The change in worship after Christ has to do with His fulfilling all of the animal sacrifices, which were abolished after His death and resurrection. We no longer sacrifice animals. But we can still use musical instruments to praise God corporately in worship, just as the Old Testament saints did because there is no New Testament command that instruments not be used.
 
The change in worship after Christ has to do with His fulfilling all of the animal sacrifices, which were abolished after His death and resurrection. We no longer sacrifice animals. But we can still use musical instruments to praise God corporately in worship, just as the Old Testament saints did because there is no New Testament command that instruments not be used.

To be fair, I think the ceremonial goes beyond animal sacrifices. Washings, bowls, clean/unclean, dietary restrictions, etc. I don't think your argument is necessarily a great one, though I agree with your point that instruments are permissible in worship.
 
To be fair, I think the ceremonial goes beyond animal sacrifices. Washings, bowls, clean/unclean, dietary restrictions, etc. I don't think your argument is necessarily a great one, though I agree with your point that instruments are permissible in worship.

You're right. I forgot about all the washings, bowls, and whatnot, which are all abolished. But, as you say, I do think my point stands.

UPDATE: As a matter of fact, I'd add that, since all the categories of musical instruments are used in Scripture (percussion, woodwinds, strings, brass), then all the categories of instruments may be used in worship. We're not limited to pianos and organs. All may be used as long as the focus is on the worship of God.
 
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I am going to post some of Dr. Prutow's book here that may be helpful.

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INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC: BASIC OBJECTIONS


Miriam the prophetess, Aaron’s sister, took the timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dancing. ~ EXOD. 15:20



OLD TESTAMENT CELEBRATIONS God ordained the use of trumpets in the stated worship of Israel through Moses (Num. 10:2, 10). God also ordained the use of cymbals, harps, and lyres through David (2 Chron. 29:25). As has been seen, these instruments had symbolic and typological significance. Their use in Old Testament temple worship is, therefore, no warrant for the use of musical instruments in New Testament church worship. What about the use of musical instruments in other Old Testament worship settings? That the Old Testament saints used musical instruments in celebrations of praise before God is clear. What prohibits contemporary believers doing the same? The following short study answers this question. One of the popular instruments in the Old Testament was the timbrel or tambourine. The first mention of tambourines is in Genesis 31:27.

Jacob’s father-in-law, Laban, complains that he has not been given an opportunity to properly send away his daughters with a banquet. “Why did you flee secretly and deceive me, and did not tell me so that I might have sent you away with joy and with songs, with timbrel and with lyre?” Stereotypical banquets or wedding feasts of that time featured singing and dancing with timbrel and lyre.

Job 21:12 speaks similarly of the revelry of unbelievers. “They sing to the timbrel and harp and rejoice at the sound of the flute.” This text again pictures a secular celebration. Israel was prone to engage in such revelry and to ignore God. “Their banquets are accompanied by lyre and harp, by tambourine and flute, and by wine; but they do not pay attention to the deeds of the Lord, nor do they consider the work of His hands” (Isa. 5:12). The contemporary culture of the time celebrated various events with banquets, singing, and playing various instruments. Banquets, singing, and playing musical instruments were not sinful in themselves. The problem in Israel was a failure to acknowledge God. The result was judgment.

When judgment comes, “The gaiety of tambourines ceases, / The noise of revelers stops, / The gaiety of the harp ceases” (Isa. 24:8). Judgment cuts off joy, celebration, banquet, and party. On the other hand, when Israel’s enemies face God’s judgment, it is time to celebrate. Israel will rejoice at the demise of Assyria. “Every blow of the rod of punishment, / Which the Lord will lay on him, / Will be with the music of tambourines and lyres” (Isa. 30:32). In like manner, the restoration of Israel from exile meant the restoration of banquet, joy, celebration, and party. “Again you will take up your tambourines, / And go forth to the dances of the merrymakers” (Jer. 31:4). These texts all make statements regarding culturally-conditioned, secular and occasional celebrations.

Given the common use of tambourines in the culture of the time, it is not surprising that Miriam took up the timbrel to celebrate the crossing of the Red Sea and the destruction of the Egyptians. The people naturally would have celebrated a great occasion in this manner. “Miriam the prophetess, Aaron’s sister, took the timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dancing” (Exod. 15:20). In this case, Miriam gave thanks to the Lord. “Miriam answered them, ‘Sing to the Lord, for He is highly exalted; the horse and his rider He has hurled into the sea’” (Exod. 15:21).

This celebration had a worshipful component. However, it differed from the tabernacle worship and temple worship later ordained by God. This difference is crucial. Regular worship, stated for each Sabbath or Lord’s Day, is God-ordained and heaven-directed. Miriam’s celebration occasioned by God’s deliverance was a one-time event and culturally-conditioned. It provides no warrant for us to use instrumental music in regular, stated New Testament worship today. The distinction is regular, weekly, stated, heaven-directed worship versus occasional, culturally-conditioned celebrations.

Continuing the discussion of culturally-conditioned, occasional celebrations, turn to Judges 11:34. “When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing.” Jephthah’s daughter celebrated his victory in battle over Ammon. Scripture records a similar circumstance regarding David. “It happened as they were coming, when David returned from killing the Philistine, that the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy and with musical instruments” (1 Sam. 18:6). As in the case of Miriam, this celebration involved special circumstances rather than regular, stated, weekly meetings established by God. Further, these celebrations were culturally-shaped. As argued in part one of this study, regular tabernacle and temple worship was God-directed and heaven-filled.

There are two other important incidents in the Old Testament manifesting an air of celebration and having a worshipful component. The first is 1 Chronicles 13:8, where David celebrated the return of the ark of God from the Philistines. “David and all Israel were celebrating before God with all their might, even with songs and with lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals and with trumpets.” Again, this celebration is culturally-shaped. And, as in the case of Miriam, this celebration involved a special circumstance; it was occasional. It differed from the weekly, regular, stated meetings established by God. In addition, as a culturally-shaped celebration, it stood in sharp contrast to the regular, stated worship of God in the tabernacle and temple. The latter is specifically God-directed and heaven-imbued.

In 1 Samuel 10:5, Saul met a band of prophets prophesying and using tambourines and other instruments. Samuel made this prediction. “You will come to the hill of God where the Philistine garrison is; and it shall be as soon as you have come there to the city, that you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and a lyre before them, and they will be prophesying.” The prophets were prophesying; “in a condition of ecstatic inspiration, in which singing or speaking, with accompaniment of music, they gave expression to the overflowing feeling with which their hearts were filled from above by the controlling Spirit.”1

These ministers of God were singing with musical accompaniment; they were doing so under the influence of the Spirit. On one hand, there was a combination of instruments and singing, as found later in the temple. However, as has been observed, the musical instruments are typological. They point to Spirit-empowered proclamation and praise, the exact circumstance of 1 Samuel 10:5. On the other hand, the celebratory activity of the prophets was clearly shaped by their contemporary culture. This again contrasted with the regulated, God-ordained, stated worship of the tabernacle and the temple.

The temple and its services, not the occasional celebrations of the Old Testament, form the basis for New Testament worship. The New Testament repeatedly compares the church with the temple (2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21-22; 1 Pet. 2:5). The temple was the Old Testament designated place for regular, corporate, stated worship. Today, the church assembled is the designated place for regular, corporate, stated worship.

The celebrations of Miriam, Jephthah’s daughter, David, and Saul do not provide an apologetic for the use of instruments in the gatherings of God’s people for regular, stated, worship in the present era. These celebrations were culturally-conditioned and culturally-shaped. These celebrations involved special circumstances and not stated meetings. Scripture shows them to be distinct from regular, corporate, stated worship instituted by God in the tabernacle and temple.

Contemporary Christians have celebrations: patriotic remembrances, special banquets, and weddings, all of which are culturally-shaped. However, believers properly maintain that these celebrations are quite distinct from the regular worship of God, from which they properly exclude instrumental music.


1. David Erdmann, The Books of Samuel: Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures, trans. C. H. Troy and John A. Broadus (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1960), 5:153.

2. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, trans. Joseph H. Thayer (New York: American Book Company, 1889), 675.


Prutow, Dennis. Public Worship 101: An Introduction to the Biblical Theology of Worship, the Elements of Worship, Exclusive Psalmody, and A Cappella Psalmody . Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary Press. Kindle Edition.
 
Richard, this is the normative principle of worship, which states that if God has not forbidden something in worship, it is permitted.

And what's wrong with that? If God has not forbidden something in worship, isn't that implied permission, used along with sanctified common sense?
 
What's wrong is that it is the Lutheran and Anglican view. Richard, The board (as does the OPC right?) holds to the regulative principle vs the normative principle of worship. The subject in question needs to be argued with the RPW in view.
And what's wrong with that? If God has not forbidden something in worship, isn't that implied permission, used along with sanctified common sense?

Richard, this is the normative principle of worship, which states that if God has not forbidden something in worship, it is permitted.
 
What's wrong is that it is the Lutheran and Anglican view. Richard, The board (as does the OPC right?) holds to the regulative principle vs the normative principle of worship. The subject in question needs to be argued with the RPW in view.

Yes. The OPC holds to the RPW - and allows for musical instruments in worship.
 
And what's wrong with that? If God has not forbidden something in worship, isn't that implied permission, used along with sanctified common sense?

Richard,

While I agree that we should operate according to the RPW, there is no need to buy their argument that instruments somehow add something substantial to praise. Singing with it without instruments is praise and praise is appropriate under the RPW as we'd all agree. I've shown in the other thread that the use of instruments cannot be exclusively assigned to the OT temple ceremonies.

Feel free to PM me about this.
 
The change in worship after Christ has to do with His fulfilling all of the animal sacrifices, which were abolished after His death and resurrection. We no longer sacrifice animals. But we can still use musical instruments to praise God corporately in worship, just as the Old Testament saints did because there is no New Testament command that instruments not be used.
I'd add that, since all the categories of musical instruments are used in Scripture (percussion, woodwinds, strings, brass), then all the categories of instruments may be used in worship. We're not limited to pianos and organs. All may be used as long as the focus is on the worship of God.
And what's wrong with that? If God has not forbidden something in worship, isn't that implied permission, used along with sanctified common sense?
As this is a Reformed board, you should not be surprised at getting some pushback here. What you are advocating is the Normative Principle: "What God has not explicitly forbidden may be done in worship.

That leads to more than a few problems. I'd start by asking a question. Tell me, does your congregation do liturgical dance or drama as part of the Sunday service? There are some with "sanctified common sense" who'd favour it. And if your argument is true, the lack of explicit condemnation is to be taken as permission.
 
I'm confused by those who are okay with musical instruments in corporate worship (Tim or Richard, I suppose), are they allowed in public worship or are they commanded? What were they in the OT, allowed or commanded? If there's been a change where do we see that?
 
I've shown in the other thread that the use of instruments cannot be exclusively assigned to the OT temple ceremonies.
Pardon me Tim if you made this clear and I missed it, but what use of instruments by Israel are you referring to outside of temple worship?
 
To be fair, I think the ceremonial goes beyond animal sacrifices. Washings, bowls, clean/unclean, dietary restrictions, etc. I don't think your argument is necessarily a great one, though I agree with your point that instruments are permissible in worship.
There was much in the OT law that was not about worship at all--dietary constraints, handling of dead people, mildew in houses...these were all ceremonial things dealing with workaday stuff that also have been abrogated. Not sure if it's helpful to point that out here, but it seems like we're talking as though every command and prohibition was directly tied to worship when it wasn't.
 
There was much in the OT law that was not about worship at all--dietary constraints, handling of dead people, mildew in houses...these were all ceremonial things dealing with workaday stuff that also have been abrogated. Not sure if it's helpful to point that out here, but it seems like we're talking as though every command and prohibition was directly tied to worship when it wasn't.
I don't think there's been any confusion there, actually. There are commands and prohibitions concerning worship, part of ceremonial law, and there are commands and prohibitions concerning other things, also part of the ceremonial law.
 
Pardon me Tim if you made this clear and I missed it, but what use of instruments by Israel are you referring to outside of temple worship?

I wrote this in the other similar thread but it probably fits more appropriately in this one as it elaborates on the issue.
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I think carefully categorizing musical instruments into elements and circumstances can become problematic. We are to sing praises to God. Are we to do that in four part harmony, chant, pentatonic scales, chromatic, diatonic, antiphonal, loud, soft, with our without instruments, clapping, moving, smiling...

Psalm 149:3b says, "Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp." The immediate context is the people of Israel, children of Zion (v. 2), His people (v. 4), the saints (v. 5). Nothing indicates that this was restricted to the Levites. Similarly, Psalm 150 in the list of instruments is calling on everything that has breath to praise the Lord. Again, this is not restricted to temple worship.

Is the natural reading of this usage of instruments to be that one cannot worship God until they have someone to play each instrument listed? I think not! Rather, the use of an instrument was to be an amalgam of both voice and instrument which produced one unified praise. Comparatively, what are permissable ingredients for bread in the Lord's supper? Flour and water would seem to be minimum, but what of salt, yeast, sugar? Are salt, yeast and sugar circumstances or when combined part of the bread?

Should I refrain from using yeast lest people get too attached to leavened bread? Or should the minister not wear a suit since the priests had ceremonial clothing? Perhaps the minister should wear simply blue jeans and a plain white T?

Once we see the praise as a composite, the discussion which would seek to classify into one category or another is moot.
 
I need clarity before I answer. Are you asking in the OT or NT context? @timfost

a) It seems that OT believers used instruments in (private) worship outside of the temple. b) If the RPW applies to public as well as private worship, this may inform us to what is acceptable praise in public (corporate) worship. c) However, is there something that would disqualify their example of private worship from applying to NT use of instruments, such as their particular OT usage not being "worship proper" or perhaps ceremonial in their use? Something else?
 
I wrote this in the other similar thread but it probably fits more appropriately in this one as it elaborates on the issue.
_____

I think carefully categorizing musical instruments into elements and circumstances can become problematic. We are to sing praises to God. Are we to do that in four part harmony, chant, pentatonic scales, chromatic, diatonic, antiphonal, loud, soft, with our without instruments, clapping, moving, smiling...

Psalm 149:3b says, "Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp." The immediate context is the people of Israel, children of Zion (v. 2), His people (v. 4), the saints (v. 5). Nothing indicates that this was restricted to the Levites. Similarly, Psalm 150 in the list of instruments is calling on everything that has breath to praise the Lord. Again, this is not restricted to temple worship.

Is the natural reading of this usage of instruments to be that one cannot worship God until they have someone to play each instrument listed? I think not! Rather, the use of an instrument was to be an amalgam of both voice and instrument which produced one unified praise. Comparatively, what are permissable ingredients for bread in the Lord's supper? Flour and water would seem to be minimum, but what of salt, yeast, sugar? Are salt, yeast and sugar circumstances or when combined part of the bread?

Should I refrain from using yeast lest people get too attached to leavened bread? Or should the minister not wear a suit since the priests had ceremonial clothing? Perhaps the minister should wear simply blue jeans and a plain white T?

Once we see the praise as a composite, the discussion which would seek to classify into one category or another is moot.
I’d say the context of both Psalms is the public worship of the church: Psalm 149:1, “Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints,” and Psalm 150:1, “Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in the firmament of his power.” Nothing in either of the Psalms indicates otherwise.
 
That God has different regulations for public and private worship doesn't make God changeable. In the home the father may instruct and the mother may lead in prayer, unlike in public worship.

I think we're agreed that the same RPW applies to all worship.

The differences you note have more to do with private/public or household/corporate. I don't think that something unacceptable in public is acceptable in private as that which is offered to God, though there are differences in how it is offered to God on behalf of a corporate body.
 
a) It seems that OT believers used instruments in (private) worship outside of the temple. b) If the RPW applies to public as well as private worship, this may inform us to what is acceptable praise in public (corporate) worship. c) However, is there something that would disqualify their example of private worship from applying to NT use of instruments, such as their particular OT usage not being "worship proper" or perhaps ceremonial in their use? Something else?
I see now. This question has a lot of moving parts. However, I will try to give my own answer is a short clear way. The bottom line is that I see instruments time and time again commanded and used in a ceremonial way in the OT, especially the closer we get to the NT. Further, since the NT worship era changed the requirements of worship (in Christ) by dropping the ceremonial aspects and commanding what was to be kept, I do not feel comfortable bringing in instruments as a form of worship proper today.

Just so I understand your take a little more cleary (based on how you interpreted the Psalm), do you believe we are commanded (required) to use instruments in worship proper today?
 
I’d say the context of both Psalms is the public worship of the church: Psalm 149:1, “Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints,” and Psalm 150:1, “Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in the firmament of his power.” Nothing in either of the Psalms indicates otherwise.

Were non-Levites allowed to play instruments in public worship?
 
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