Paul always in the Zone?

[staythecourse]

I did a search but couldn't find this topic. It's an ongoing question I've had.

In short: did Paul sin? I don't see a recorded instance. Was he the walking Holy Spirit at the time meaning: was He always walking in the Holy Spirit and therefore never sinning? Was he always in the Zone?

A side issue but related to it: Was the struggle and failure he described in Romans a personal struggle he faced all the time, at times with a particulr indwelling sin that Jesus hadn't released him from yet (who will deliver me from this body of sin thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord) or was he describing a pre-believer trying to do right who didn't have Jesus yet at all and wanted freedom and Jesus was the answer.

But the main question is: Did Paul sin and what do we base it on?

 

[wsw201]

Yes Paul did sin because he was a sinner by nature. This is based on Rom 7:14ff where Paul is speaking of himself as a regenerate man still struggling with indwelling sin.

 

[Mary]

Going back to my Catholic doctrine, the teaching was that we are all of us sinful, except Jesus and the Virgin Mary. They contend that Mary was conceived without sin (the immaculate conception), never sinned in her lifetime ( which is why they are so adamant that Jesus had no siblings), and never died, but was assumed bodily into heaven (the assumption).

No, I am NOT making that up.

So based on that, I think that all Christians would agree that Jesus was without sin, and except for the Catholic Mary fixation, we would all agree that everyone else in the history of the world has been in a state of sin. Including Paul. Although he was certainly a great man. (And, according to Peter Jennings, much misundertood today. See, I DO get mischievous, don't I?!)

No Bouncys out of respect for your strong anti-bouncy beliefs.

 

[staythecourse]

My idealistic notion

The idea is based on idealism that Paul might have been so vital to the church the God just Made it so in Paul's case and Romans 7 was a pre-Christian.

I recognize almost to the point of submission that Paul sinned based on the above struggle he goes through in first person.

A very influencial preacher (reformed independent Baptist no less) moves me off that point. Hence the post.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

[quote:3724f1b309]
Romans 7 was a pre-Christian.
[/quote:3724f1b309]

There is no way to demosntrate that exegetically. The Greek tense and line of thinking thoruhgout Romans, leading up to that point as well as traversing over it to Romans 8's "Therefore" is a case closed point.

"[i:3724f1b309]Ego[/i:3724f1b309]" must refer to Paul himself. the tesne shifts from past tense to present tense, from verses 7-13 to verses 14-25.

Only the regenerate "delight in God's law" (verse 22)

Only the regenerate seek to obey God's law (v. 15-20)

Only the regenerate serve God's law (verse 25).

The unregenerate do not seek after God (3:11) and cannot submit themsleves to the law of God (Romans 8:7)

The mind of people outside of Christ is always presented by Paul (universally) as OPPOSED to God and His will (Rom. 1:28; Ephesians 2:1ff; 4:17; Col 2:18; etc.)

The mind in this text "ego" serves the law of God (vv. 22-25)

"Ho Ego anthropos" = the inner person, who serves the law, and this can only be a Christian. Paul uses this phrase only two other times in 2 Cor. 4:16 and Ephesians 3:16.

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

The struggle here is concluded in verses 24-25 and demosntrate the nature of the person already saved.

If we talk about the arguments against this being a regenerated person, then her eis what some say:

"Ego" is associated with the flesh - this must be an unregenerate person. [b:3724f1b309]NOT TRUE - Christians are still struggling with the flesh[/b:3724f1b309].

"Ego" is struggling with human power - himself, herself, or I, thus he seems to be atalking about struggling without the aid of the Spirit. [b:3724f1b309]NOT TRUE - the context, especially leading into chapter 8 does not support this at all, for Christians still need to mortify sin throught he power of the Holy spirit which is why in verse 24-25 he talks about serving God and struggling with his flesh.[/b:3724f1b309]

"Ego" is under the power of sin - so it must be a regenerate. [b:3724f1b309] NOT TRUE - christians still struggle witht he power of sin. Christians struggle and place themselves under the power of sin willingly. (What I want to do i do not do...)[/b:3724f1b309]

The "ego" here struggles with obeying the Mosaic law; yet Paul has proclaimed the relase fromt he law (cf. 6:14; 7:4-6).
[b:3724f1b309]NOT TRUE - we are released from the law for justification, not for obedience.[/b:3724f1b309]

Hope that helps.

 

[Bladestunner316]

In corinthians did Paul have a thorn in the flesh.

 

[staythecourse]

Going to digest this.

I'll need to see what you're saying.

Yes, I am considering that he was saying any person (unregenerate) trying to do good and failing so I'll following your reasoning. Appreciate that you took the time.

 

[Galahad]

I would argue that Paul sinned based on the text in 1 John 1 -- (8)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (9)If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (10)If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

In verse 8, it is a present tense claim of sinlessness. In verse 10, it is a past tense claim of sinlessness.

We cannot claim that we are without sin now and we cannot claim that we were without sin at any point in the past. This would apply to Paul as well as to us.

 

[pastorway]

Yes Paul sinned. We all do. Only Jesus didn't.

Paul in Romans 7 is clearly regenerate or he would not be having the battle he describes between his spirit and flesh.

And Paul refers to himself, near the end of his life, as the chief of sinners. (1 Tim 1:15). In fact the phrase was, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I [i:de356af39a]am[/i:de356af39a] chief." Not of "whom I [i:de356af39a]was[/i:de356af39a] chief." This is present tense. He knew he was still a sinner.

The closer we walk with God the more of our own sinfulness we see.

Phillip

 

[Mary]

[quote:857763881c]
The closer we walk with God the more of our own sinfulness we see
[/quote:857763881c]

Isn't that the truth!?!?

 

[alwaysreforming]

I think PastorWay hit the nail right on the head:
"The closer we walk with God the more of our own sinfulness we see. "

This is why we see Paul expressing himself as he did: the chief of sinners, never doing the good he wants to do, etc.
as well as living his life in such a manner as, as far as the eye can see, is pretty darn close to perfect!

He may have been EXTREMELY close to God, perhaps more so than any other person (conjecture on my part), and to OUR eye we might conclude: "Wow! This guy is a 'saint!' He must NEVER sin!"

But to Paul, because he was SO aware of God's grace, and God's Holiness, he saw himself in comparison with that divine majesty and perfect purity which is God alone, and he paled in comparison! Probably the least of sin in thought or motive, was to him such a huge black stain on his heart because he was in such proximity to the Light of God!

 

[turmeric]

Anthony Hoekema says in [u:d51a44e8d7]Created in God's Image[/u:d51a44e8d7] and in his essay in [u:d51a44e8d7]5 Views of Sanctification[/u:d51a44e8d7] that Romans 7 is about an unbeliever. Not sure I agree, for one thing, Jacob Arminius thought so too.

 

[staythecourse]

Appreciate it Pastor Way,

Since Paul says that he is currently a sinner ("chief" in his case and he wasn't using false humility which blows me away) he sinned. Seems like a no-brainer but I was looking for a case outside of this text (like Peter falling into showing preference to the Jews in Acts) to say he sinned.

If he was that tormented by his sin how could he function??? Sounds like Luther beating himself! When I get discouraged by sin or doubt it is HARD to get up again. I wish I could get the same attitude Paul had about the whole thing rather than be a moping Christian looking at myself. How do I get a clearer picture of Christ and His love and grace? Give me more, Jesus! Amen!