RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
John 12
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
My question, when did that now take place. Satan is dethroned.
Paul's Gospel and Caesar's Empire
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John 12
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
My question, when did that now take place. Satan is dethroned.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
No, every world government is doomed. What frightens me is the vehemence the sword that can be used in the name of Christ. It doesn't sting as bad if a non-professing man kills me, but a "brother's" sword really stings.
God is sovereign. Christ crushed Satan at the cross. Christ's kingdom shall expand from shore to shore. Satan's kingdom shall do the opposite.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Again, you are seeing a man meeting an entire different world-view (or present time view). "Will be" has not happened yet. How do you explain the evil in the world if Satan's in Hell or whatever?
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Of course the sword can be used in the name of Christ, read Romans 13. If you mean that we believe in conversion with the sword, then that is something I totally repudiate.
Remember if it is not Christians administering Biblical justice, it will probably be humanists legislating tyranny.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
God is sovereign. Christ crushed Satan at the cross. Christ's kingdom shall expand from shore to shore. Satan's kingdom shall do the opposite.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
I joined the Plymouth Brethren almost immediately after my conversion. They helped me greatly on some things but seriously messed me up on others. One issue was that of who controlled the world. After a long struggle I saw that they were wrong. Upon completing uni I started working for an organisation that sought to lobby Parliament and the Wednesday after I started I was handed a booklet saying why Christians should not get involved in politics. Needless to say I ignored them on that.
God is sovereign. Christ crushed Satan at the cross. Christ's kingdom shall expand from shore to shore. Satan's kingdom shall do the opposite.
Are you saying Satan's kingdom is shrinking? There seems to be more evil now than ever in both the Christian world and the Pagan (non saved, non elect) world.
Now, believe me, I am putting myself in your shoes. If I heard a professing believer say that and I held your view I would be angry and impatient, so bear with me here. I certainly want both of us to have the same King and being completely victorious over every last bit of sin stained earth we have.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
I joined the Plymouth Brethren almost immediately after my conversion. They helped me greatly on some things but seriously messed me up on others. One issue was that of who controlled the world. After a long struggle I saw that they were wrong. Upon completing uni I started working for an organisation that sought to lobby Parliament and the Wednesday after I started I was handed a booklet saying why Christians should not get involved in politics. Needless to say I ignored them on that.
God is sovereign. Christ crushed Satan at the cross. Christ's kingdom shall expand from shore to shore. Satan's kingdom shall do the opposite.
Are you saying Satan's kingdom is shrinking? There seems to be more evil now than ever in both the Christian world and the Pagan (non saved, non elect) world.
Now, believe me, I am potting myself in your shoes. If I heard a professing believer say that and I held your view I would be angry and impatient, so bear with me here. I certainly want both of us to have the same King and being completely victorious over every last bit of sin stained earth we have.
What he means is over the course of history Christ's kingdom defeats Satan's. This does not mean that there will not be times when the kingdom of darkness appears to prosper. Moreover, is the world really worse now than when Christianity first appeared on the scene. The reason things are so bad in the west is because we have forsaken Christianity, but it was Christianity which made us great in the first place.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Bear with me. I will read Romans 13 again but I see Paul talking to Christians under a pagan government at that very writing so Christian or humanist government the rules still apply.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
The same rules still apply to both, though a Christian civil government is more likely to obey them.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Man, I will have to mull that over. I will say (and I am laughing at myself and my own sinful disposition of "glass 1/2 full" mentality) that is mighty optimistic of you (and those who hold that view). It seems like you (and I say this nicely and humbly) you would be wearing rose-colored glasses to hope things are, continually, are getting better in the world governement.
As an aside, I have not read Augustine's City of God but would his book apply here?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Now means now (e.g., when Jesus spoke it). Now does not mean "will be."
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
I am not saying that things are continually getting better in the world, but that over the course of world history Christ's kingdom triumphs over the kingdom of man; notwithstanding the fact that we in the west live in a time of great apostasy from the truth.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Augustine the philosopher and theologian is brilliant. Augustine the exegete...well, you'll see. Fortunately, his argument doesn't often depend on his exegesis.
Yes, it would apply here and in some ways it will be better than us throwing scriptures at each other. You need to change the way you view history. Your view of history has Satan in charge. You fear theonomy. I fear Satanic-controlled histories. Augustine takes care of that.
Anyway, City of God is Al Mohler's most influential book.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
I'm laughing again. He says both "Now" becuase I have wounded him on the head with a mortal wound be having died on the cross, "Satan will" in the future, be cast out (after the age of the Gentiles for example.)
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Guys, This is busting me up. I have never seen such a difference in views and I happen to be part of it. I consider you my brothers but this, to me, is astounding.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Um...*scratching head*...the "now" controls the time-referents. This is common-sense grammar. Your last clause is pure assertion and almost violence to the text.
It is like me saying, "Now I will go to sleep. Now I will get off the computer."
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
If it helps, the views we are propounding has been, broadly speaking, the view of the Church (whether Protestant, Roman, or Greek) for 1700 years. The millennial debate isn't important (whether post or a). The important thing is what we are propounding--an Augustinian view of history.
As Daniel said, the general trend is that it shall shrink. I am convinced that too many Western Christians take the current state of their country as what is happenning globally. If my eschatology was based upon the state of UK Christianity I would be very pessimistic indeed. Yet when we look globally we see thousands-upon-thousands of conversions in Africa, China and South America.
But of course our theology should be based upon Scripture, not our experience:
Psalms:
“All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you.” - Psalm 22.27
“O you who hears prayer, to you shall all flesh come…
By awesome deeds you answer us with righteousness,
O God of our salvation,
the hope of all the ends of the earth
and of the farthest seas.” - Psalm 65.2, 5
“All the nations you have made shall come
and worship before you O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.” - Psalm 86.9
“Nations will fear the name of the LORD,
and all the kings of the earth will fear your glory.” - Psalm 102.15
“All the kings of the earth shall give you thanks, O LORD,
for they have heard the words of your mouth,
and they shall sing of the ways of the LORD,
for great is the glory of the LORD.” - Psalm 138.4
“Let the peoples praise you , O God; let all the peoples praise you! Let the nations be glad and sing for joy.” Psalm 67.3-4
“May he [God's king] have dominion from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth!
May desert tribes bow down before him
and his enemies lick the dust!
May the kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands
render him tribute;
may the kinds of Sheba and Seba bring gifts!
May all kings fall down before him,
all nations serve him.” -Psalm 72.8-11
“O you who hears prayer, to you shall all flesh come…
By awesome deeds you answer us with righteousness,
O God of our salvation,
the hope of all the ends of the earth
and of the farthest seas.” - Psalm 65.2, 5
“All the nations you have made shall come
and worship before you O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.” - Psalm 86.9
“Nations will fear the name of the LORD,
and all the kings of the earth will fear your glory.” - Psalm 102.15
“All the kings of the earth shall give you thanks, O LORD,
for they have heard the words of your mouth,
and they shall sing of the ways of the LORD,
for great is the glory of the LORD.” - Psalm 138.4
“Let the peoples praise you , O God; let all the peoples praise you! Let the nations be glad and sing for joy.” Psalm 67.3-4
“May he [God's king] have dominion from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth!
May desert tribes bow down before him
and his enemies lick the dust!
May the kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands
render him tribute;
may the kinds of Sheba and Seba bring gifts!
May all kings fall down before him,
all nations serve him.” -Psalm 72.8-11
Isaiah:
“It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
and many peoples shall come, and say:
Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.” - Isaiah 2.2-3
“For to us a child is born…
Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end.” - Isaiah 9.6, 7
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
and many peoples shall come, and say:
Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.” - Isaiah 2.2-3
“For to us a child is born…
Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end.” - Isaiah 9.6, 7
“The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples - of him shall the nations enquire.” - Isaiah 11.9-10
“I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,
to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers:
“Kings shall see and arise;
princes, and they shall prostrate themselves.”
“Kings shall be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
With their faces to the ground, they shall bow down to you,
and lick the dust of your feet.”" - Isaiah 49.6-7, 23
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,
to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers:
“Kings shall see and arise;
princes, and they shall prostrate themselves.”
“Kings shall be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
With their faces to the ground, they shall bow down to you,
and lick the dust of your feet.”" - Isaiah 49.6-7, 23
Jeremiah:
“At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart.” - Jeremiah 3.17
Daniel:
“As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces… But the stone that struck the image became a mountain and filled the whole earth… The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed.” - Daniel 2.34, 35, 44
In Zechariah:
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities. The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the favour of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.’ Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favour of the LORD.” - Zechariah 8.20-22
In Malachi:
“For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.” - Malachi 1.11
Jesus gives us parables of the kingdom indicating that it will grow:
“‘The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.’ He told them another parable. ‘The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.’” - Matthew 13.31-33
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Brothers, I am sober now because I hold a view that may not be correct. I had to do a paper on "the man of lawlessness" and "the coming out of the midst" could be read as coming out of the midst of the church.
So, the apostasy I (repeat I) see that you see too prepares the soil for the anti-Christ. That is why I get really nervous about any type of theonomy. IT becomes popish/beast-like in my understanding and prepares the way for THE beast and trib.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
BOth of us grew up in America with English as a native language brother. YOu know as well as I that if a person accents "Now" you have your rendereing and "Will" another.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
The Beast is a humanistic totalitarian government; Theonomy is opposed to totalitarian humanistic civil government, therefore, Theonomy is the very thing you should embrace in order to oppose what you are afraid off.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
You need to read a few theonomists before you misrepresent them. The view you are saying theonomy holds to presupposes big govt.
Theonomy advocates extremely limited govt. Even if they wanted to do all those meany things you think they will, they simply will not have the resources to carry them out.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
I am not sure where in the world you are talking about, but we have missionaries in China (one continuing his ed at seminary right now and attends our church now. I speak with him when I can as I was there too) who says the pastors in China are freaked (ok filled with grave legitimate concern) at Christianity drying up as China becomes Westernized with materialism and views that now include homosexuality being fine (way against their culture 20 years ago)
So, I see that the last days will be like the days of Noah with only a few believers, not many.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
I am going to read the posts more thoroughly now and see what's been said.
Appreciate the conversation men
Appreciate the conversation men
Then perhaps interact with Scripture for our theology should be based upon Scripture, not our experience:
Psalms:
“All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you.” - Psalm 22.27
“O you who hears prayer, to you shall all flesh come…
By awesome deeds you answer us with righteousness,
O God of our salvation,
the hope of all the ends of the earth
and of the farthest seas.” - Psalm 65.2, 5
“All the nations you have made shall come
and worship before you O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.” - Psalm 86.9
“Nations will fear the name of the LORD,
and all the kings of the earth will fear your glory.” - Psalm 102.15
“All the kings of the earth shall give you thanks, O LORD,
for they have heard the words of your mouth,
and they shall sing of the ways of the LORD,
for great is the glory of the LORD.” - Psalm 138.4
“Let the peoples praise you , O God; let all the peoples praise you! Let the nations be glad and sing for joy.” Psalm 67.3-4
“May he [God's king] have dominion from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth!
May desert tribes bow down before him
and his enemies lick the dust!
May the kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands
render him tribute;
may the kinds of Sheba and Seba bring gifts!
May all kings fall down before him,
all nations serve him.” -Psalm 72.8-11
“O you who hears prayer, to you shall all flesh come…
By awesome deeds you answer us with righteousness,
O God of our salvation,
the hope of all the ends of the earth
and of the farthest seas.” - Psalm 65.2, 5
“All the nations you have made shall come
and worship before you O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.” - Psalm 86.9
“Nations will fear the name of the LORD,
and all the kings of the earth will fear your glory.” - Psalm 102.15
“All the kings of the earth shall give you thanks, O LORD,
for they have heard the words of your mouth,
and they shall sing of the ways of the LORD,
for great is the glory of the LORD.” - Psalm 138.4
“Let the peoples praise you , O God; let all the peoples praise you! Let the nations be glad and sing for joy.” Psalm 67.3-4
“May he [God's king] have dominion from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth!
May desert tribes bow down before him
and his enemies lick the dust!
May the kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands
render him tribute;
may the kinds of Sheba and Seba bring gifts!
May all kings fall down before him,
all nations serve him.” -Psalm 72.8-11
Isaiah:
“It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
and many peoples shall come, and say:
Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.” - Isaiah 2.2-3
“For to us a child is born…
Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end.” - Isaiah 9.6, 7
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
and many peoples shall come, and say:
Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.” - Isaiah 2.2-3
“For to us a child is born…
Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end.” - Isaiah 9.6, 7
“The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples - of him shall the nations enquire.” - Isaiah 11.9-10
“I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,
to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers:
“Kings shall see and arise;
princes, and they shall prostrate themselves.”
“Kings shall be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
With their faces to the ground, they shall bow down to you,
and lick the dust of your feet.”" - Isaiah 49.6-7, 23
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,
to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers:
“Kings shall see and arise;
princes, and they shall prostrate themselves.”
“Kings shall be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
With their faces to the ground, they shall bow down to you,
and lick the dust of your feet.”" - Isaiah 49.6-7, 23
Jeremiah:
“At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart.” - Jeremiah 3.17
Daniel:
“As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces… But the stone that struck the image became a mountain and filled the whole earth… The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed.” - Daniel 2.34, 35, 44
In Zechariah:
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities. The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the favour of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.’ Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favour of the LORD.” - Zechariah 8.20-22
In Malachi:
“For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.” - Malachi 1.11
Jesus gives us parables of the kingdom indicating that it will grow:
“‘The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.’ He told them another parable. ‘The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.’” - Matthew 13.31-33
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Exactly. The reason I did not embrace Theonomy earlier was because I had been given this straw-man that they wanted to literally impose all Mosaic judicail laws. When I found out what they really taught the whole idea made so much more sense. The same is true in this case. If you are afraid of big civil government you are not far from being a Theonomist.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Who gets to define "few?" God told Abram that he would make his descendants like the sand on the seashore. Not exactly few.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Well, brother, what about when they did have a limited gov't in the Anglican church (wasn't world-wide I mean) We Baptists got the sharp end of the blade (among other non-conformists)
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