PC(USA) recent statistics

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kodos

Puritan Board Junior
The growth of the EPC slowed down, down,

That's because EPC are too conservative for most of the folks left in the PCUSA. Churches leaving now are pretty much single issue. They'll put up with just about anything else.

EPC had a shorter window of rapid growth than did the PCA. They are now going to have to grow organically. Maybe we can send them a few PCA congregations to help.

I know I say this each time this is brought up, but I do not think most confessional Reformed people understand how theologically liberal (and ignorant) the conservatives in the PC(USA) are.

The way I see it is this - if "gay marriage" was the straw that broke the camel's back for your church to leave the PCUSA, then your local church is either ignorant theologically, or hasn't been paying attention. Either way it is unlikely to be attracted to Confessional Presbyterianism.
 

Nicholas Perella

Puritan Board Freshman
The growth of the EPC slowed down, down,

That's because EPC are too conservative for most of the folks left in the PCUSA. Churches leaving now are pretty much single issue. They'll put up with just about anything else.

EPC had a shorter window of rapid growth than did the PCA. They are now going to have to grow organically. Maybe we can send them a few PCA congregations to help.

I know I say this each time this is brought up, but I do not think most confessional Reformed people understand how theologically liberal (and ignorant) the conservatives in the PC(USA) are.

The way I see it is this - if "gay marriage" was the straw that broke the camel's back for your church to leave the PCUSA, then your local church is either ignorant theologically, or hasn't been paying attention. Either way it is unlikely to be attracted to Confessional Presbyterianism.

From the circles in which my wife and I walked, they are in the dark. They really do not know what is happening or what is out there. A lot of times they do not even know what denomination they belong to. They just have this vague notion that there are other churches because they see their buildings on the side of the road. The leaders that I came across try to pep talk, get people's spirits up (get them to smile), make them feel proud and entertained, talk about color coding for the walls in the sanctuary to attract people and make them feel good, etc.... Yes that last one was a whole sermon by somebody I call the 'false pastor'. His sermon was all about how colors make you feel a certain way and they need to think about what kind of colors they have inside the building because this would be a way to attract people. If I remember correctly, he went on and on about how he learned this in college, and said restaurants use this tactic, etc.... [There was a time after we had left this false church that I would listen to their sermon's from the web-audio just to hear what they were preaching currently]. If you hear any semblance of the gospel it might take a few weeks and it usually is just 'Christ died for our sins' and after saying that once or twice then back to the regularly scheduled program about what they need to do and how they need to love others, what kind of decorations they could put up, or I remember a sermon that was about the most important thing you will ever need in your life. It will make your life better and is important than anything else... I was at the edge of my seat in the suspense - preparation. Yes - preparation. Then the sermon went on about good preparation and how students prepare for SAT's, etc....

edit: Sometimes I think when churches do leave the PCUSA it may be not so much the voice in the church that is the loudest. It is the public square that might have the loudest voice. In other words, when it is politicized then some people are woken up to an issue and pick a side. The PCUSA is very political. Has been for over a century. There is a good article in the Confessional Presbyterian about the politics of the PCUSA. Currently their general assembly has lobbying groups and such that via for power to legislate their agenda. They look more like the floor of Congress than a church assembly. So watch for the next hot topic in the U.S. nation that might seem related to religion and that might indicate why the next stats fall the way they do.
 
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Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
They all have conservative congregations and orthodox people. But, whether from ignorance, denial, wishful thinking, or willful blindness to reality, they stick with their denominational "family" in all of its dysfunctional splendor.

A conservative congregation in the PC(USA) are liberal in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the PCA. Only it can be fit in ECO or EPC. Or it would have a conservative pastor who le the congregation back to their forefathers.
 

DMcFadden

Puritanboard Commissioner
Most denominations have a "range" of attitudes that can be plotted on a continuum. In my former group, the head of the denomination believed it to be 10% hard left, 10% hard right, and everyone else in the middle. In my current synod, it is claimed to be 20% missional, 20% confessional, and the rest in the middle. Regardless of the continuum (theological, sociological, or political), bureaucrats tend to think in terms of those to the left (on whatever issue) and those on the right as the ones who will make noise objecting to denominational stands, policies, and priorities.

In 1995 I conducted a social science study as part of a dissertation project in organizational management. It confirmed what other studies have shown: denominational bureaucrats in most mainline groups are more liberal than pastors; pastors are more liberal than lay persons. (An old SBC study once demonstrated that education correlated with theological drift left, the more graduate study a person had, the more likely to take non-conservative theological views).

Denominations are "run" by bureaucrats with extra advanced degrees and elected posts tend to be over represented with more liberal clergy from smaller congregations (church politics is their most "significant" service in their minds). In such a world, it is not uncommon for the politics and pronouncements of the headquarters (including their publications) to be left of center while significant numbers of congregations (and certainly lay persons) hold to the views formerly associated with the denomination.

I would not be surprised if there were quite a few folks in the PCUSA that could be considered conservative, despite their liberal head office. That is certainly true of groups like the UMC and the ABC. Both groups have a solidly "progressive" rep which is richly deserved by their actions on such issues as homosexuality, feminism, abortion, etc. Yet each of those groups has significant numbers of conservatives who are as conservative as any broad evangelical might be. THE UMC, for example, has a very strong evangelical renewal group opposed to the liberalism in that denomination. And, I know of dispensational, KJVO, and nearly landmarkist congregations in some of the ABC regions.
 

Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
Yes you are right. Even in the United Church of Christ, about 20% of their churches considered itself "conservative"
 

Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
The UCC is the most liberal denomination in the United States, theologically similar than the PC(USA).

In 2020 Episcopal Church USA + PC(USA) + UCC = Protestant Church USA (a joint eumenical denomination in 2020)
 

DCAF

Puritan Board Freshman
The growth of the EPC slowed down, down,

That's because EPC are too conservative for most of the folks left in the PCUSA. Churches leaving now are pretty much single issue. They'll put up with just about anything else.

EPC had a shorter window of rapid growth than did the PCA. They are now going to have to grow organically. Maybe we can send them a few PCA congregations to help.

I know I say this each time this is brought up, but I do not think most confessional Reformed people understand how theologically liberal (and ignorant) the conservatives in the PC(USA) are.

The way I see it is this - if "gay marriage" was the straw that broke the camel's back for your church to leave the PCUSA, then your local church is either ignorant theologically, or hasn't been paying attention. Either way it is unlikely to be attracted to Confessional Presbyterianism.

I know of a United Church of Canada congregation that accepted a minister who denied the resurrection, but still refuses to call a homosexual. I mean guys, how do you see the latter as a problem but not the former? :banghead:
 
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DCAF

Puritan Board Freshman
I don't know much about the United Church in Canada.

The United Church in Canada is ultra-left. e.g. Their moderator denied the resurrections over 20 years ago, and they were ordaining homosexuals earlier than that.

Despite that they still have a few conservatives kicking around in their pews.
 

Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
I saw the United Church in Canada is a result of a merger of the Congregational Church, the Methodist Church and the 2/3 of the Presbyterian Church. The remaining Presbyterian Church of Canada is ordaining homosexuals too? Similar to the PCUSA?
 

Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
The Presbyterian Church of Canada had 900,000 members in 1925, when the majority formed United Church of Canada, in 2014 it had 200,000 members. Just like the PC(USA)
 

Captain Picard

Puritan Board Freshman
I don't know much about the United Church in Canada.

The United Church in Canada is ultra-left. e.g. Their moderator denied the resurrections over 20 years ago, and they were ordaining homosexuals earlier than that.

Despite that they still have a few conservatives kicking around in their pews.

I simply do not understand the motivations there. For those not aware, in most places, Roman Catholicism is now three religions more or less. 1) a tiny faction of people who believe all or most of Vatican II was a mistake at best. Latin masses, no one who is not explicitly catholic could ever go to heaven, Trent is the word of god, etc. 2) Neoconservatives, probably a majority of the organization today. These guys will simply affirm whatever the last thing the current pope said, either directly or by turning some liberal mush into something RC orthodox-sounding by mental gymnastics. These are people who believe much of what RC used to teach historically, but would rather have a worldview of self-contradictory nonsense then believe the Vatican could ever be defective in any sense. 3) 'Liberal catholics', in other words secular humanist agnostics with a fetish for old hippies in funny hats.

The absolutely maddening thing to me when I was RC was the ubiquitous presence of high volumes of the neocons in parishes run by Lib-Cath 'priests'. Usually the "masses" would consist of 80's camp-style cultural entertainment fests run by a mincing and obvious aging homosexual giving a brief "sermon" on "the gospel of diversity" and then pantomiming transubstantiation among an espiscopalian-style "celebration" featuring much hand holding and songs written in the sixties to "celebrate oneness" (usually with half the verses in spanish for the twenty-plus illegal immigrants the parish was deliberately harboring).

I avoided such places like the plague, but at least once a week I found my self asking a neocon in utter anguish "what do you GET out of that?"

Praise God for the wealth of the Spirit in the Gospel and in the Reformed tradition of worship.
 

DCAF

Puritan Board Freshman
I saw the United Church in Canada is a result of a merger of the Congregational Church, the Methodist Church and the 2/3 of the Presbyterian Church. The remaining Presbyterian Church of Canada is ordaining homosexuals too? Similar to the PCUSA?

I believe the PCC ordains celibate homosexuals, but not practicing ones.
 

DCAF

Puritan Board Freshman
Has the PCA church planting efforts in Canada?

Yes. By my count there are about 15 established congregations and half a dozen church plants in Canada. Of course, this is not enough. There are still entire provinces without any Reformed presence whatsoever.
 

Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
I saw on the PCA Church directory that these churches concentrated in Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, ans New Brunswick.

Saskatchewan is listen but no congregation there, Quebec is not listed.

There was plants there but failed, or no not. Saskatchewan is listed, but no PCA church Why?
 

Calvinbeza

Puritan Board Freshman
Yes, but with limited success. I remember efforts in Quebec some years ago. Nothing there now.

I heard that PCA churches in Quebec become part of the Reformed Church in Quebec when it was created.
 
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