Paying Pastor and and Paying for Spiritual Material
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Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
Perhaps sometimes. But I suspect a far more common scenario is this:
An overworked pastor badly needs a vacation. He picks a destination, but word gets out that he's coming, or out of courtesy he lets a church there know. He gets asked to preach, and since he knows the pastor of that church also badly needs a break, he agrees to spend part of his vacation reviewing an old sermon and preaching. He receives a modest honorarium, which causes someone to suspect the whole thing is a side hustle and to complain that the churches are not getting enough effort for what they pay their pastors. The overworked pastor just gets more discouraged.
TheInquirer
Puritan Board Junior
Jack, I was speaking to a specific context and group and was told that the way I described it was how it worked in that particular context. I will withhold any further details publicly.
iainduguid
Puritan Board Junior
Bill, if you wish to continue the debate it might be helpful if you presented an alternative exegesis of the relevant passages. Are you really arguing that local pastors should never be paid by their churches but should always support themselves through another profession? That would be a position contrary to the Westminster Standards and the historic practice of all reformed churches of which I am aware, including your own RPCNA. But perhaps I have misunderstood you. Could you clarify?
Ligonier Ministries often provides works for free or at a reduced cost. They also make works available online at no cost. Grace to You is similar. One thing that both ministries do well is to provide an efficient distribution chain for works that benefit Christians. Both ministries have boards that provide spiritual and financial oversight. This is a topic where Christian liberty comes into play. If a person has a scruple against purchasing published material from a pastor or ministry, they can refrain from purchasing.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Now just imagine Jesus or The Apostles charging anything for their work. I personally can not imagine Jesus having a conference with toll takers at the gates or charging anything for The Gospel outside the context of the official church.
I would like to say I AM NOT SAYING a Pastor is not to be paid for Ministering to the sheep. What I am saying a Pastor should be supported by the sheep in the context of a local church...or at least a Presbytery. A case in point would be is how I love how the OPC does missions (supported by the OPC) vs. the PCA which most times has the missionary ask for donations.
Now I understand what I am saying is shocking to many hear but just imaging if Jesus, The Apostles or any Ministry before the turn of the last century doing what we do today as seen below. I understand times are different, but should they be that different?
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earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Just to be clear my intent was not to disparage Chris from asking permission which I think is proper. I had nothing in my mind that David VanDruden would be holding on to that article for only paid customers to read.
Agreed, but someone somewhere is paying for the man-hours and materials needed to make such affordable access possible. Is it the Lord's intention that "other men be eased, and ye be burdened?" No, "But by an equality..." (2 Cor 8:13,14)
The bottom line is that all of us should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Doesn't each of us want a fair compensation for our work that we may be good stewards of what God has given us? Then we should want that for our pastors and teachers (and the publishers) as well.
Bill The Baptist
Puritan Board Graduate
I’m certainly not arguing that these resources are not beneficial, I’m just wondering if a pastor is truly living up to their calling if their endeavors have led them to being millionaires. I’m honestly not making any judgment, I’m just wondering.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I believe ministries like Ligonier and Grace to You have every right to charge for their material. After all, it costs money to make these resources available. My point is that in addition to items they sell, they also discount items or offer them for free. It's not all about the money.
It's a stretch to go from having a work published to being a millionaire. Once we start judging motives and bank statements the problem becomes ours, not the ones we are questioning. I know you say you are not judging, just wondering, but I think wondering can be a subtle way of tipping our hand. Do any of us have a valid reason to even wonder about the motives of renowned authors such as the late R.C. Sproul, or John MacArthur and John Piper? For that matter, what of the pastor who labors in relative obscurity who has been blessed with the opportunity to be published?
Matthew 7:20 state, "So then, you will know them by their fruits." This is the tale of the tape. If the man of God is in ministry for the purpose of turning a dollar, what type of fruit will he produce? If his motive is to proclaim the Gospel and to see the saints mature in their faith, won't that yield better fruit?
I am in agreement with you. It is not all about the money.
However, when Ligonier discounts their materials, the loss is covered by someone. Someone is being 'burdened' so that the consumer can be 'eased'. That may be merciful, but it is not just.
Chris, the thread may have strayed a bit, but I don't think we should close it prematurely. You started the thread about whether it is permissible for a pastor to be paid for things outside of his normal pastoral duties (i.e. a "spiritual journal"). Some pastors are paid or receive honorariums for writing articles, officiating weddings, and marriage counseling. As long as we're not roasting each other over hot coals, I think a decision like this causes us to check our understanding and motives. It's possible for a pastor to become so involved with earning money that his ministry suffers. But there are plenty of pastors who are tent-makers; working full or part-time jobs because their congregation can't support them. When we discuss organizations like Grace to You, Ligonier, or Banner of Truth, we're focusing on organizations that are gospel-oriented, but fall outside the scope of a local church. The organizations provide valuable resources to the church and individuals. Much of the content produced by these organizations is authored by pastors. That's the connection. Some pastors choose to donate what they've written and some are paid. Is that for us to judge? If we do judge, what is our motive for doing so? Could there be some latent jealousy at play? I think the questions we ask and the answers/conclusions we come up with reveal more about ourselves than the one we're asking questions about.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
This line sums up my thoughts. How can a Pastor claim an article that is teaching something about spiritual matters be considered "outside" his duties. The dichotomy in thinking such goes beyond my thinking.
I wrote outside his "normal" pastoral duties.This line sums up my thoughts. How can a Pastor claim an article that is teaching something about spiritual matters be considered "outside" his duties. The dichotomy in thinking such goes beyond my thinking.
This line sums up my thoughts. How can a Pastor claim an article that is teaching something about spiritual matters be considered "outside" his duties. The dichotomy in thinking such goes beyond my thinking.
That gets somewhere. It's a question of duty, and scope of duty.
Consider an example: a pastor is engaged by a local church to preach, teach, and do all the local things a pastor ought to do.
Someone asks him, in his spare time, to compile his Romans series into a book. It takes time. After it is published, people write him with their own personal problems, he graciously writes back. Some now call upon him to compile other sermons.
Meanwhile, he is continually fulfilling his original duties with his local church. I sounds like you would be OK with him receiving compensation for his additional efforts that occur outside of his original duties.
Assuming it is true that "the labourer is worthy of his hire," research, writing, editing, publishing, and distribution come with a cost. When spiritual material is given at a discount, someone somewhere is being burdened--someone is not receiving what they are worthy of receiving.
I gladly and willingly spent 10 years as a 'tent-making' pastor. I did not receive what I was worthy of receiving. I was burdened while others were eased. I was happy to do it, but it was not ideal according to 1 Cor. 9:14.
Charity is a virtue, but so is justice. A Christian is not in sin when he requires a just wage for services rendered.
Ken,
I don't mean to appear obtuse, but who is being burdened? If wages due are being paid by a non-profit, who is on the short end of the stick? Answer: no one. Non-profits are supposed to direct all revenue to operations. This includes payroll, utilities, license fees etc. If a non-profit provides something at a discount, or even free, so long as their expenses are covered, no one suffers. I guess I'm just not following your logic.
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It is not important. I am in agreement with you.
TheInquirer
Puritan Board Junior
Costs of services need to be covered. Conferences can be expensive to put on. Additionally, if they are using the profits from the conferences to help extend their ministry elsewhere and/or absorb the cost of the free material they put out, I personally have no problem whatsoever with those modest charges. btw, Ligonier Connect is ridiculously cheap for what they are offering.
If he still lives in the same house he did 15 years ago when I walked by it, Piper lives in one of the poorest sections of Minneapolis in a corner house right above the freeway. It is my understanding that he doesn't personally receive any book royalties but they go into the non-profit. He also frequently holds garage sales to sell extra things (a friend of mine went to his church for many years and knew him).
Now, compare that approach to wealth with John MacArthur, who in 2015, according to Charity Navigator, was paid nearly $250,000 from Grace to You alone:
https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5877
From someone I know who worked at his house, he lives in a VERY nice place in a very nice neighborhood (unless he has moved since then).
Are the donors who give to Grace to You really interested in all that extra money going into MacArthur's pocket? Is that really why they are giving?
I understand these kinds of questions are for the board of directors but MacArthur happens to be the CEO and chairman of the board. I understand that for CEO pay this is pretty meager, but add in his normal pastor salary, royalties, and whatever else, is that kind of salary from GTY really necessary?
Of course, MacArthur isn't a normal pastor and I would probably bet most pastors are underpaid and under appreciated.
If he still lives in the same house he did 15 years ago when I walked by it, Piper lives in one of the poorest sections of Minneapolis in a corner house right above the freeway. It is my understanding that he doesn't personally receive any book royalties but they go into the non-profit. He also frequently holds garage sales to sell extra things (a friend of mine went to his church for many years and knew him).
Now, compare that approach to wealth with John MacArthur, who in 2015, according to Charity Navigator, was paid nearly $250,000 from Grace to You alone:
https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5877
From someone I know who worked at his house, he lives in a VERY nice place in a very nice neighborhood (unless he has moved since then).
Are the donors who give to Grace to You really interested in all that extra money going into MacArthur's pocket? Is that really why they are giving?
I understand these kinds of questions are for the board of directors but MacArthur happens to be the CEO and chairman of the board. I understand that for CEO pay this is pretty meager, but add in his normal pastor salary, royalties, and whatever else, is that kind of salary from GTY really necessary?
Of course, MacArthur isn't a normal pastor and I would probably bet most pastors are underpaid and under appreciated.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I would consider writing articles (teaching), and marriage counseling as normal pastoral duties. Did Luther, Calvin, Augustine charge for the writing they did? I understand time are different, but I strongly suspect they would not charge or expect extra compensation for their duties they may have done outside of their local congregation.
Correct me if I am wrong if this phenomena (being paid for writing books or a pamphlet) has some history beyond the past 70 or so years.
Earl, I see this issue completely different from you and some others in this thread. If my pastor decides to write a commentary on the book of Habakkuk, and the writing of that book does not in any way take away from his pastoral duties, what grounds do I have to object? If he contracts with a publisher and is paid royalties on book sales, so what? What is the problem? I do not think that going back to 16th Century practices among Reformation-period preachers and theologians has any relevance. We are not discussing a theological controversy. If you can show me where a pastor is allowing greed and avarice to corrupt his calling, then we have something to talk about.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I am simply stating in my opinion Ministry is not a business. I understand I am in the minority, and the lack of history of such I believe is relevant.
Correction! There were different mechanisms by which people got paid for their labor in producing books, but some form of compensation for an author is not at all unusual. For example, C.H. Spurgeon not only was paid £50 for his book The Saint and His Saviour, but decided not to have more to do with that publisher when he realized that what they paid him was in no proportion to what they made from selling the book. Spurgeon was publishing books by 1855, so well before your time limit. Indeed, it was the revenue from the sale of his printed sermons that enabled him to secure the freehold of a house. (See Autobiography of C.H. Spurgeon, 2:179 & 306-307.)
In general, instincts, feelings, or preferences are poor substitutes for investigations of fact.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
I've been thinking about offering some trenchant and insightful historical and theological comments on this subject, but will do so only if compensated. 
The mods know how to get in touch with my agent.
Peace,
Alan
The mods know how to get in touch with my agent.
Peace,
Alan
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
After the first edition published in London in 1675, it was not a publisher but Mrs. Durham who sought the right to import the work into Scotland, as once a printer published a work they assumed the right to perpetually publish it (Milton proves the growing demise of this practice for Paradise Lost). Mrs. Durham was granted the right for import and any other printing of it prohibited in Scotland. Subsequently two printers published several editions. Patronage was still the main avenue for book publishing as the seventeenth century opened and few formal contracts survive that show what the practice was. But generally an author would have been paid some not particularly significant fee and or some copies. This article on payment of authors in the Seventeenth Century is my source generally for the above; see the introduction to Durham on the ten commandments regarding his wife's petittion.
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